Let's clear up the Eschatology Scripture?

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[LastSeven]

9 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


At this very moment we know by reading Chapter 20 that Satan is bound in the pit for 1000 years, and those beheaded are judged righteous, while the rest of the Dead are not brought to judgment for another 1000 years. We see in verse 21 above, that ALL THE WICKED ARE SLAIN by Jesus. So if this is not after the 7th Trumpet and after the 7 Vials of God wrath, who will this wrath be poured out upon ? The wicked have been slain by Jesus.

First of all, notice that at the seventh trumpet the description says "The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged."

Now think about what his wrath really is. Do you think all those descriptions about the vials are literal, or are they symbolic? And think about this slaying by the sword of Jesus. His sword is his words (that's why it comes out of his mouth) so he doesn't physically kill people with a physical sword, rather people are killed (and judged) by the word of God. Look, Jesus says it directly here in John 12. His words will condemn them.

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

So if the word of God finds them guilty, then they will suffer the second death, and the second death is the wrath of God so the two events are intertwined.

Not convinced? Then think about the other thing we see at the seventh trumpet. It says in Revelation 11:15: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

A few things here.

#1, this reign that begins at the seventh trumpet lasts forever and ever. So right away we know that this is not signifying the start of the thousand year reign, because "forever" does not equal 1000 years.

#2, this reign is for both the father and the son, not just the son. So again, we can see that this is not the start of the thousand year reign as that reign is for the son alone. It's only after the thousand years that Jesus hands over the kingdom to the father (1 Cor 15:24) and it's only on the new earth that they both reign together.

This is definitive. The seventh trumpet is blown at the end of the thousand years.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[LastSeven]

The 7th trumpet does not have the kingdoms on
earth as yet conquered, but only they have lost some
of the co-rulers ...in heaven the 24 elders no longer sit
as part of the judges group.

At the seventh trumpet God and Jesus begin their eternal reign together. Do you deny this?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[LastSeven]

So you deny it.

This is what Revelation 11 says:

The Seventh Trumpet
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.

But vinsight says "not yet".

So tell me, how can you claim to be a Bible believing Christian, but you don't believe Revelation 11? It clearly says that the Lord and his Messiah have begun to reign over the kingdom of the world and their reign will last forever and ever. But you say, no, not yet. Do you not realize that you're directly contradicting scripture?

You know what's really funny? You're not the first person on this forum to deny the word of God (on this very passage even), but it still boggles my mind. I don't know how you can read this passage and then make the claim that you're making. It's just incredibly obviously contradictory. You are directly contradicting scripture, and I just don't understand how you can do that and still with a straight face claim that you believe what the Bible says. I just don't know what to say to you. If scripture doesn't convince you, then what will?

 

[LastSeven]

Check verse 17. It shows that He is still to
come.

No. It says "you have taken your great power and have begun to reign" Past tense.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[LastSeven]

Verse 19 shows another set of plagues is about to start.
This set will end with great hail.

Irrelevant!!! Why are you skipping over the verses that tell us their reign begins at the seventh trumpet??? You don't like those verses?

 

[Douggg]

Not convinced? Then think about the other thing we see at the seventh trumpet. It says in Revelation 11:15: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

If you click on that link, here is what it says - kingdoms, not kingdom, and "are become" and not has become.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The seventh angels trumpet right after the two witnesses rise and the earthquake in Jerusalem, signifies a process that would take the kingdoms of this world from the dominion of Satan, that the King of God become the reality here on earth.

That process takes place over a 42 month period. It begins with the casting down of Satan and his angels to earth, restricting them here.

 

[LastSeven]

Doug, I'm not sure how any of that is supposed to nullify the fact that their eternal reign begins at the seventh trumpet. So just be straight with me. Do you, or do you not believe that their eternal reign begins at the seventh trumpet? It's a simple question.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, I'm not sure how any of that is supposed to nullify the fact that their eternal reign begins at the seventh trumpet. So just be straight with me. Do you, or do you not believe that their eternal reign begins at the seventh trumpet? Simple yes or no.

If you clarified the question, then maybe it would be a simple yes or no.

At the sound of the seventh trumpet, the kingdom of God is not instantaneously the ruling kingdom here on earth, because Jesus doesn't return to this earth until 42 months latter. The sounding of the seventh trumpet puts the 42 month long process into action. At the end of the process, Jesus shall reign here on this earth for a thousand years, and then a new earth will be created which he will reign forever and forever, eternally, on the new earth.

 

[LastSeven]

There's no indication at all in Revelation 11 that there's a 42 month delay. In fact the wording is such that as the trumpet sounds, God's reign begins. "Instantaneously" may not be the right word (although it might be) but I would say at least on that very day God's reign begins.

EDIT: Actually I want to change my response because the passage does say "you have taken your great power and have begun to reign" so this is actually past tense. Which means there is definitely no 42 month delay.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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