Let's clear up the Eschatology Scripture?

[vinsight4u]

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[Straightshot]

"The 7th trumpet comes at the end of the great tribulation"


Nay .... the 7th judgment begins to sound before the ending of the tribulation .... many events will occur between

And it is not the last trumpet .... this trumpet is the last and will sound after the days of the tribulation

The purpose will be to gather the surviving mortals of Israel to enter and populate the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11: 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]


"The first six trumpets were not His wrath"


Yes they are .... all 7 are His

Where do you think the judgments are coming from .... do you know that the Lord's has angels who bring them .... read your bible

This is the beginning of the tribulation [Revelation 6:12-17; 8]

Who do you think the "Lamb" is .... and what does "wrath" mean

This One is going to pound the earth with His unprecedented judgments for 2550 days .... and then He will appear upon the earth to bring His millennial kingdom

Get your ES straightened out

 

[LastSeven]

Straightshot, notwithstanding all the points you made, do you see where it says that God the father and his Christ begin their reign which lasts forever and ever? When do you think this reign begins?

 

[Douggg]

There's no indication at all in Revelation 11 that there's a 42 month delay. In fact the wording is such that as the trumpet sounds, God's reign begins. "Instantaneously" may not be the right word (although it might be) but I would say at least on that very day God's reign begins.

EDIT: Actually I want to change my response because the passage does say "you have taken your great power and have begun to reign" so this is actually past tense. Which means there is definitely no 42 month delay.

But in Revelation 11, there are none of the bowl judgements, no 666 buy/sell, no massive persecution of them who reject the beast, no armageddon , etc.... before the 7th trumpet is blown. The 7th trumpet actually signals the war in heaven take place, and Satan's dominion over earth, cast down, the beginning of the end mystery babylon the great.

The only thing known for certain regarding the timing of the death's of the two witnesses, that because the person is the beast, he will have been killed and brought back to life, as the beast - which he then make war against the two witnesses that have been prophesying to the Jewish people what was going to happen with their perceived messiah.

1260days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (containing the time, times, half times) = the 7 years.

 

[LastSeven]

But in Revelation 11, there are none of the bowl judgements, no 666 buy/sell, no massive persecution of them who reject the beast, no armageddon , etc.... before the 7th trumpet is blown. The 7th trumpet actually signals the war in heaven take place, and Satan's dominion over earth, cast down, the beginning of the end mystery babylon the great.

The only thing known for certain regarding the timing of the death's of the two witnesses, that because the person is the beast, he will have been killed and brought back to life, as the beast - which he then make war against the two witnesses that have been prophesying to the Jewish people what was going to happen with their perceived messiah.

1260days + 3 1/2 days + 42 months (containing the time, times, half times) = the 7 years.

You continue to sidestep the most obvious, which is that God the father and his Christ begin their reign when the seventh trumpet blows. So how do you explain this?

All that other stuff you can worry about after. First you need to establish when the trumpet blows in relation to the thousand years, then you can establish when all that other stuff happens.

 

[Straightshot]

"When do you think this reign begins?"


I know when the Lord's eternal kingdom begins

When do you think it begins?

If you are a Catholic, you think it has already begun .... you are flat wrong

 

[LastSeven]

God's eternal reign begins at the end of the thousand years, on the new earth. Now tell me what you think. When do you think God and Christ's eternal reign begins?

 

[Straightshot]

You and I have been over this before so there is no need to repeat

 

[LastSeven]

Oh brother. What is it with you and avoiding questions? Why can't you just answer a simple question? Never mind. You're a waste of time on this forum.

If anybody else would like to answer the question, please do so. So far everybody's just been avoiding it. I've been asking this question for three days now and it's really quite simple, so I don't understand why you guys all just keep avoiding it.

The description of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11 tells us that God and his Christ begin their reign together which lasts forever and ever. Now when, in relation to the thousand years, does this reign begin? At the beginning, or at the end? It's a simple question. Please, somebody answer it, or I'll have to assume this is a scripture that contradicts your beliefs and you all don't have the balls to admit it.

 

[Douggg]

You continue to sidestep the most obvious, which is that God the father and his Christ begin their reign when the seventh trumpet blows. So how do you explain this?

All that other stuff you can worry about after. First you need to establish when the trumpet blows in relation to the thousand years, then you can establish when all that other stuff happens.

The thousand years begin 42 months after the 7th trumpet is blown.

In that verse, it is saying the time is now, signified by when the 7th trumpet right after the two witnesses ascend, that God is taking up (asserting) His rule (which He has always been ruling) and begins the mystery of bringing the kingdom of God to earth. Which the first step is to cast Satan down earth, not to be accusing anyone in heaven anymore... the THIRD WOE, to the inhabitants of the earth and sea.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

After the third woe, there is a time, times, half times left in the 7 years.


1260 days(the two witnesses) + 3 1/2 days...the 7th trumpet sounds... + 42 months (containing the time, times, half times, the third woe) = the seven years.

The above should clear up any timing issue of the 7th trumpet.

 

[LastSeven]

Actually that's not very clear at all. You're talking about the third woe, seven years, 42 months and Satan being cast out of heaven which is in a different chapter altogether and completely irrelevant to my question. You're doing all kinds of complicated math and puzzles while the answer is written as plain as day in Revelation 11, so why don't you begin there?

There are two very strong indicators in Revelation 11 that tell us the trumpet is blown at the end of the thousand years. Why don't you address those indicators?

#1 The time has come for the judging of the dead
#2 The time has come for God and his Christ to begin their eternal reign

So if, after reading that, you still think the trumpet is blown at (or near) the beginning of the thousand years then you must have a good explanation for those two points yet for some reason you haven't even mentioned them. So please don't give me all that other stuff that you think addresses the timeline while ignoring these two points. Address these two points specifically.

When are the dead judged, and when does God begin his eternal reign?

 

[Straightshot]

"You continue to sidestep the most obvious, which is that God the father and his Christ begin their reign when the seventh trumpet blows. So how do you explain this?'

The Lord began His reign in the eternal past [John 1:1-14]

He recently created men on the earth in His image .... and then He turned the stage over to human self rule

He has a plan .... men have failed and so He going to change the game and take back the earth which is rightfully His

The 7th judgment trumpet is a part of His plan, and this trumpet will begin to sound toward the end of His reclamation of the earth .... then He will bring man's rule to close, but not before He deals with the kingdom of the beast related to the next 7 trumpets

He will destroy them at the battle of Armageddon first ..... and then He will appear upon the earth and rule in person from Jerusalem for 1000 years

Then He will put down another human rebellion at the end of the 1000 years and then deal with the second death of all of the spirits of those who have refused to believe the truth about Him and destroy them in His lake of fire

The eternity will begin for His true immortal ecclesia

The Lord always rules over His creation .... but He has a plan

 

[Straightshot]

"What is it with you and avoiding questions?"


When I detect those like you who hold unrelated dogmas, argue at every turn, and play word games, there is a point to reconcile

You have reached the point

 

[LastSeven]

"You continue to sidestep the most obvious, which is that God the father and his Christ begin their reign when the seventh trumpet blows. So how do you explain this?'

The Lord began His reign in the eternal past [John 1:1-14]

He recently created men on the earth in His image .... and then He turned the stage over to human self rule

He has a plan .... men have failed and so He going to change the game and take back the earth which is rightfully His

The 7th judgment trumpet is a part of His plan, and this trumpet will begin to sound toward the end of His reclamation of the earth .... then He will bring man's rule to close, but not before He deals with the kingdom of the beast related to the next 7 trumpets

He will destroy them at the battle of Armageddon first ..... and then He will appear upon the earth and rule in person from Jerusalem for 1000 years

Then He will put down another human rebellion at the end of the 1000 years and then deal with the second death of all of the spirits of those who have refused to believe the truth about Him and destroy them in His lake of fire

The eternity will begin for His true immortal ecclesia

The Lord always rules over His creation .... but He has a plan

You still have not given me any explanation regarding the two points that show the trumpet to be blown at the end of the thousand years. All you've done is given me your version of events, but what I'm looking for here is a logical counter point to my point. If my point is invalid, prove it.

Once again, Revelation 11 says that God and his Christ begin their eternal rule when the seventh trumpet blows. So in light of the fact that Revelation 21 tells us that this happens at the end of the thousand years, give me a reason to believe otherwise, if you can.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Oh brother. What is it with you and avoiding questions? Why can't you just answer a simple question? Never mind. You're a waste of time on this forum.

If anybody else would like to answer the question, please do so. So far everybody's just been avoiding it. I've been asking this question for three days now and it's really quite simple, so I don't understand why you guys all just keep avoiding it.

The description of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11 tells us that God and his Christ begin their reign together which lasts forever and ever. Now when, in relation to the thousand years, does this reign begin? At the beginning, or at the end? It's a simple question. Please, somebody answer it, or I'll have to assume this is a scripture that contradicts your beliefs and you all don't have the balls to admit it.

I'll take a stab at it.

But I can't figure out why you're so worried about the thousand years. The reign and the thousand years are the same thing. It's a thousand year reign. When the thousand years begins, the reign begins. When the thousand years are finished, the reign is over. You do understand that this is specifically talking about Christ's reign WITH the saints and not His eternal or infinite reign which would obviously continue for longer than a thousand years?

"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God,

and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

THEY came to life and reigned WITH Christ for a thousand years.​

After our end time tribulation the souls of the martyrs AND those who had not worshiped the beast come back to life.

THEY then reign WITH Christ for a thousand years. And when the thousand years are finished THEIR reign WITH Christ will end and Christ will continue His reign without the saints.

The only logical purpose for this situation is to satisfy the Pauline phase of the judgment of the dead.

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you,
are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?​

The only time in history when the saints will ALL be alive again is after the 7th trumpet soon before the start of the thousand years. And that's when they are going to assist Jesus in the Pauline judgment of the world.

There are two very strong indicators in Revelation 11 that tell us the trumpet is blown at the end of the thousand years. Why don't you address those indicators?

#1 The time has come for the judging of the dead

This is the Pauline judgement which includes the saints and lasts for the 1000 years.

#2 The time has come for God and his Christ to begin their eternal reign

God and his Christ will begin their eternal reign simultaneous with the saints who came to life and reigned WITH Christ for a thousand years. When the thousand years are finished the saints "reign" concludes but God and Christ's reign continue on eternally.

So if, after reading that, you still think the trumpet is blown at (or near) the beginning of the thousand years then you must have a good explanation for those two points yet for some reason you haven't even mentioned them. So please don't give me all that other stuff that you think addresses the timeline while ignoring these two points. Address these two points specifically.

When are the dead judged, and when does God begin his eternal reign?

It might be easier for you to understand it like when a convicted prisoner is sentenced to death. In this case the prisoners will sleep on death row for a thousand years while we help to figure out with how many stripes they should be beaten with before they die the second death.

Vengeance in mine saith the Lord.

 

[LastSeven]

God and his Christ will begin their eternal reign simultaneous with the saints who came to life and reigned WITH Christ for a thousand years. When the thousand years are finished the saints "reign" concludes but God and Christ's reign continue on eternally.

o.k. now we're getting somewhere. Thank you. Now let me address what you said.

You're saying that God and Christ reign together during the thousand years? Then how do you explain this?

1 Corinthians 15
Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

According to 1 Corinthians 15 Jesus reigns until death is destroyed, at which point he hands over the kingdom to God the Father. But according to you, God the father is already reigning, so how can Jesus hand over the kingdom to somebody who's already reigning over the kingdom?

You also said "but God and Christ's reign continue on eternally" yet 1 Corinthians 15 says "he must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet", which proves that his reign ends at that time. Jesus' reign does not continue on eternally. In fact the passage continues on to say "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.".

 

[LastSeven]

But I can't figure out why you're so worried about the thousand years. The reign and the thousand years are the same thing. It's a thousand year reign. When the thousand years begins, the reign begins. When the thousand years are finished, the reign is over. You do understand that this is specifically talking about Christ's reign WITH the saints and not His eternal or infinite reign which would obviously continue for longer than a thousand years?

Actually, what I understand is that the seventh trumpet ushers in the new earth, and that's the point I've been trying to make. This is not talking about Christ's reign with the saints.

The reason I'm harping on definitively placing these events on the timeline in relation to the thousand years is because it proves that the book of Revelation is not written chronologically and the sooner people can accept that the sooner they can actually start making sense of eschatology. Most Christians are basing their entire understanding of eschatology on a chronological reading of Revelation and on that basis nothing makes sense, because Revelation is not a chronological account of events.

After our end time tribulation the souls of the martyrs AND those who had not worshiped the beast come back to life.

THEY then reign WITH Christ for a thousand years. And when the thousand years are finished THEIR reign WITH Christ will end and Christ will continue His reign without the saints.

Although, as I said in my previous post, Christ's reign ends when death is destroyed. 1 Corinthians 15. His reign does not continue on forever as you claim.

The only logical purpose for this situation is to satisfy the Pauline phase of the judgment of the dead.

Actually the only logical explanation is that the seventh trumpet ushers in the new earth. There is no such thing as a "Pauline judgment" or a "Bema seat judgment". These are man made concepts not supported by scripture. I challenge you to find any reference to there being two separate judgments, just as I've challenged others before. You can not find it, because it's not there. Literally the only reason you believe in two separate judgments is because you believe the book of Revelation is written chronologically.

 

[Douggg]

Actually that's not very clear at all. You're talking about the third woe, seven years, 42 months and Satan being cast out of heaven which is in a different chapter altogether and completely irrelevant to my question. You're doing all kinds of complicated math and puzzles while the answer is written as plain as day in Revelation 11, so why don't you begin there?

I answered your question. God has always been ruling, eternity past, present, and eternity future. The verse is saying at the sound of the seventh trumpet, God is going to assert His rule - to bring the king of God here to earth to have dominion over the nations.

If the second woe has passed right before the 7th trumpet sounds, and says the third woe follows shorty. And the only woe left in Revelation is the woe associated with the casting down of Satan... for the time, times, half time. That proves the 7th trumpet is not at the end of the 7 years.

You're doing all kinds of complicated math and puzzles while the answer is written as plain as day in Revelation 11, so why don't you begin there?

I did start with Revelation 11 because that is where you started..... but apparently did not take into account 11:14....

.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


You have come up with your view - which is fragmented from the rest of the passages. Your view that the seventh angel sounding is at the end of the 7 years doesn't work. I am showing you why.

Once the kingdom of God is brought to earth, and Satan is bound up in chains, then Jesus will rule present on earth (this earth and the next one) forever.

 

[LastSeven]

First of all you said "God has always being ruling, eternity past and eternity future", and I'm sure you mean that God has always been the almighty one, the creator of heaven and earth, and of course that's true. Nobody tells God what to do and nobody has ever been above Him.

However, this is pertaining in particular to the ruling over the kingdom, which is His people. And no, the father has not always ruled over this kingdom. In fact, under the old covenant the kingdom was ruled by human kings (David, Solomon, Saul, etc.) Today it is ruled by Jesus Christ, and after death is defeated the kingdom will be handed over to God the father.

It says so in 1 Corinthians 15:24 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father" and it also says it right here in Revelation 11:17.

We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign

You see, it says that at this time God has begun to reign, which means he did not always reign, and also, since we know that at a certain point Jesus hands over the kingdom to Him we know that he doesn't have it before then. If he had always reigned over the kingdom then there would be no beginning to his reign, but clearly there is a beginning and it's in Revelation 11:17.

 

[LastSeven]

I did start with Revelation 11 because that is where you started..... but apparently did not take into account 11:14....

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Let's address your point about the woes. You're saying that the description of Satan falling from heaven in Revelation 12 is the third woe. I don't believe that's the case and I'll tell you why.

You have to understand that Revelation is not written 100% chronologically, and so in order to understand which pieces fit where you have to look at context first. We can see that Revelation 9 is followed by 10 which is followed by 11. This makes sense because the trumpets are in order, and so are the woes. However, notice that nowhere in the book does it say "This is the third woe", so we are left to fill in that blank by ourselves. We have to decipher what is the third woe.

You logically concluded that Satan falling to earth is the third woe because chapter 12 follows chapter 11, and because Satan falling to earth sounds like a pretty bad thing. I believe the third woe is the wrath of God, which is the judgment, which is mentioned in Revelation 11 under the description of the seventh trumpet. I don't believe Revelation 12 is the woe because the context tells me that Revelation 12 actually took place before Revelation 9. I'll explain how I know that.

In Revelation 12 we see Satan cast down to earth. In Luke 10:18 we see that Jesus witnessed Satan being cast down to earth. In Matthew 28:18 Jesus tells us that he's received his authority, and in Revelation 12, when Satan is cast down to earth we are also told that Jesus has received his authority. So these two events (Satan cast down & Jesus receiving authority) are linked together on the timeline. And since Jesus told us that these two things already happened 2000 years ago, we know that Revelation 12 took place 2000 years ago. This is simple logic.

Now, pay attention cause this is where it gets interesting. In Revelation 9 we read "The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. ".

So obviously Satan is the star who "had fallen from the sky to the earth". It was described in Revelation 12, but referenced here in Revelation 9, so right away we can see that this is out of order. Continuing on, in Revelation 9 we also see that this same angel is given the key to open the abyss, and he escapes (Abaddon, Apollyon, the destroyer which we know is Satan).

So at the blowing of the fifth trumpet (chapter 9) Satan is released from his prison (which is earth), and since Revelation 20 tells us a condensed version of the same story we know that this happens shortly before the end of the thousand years, and the start of the new earth. Therefore it makes perfect sense that the seventh trumpet signifies the end of the thousand years and the ushering in of the new earth, as this is where we see God begin his eternal reign and the judging of the dead.