Let's clear up the Eschatology Scripture?

[Postvieww]

It doesn't say "return with Jesus" in the text. But if you are just fitting your view, that's fine.

Allow me to reconcile the passages.

The rapture event of 1thessalonians4 takes place before the martyring begins. Later, in Revelation 6:9 are the souls of them martyred. Those souls will have their bodies resurrected in first resurrection of the 1000 years.

Dougg said : It doesn't say "return with Jesus" in the text. But if you are just fitting your view, that's fine.
If God brings them with Him how is it they will not return with Him?
Allow me to reconcile the passages.
The passages do not need reconciling.
The rapture event of 1thessalonians4 takes place before the martyring begins. The passage doesn't say that. You have assumed that . Later, in Revelation 6:9 are the souls of them martyred. Those souls will have their bodies resurrected in first resurrection of the 1000 years. The passage does not say "the first resurrection of the 1000 years". Sounds like you are promoting more than one resurrection of the righteous dead. Daniel, Jesus and Paul only spoke of one.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus" in the text. But if you are just fitting your view, that's fine.
If God brings them with Him how is it they will not return with Him?

It is the souls of them who have died as Christians in past and have been heaven all these years.

They are not in their resurrected/redeemed bodies as the come with Jesus for the rapture/resurrection. Which is the whole point of them coming with Jesus. He is coming to resurrect their bodies, to reunite with their souls, that the resurrected bodies become living.

The rapture event of 1thessalonians4 takes place before the martyring begins. The passage doesn't say that. You have assumed that .

You're right it doesn't say in 1thessalonians4 anything regarding the martyring. I am basing my statement on passages that indicate the rapture takes place before the great tribulation begins, and the martyring that takes place during that time.

Later, in Revelation 6:9 are the souls of them martyred. Those souls will have their bodies resurrected in first resurrection of the 1000 years. The passage does not say "the first resurrection of the 1000 years". Sounds like you are promoting more than one resurrection of the righteous dead. Daniel, Jesus and Paul only spoke of one.

Actually what I have been addressing is the resurrection/rapture of the saved.

The first resurrection of the thousand years in Revelation 20 is for martyrs who refused to worship the beast, the image, or took the mark.

 

[Psalm3704]

You have yet to deal with the other examples I gave from scripture that used the same phrase in Daniel and Zechariah. The context of those is clearly on this earth not where God dwells. That has much to do with the definition of the four winds and you still ignore.

If you will first answer the points I made in post #396 referring to the passages in Daniel 7:2, Daniel 8:8, Daniel 11:4 and Zechariah 2:6, also Matthew24:31.

Why don't we do it now. Tell me what Daniel 7:2, Daniel 8:8, Daniel 11:4, and Zechariah 2:6 mean.

They're not the same prophecy as Matthew 24:31 and you can't compare Matthew 24:31 to those prophecies without first knowing what they mean. And it's not my job to explain them to you. If you believe they're dealing with the same thing, you should know what each of those prophecies mean.

If that is a foolish theory then it is on you to explain how we have at least three passages that either directly state or imply that souls not resurrected bodies are in heaven .

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul here seems to believe that those in Christ no longer in their earthly bodies are with the Lord.

No. It's not my job or anyone else's job to do your job for you. Neither is it my job to babysit you while you reject everything we teach you.

It's your job to go figure out your mistakes because you are the only one you listen to. You don't even listen to the bible, instead you use the bible to create your own teachings.



[/QUOTE]

1 Thessalonians 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

These must be the souls of “them also which sleep in Jesus” because they will return with Jesus and be raised from the dead mentioned only 2 verses later in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

More errors!!!

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It is clear from the text these are the “souls of them that were slain” and not resurrected martyrs.

This has nothing to do with the four winds of Matthew 24:31. Just a strawman gone bad.

Rev.7: 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7 is less clear, but I would submit to you that since these were specifically those that come out of great tribulation they are just the souls as described in Rev. 6. And not resurrected martyrs.

I’ve laid out my case from scripture, can you discuss it without impugning my intelligence?

More strawman gone bad. This has nothing to do with the four winds of Matthew 24:31.

Gathered from the ground to the air. The same phrase used in the scriptures listed below show no contradiction in that statement.

If I don’t get it then you must explain Daniel 7:2, Daniel 8:8, Daniel 11:4 and Zechariah 2:6. If you cannot or will not explain these passages then you have no basis to claim I don’t get it.

No it's not my job to babysit you. It's not my job to explain every verse you cherry pick out of context not knowing what they mean. You're the one who choose to use those scriptures. If you can't explain each of them than you don't know what those prophecies mean. It just means you're arguing about things you have no idea about.

Now tell me what does Daniel 7:2, Daniel 8:8, Daniel 11:4, and Zechariah 2:6 mean.

If you took the time to listen Carl was quoting from “the” source, the writings of the early church fathers. So this really does not rely on what you think about his credibility or his theology. They either wrote what he presented as their written works or they didn’t. It is on you to prove what he said they wrote is not accurate.

I did. He's just a motormouth who speaks from his mind and not from the bible.

I challenge you to respond to just one of my posts without a condescending attitude. I believe miracles are still for us today.

I challenge you to explain what Daniel 7:2, Daniel 8:8, Daniel 11:4, and Zechariah 2:6 mean. If you can answer that correctly, than you'll have your miracle.









.

 

[Psalm3704]

Better yet, why don't I stoop down to your level, post a video and tell you to prove all 5 trumpets haven't sounded yet.

Why would I do that? I believe some of them have sounded.

So what are the locusts from the bottomless pit of the 5th trumpet?







.

 

[Postvieww]

Why don't we do it now. Tell me what Daniel 7:2, Daniel 8:8, Daniel 11:4, and Zechariah 2:6 mean.

They're not the same prophecy as Matthew 24:31 and you can't compare Matthew 24:31 to those prophecies without first knowing what they mean. And it's not my job to explain them to you. If you believe they're dealing with the same thing, you should know what each of those prophecies mean.





No. It's not my job or anyone else's job to do your job for you. Neither is it my job to babysit you while you reject everything we teach you.

It's your job to go figure out your mistakes because you are the only one you listen to. You don't even listen to the bible, instead you use the bible to create your own teachings.































.

Psalm3704 said:

Neither is it my job to babysit you while you reject everything we teach you.

It is obviously not your job to teach.

Teaching does not involve condescension, name calling, answering a question with a question and quite possibly the worst attitude I have come across on any of these forums.

Are you kin to or have you studied under Peter Ruckman?

 

[Postvieww]

It is the souls of them who have died as Christians in past and have been heaven all these years.

They are not in their resurrected/redeemed bodies as the come with Jesus for the rapture/resurrection. Which is the whole point of them coming with Jesus. He is coming to resurrect their bodies, to reunite with their souls, that the resurrected bodies become living.


You're right it doesn't say in 1thessalonians4 anything regarding the martyring. I am basing my statement on passages that indicate the rapture takes place before the great tribulation begins, and the martyring that takes place during that time.


Actually what I have been addressing is the resurrection/rapture of the saved.

The first resurrection of the thousand years in Revelation 20 is for martyrs who refused to worship the beast, the image, or took the mark.

Dougg said:

It is the souls of them who have died as Christians in past and have been heaven all these years.

They are not in their resurrected/redeemed bodies as the come with Jesus for the rapture/resurrection. Which is the whole point of them coming with Jesus. He is coming to resurrect their bodies, to reunite with their souls, that the resurrected bodies become living.

A point we can agree on!

You're right it doesn't say in 1thessalonians4 anything regarding the martyring. I am basing my statement on passages that indicate the rapture takes place before the great tribulation begins, and the martyring that takes place during that time.

I believe I am also right when I say no passages says a resurrection takes place before the great tribulation. Please show us those verses. Can you find one plainly stated so that you do not have to interpret it for us?

Actually what I have been addressing is the resurrection/rapture of the saved.

The first resurrection of the thousand years in Revelation 20 is for martyrs who refused to worship the beast, the image, or took the mark.

When I said ” The passage does not say "the first resurrection of the 1000 years"”, I was referring to Rev 20.

At best Rev 20 is a difficult or confusing passage because of the way it is constructed. Especially verse 5, that mentions the resurrection of the “rest of the dead” or wicked dead at the end of the 1000 years and the following sentence says “This is the first resurrection”.

It changes topics within the paragraph or point of the resurrection of the wicked.

My point was it does not say “the first resurrection of the 1000 years” I assume you surmise that because it is mentioned in Rev 20.

All it says for sure is what we read in verse 6.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I understand how you are getting where you are by claiming a separate resurrection for those killed in the tribulation, but this text does not state that implicitly.

What it does say is exactly what is written verse 6. Do not add words or thoughts to that statement.

What it does not say is when that resurrection took place.

It does not say is that it took place right there in Rev 20.

Here are some of my reasons for my reckoning of the passage.

Since all of the benefits described apply to all of those in the church I believe this refers to the one and only resurrection of the righteous dead at the coming of Christ.

1. On such the second death has no part. (Not just the martyrs)

2. They shall be priests of God and Christ (Not just the martyrs)

3. They shall reign with Him a 1000 years. (not just the martyrs)

Other reasons for my belief are.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

No hint of this resurrection being before the “time of trouble” and no hint of more than one for the righteous.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Very similar wording and thought to Rev 20:6 “Blessed is he that waiteth” “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection”

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Does not even hint at more than one resurrection for the righteous.

The words of Jesus:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The words of Martha spoken to Jesus. She agreed with His prior words and He did not correct her.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

The words pf Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul outlined the order for us. Christ first then they are Christ’s at His coming. No other resurrection for the righteous dead alluded to here.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

No hint at another resurrection for the righteous to follow.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

Again no hint of another resurrection for the righteous to follow.

The words of Jesus again:

Matthew 22:30-31, Luke 14:14, John 5:29,

Jesus said the resurrection not resurrections plural.

The words of Peter and John:

Acts 4:2

“The resurrection”

Again what Paul taught:

Acts 17:18 & 32

“the resurrection”

Pauls words in:

Philippians 3:11

There are no references to “resurrections” plural, of the righteous dead.

I have laid out my case in detail. I am sure you disagree, but I would like to see your rebuttal from scripture in detail as well .

 

[Psalm3704]

It is obviously not your job to teach.

Teaching does not involve condescension, name calling, answering a question with a question and quite possibly the worst attitude I have come across on any of these forums.

Are you kin to or have you studied under Peter Ruckman?

Oh I'm a lot nicer to people who don't run to moderators to report me for saying you were obtuse.








.

 

[Douggg]

I believe I am also right when I say no passages says a resurrection takes place before the great tribulation. Please show us those verses. Can you find one plainly stated so that you do not have to interpret it for us?

No, I cannot regarding the resurrection. There are passages that indirectly indicate that the resurrection of the "saved" will take place before the great tribulation - because that resurrection coincides with the rapture, which it is before the great tribulation. The great tribulation beginning when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped.

There are no references to “resurrections” plural, of the righteous dead.

I have noticed when reading throughout your post, you use the terms "righteous" dead, and the wicked. Really, that is a faulty way of putting it, because there were many in the old testament considered "righteous", but were not saved until the gospel was presented to while Jesus's body was in the grave.

It should be the resurrection of the "saved" and the "unsaved"; the unsaved which would include the wicked as well certainly.

There is no concise passage addressing the three resurrections of the saved. I will agree with you on that part, okay.

But that doesn't mean that there are not more than one resurrection of the saved. It is just that the three resurrections are found in separate text.... the designated times are in the text itself, shows that there will be three resurrections of the saved.

1. the rapture/resurrection of the saved before the transgression of desolation in 2thessalonians2, which itself precedes the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation (to take place on day 1185 of the 7 year timeline).

2. At the beginning of the thousand years, the resurrection of the saved martyrs (but no rapture of the living involved in the text).

3. At the end of thousand years, the resurrection of all them who's works determine their destiny. Some will be saved persons. Some will be unsaved persons. Some will be "other".

This would include them who rejected Jesus. And them who never had a chance to hear the gospel, but would have accepted it had they had the chance. And eternal life to them who were incapable, children, mentally ill. And them born during the millennium, who accept Jesus, during millennium.

 

[Postvieww]

No, I cannot regarding the resurrection. There are passages that indirectly indicate that the resurrection of the "saved" will take place before the great tribulation - because that resurrection coincides with the rapture, which it is before the great tribulation. The great tribulation beginning when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped.

There are no references to “resurrections” plural, of the righteous dead.

I have noticed when reading throughout your post, you use the terms "righteous" dead, and the wicked. Really, that is a faulty way of putting it, because there were many in the old testament considered "righteous", but were not saved until the gospel was presented to while Jesus's body was in the grave.

It should be the resurrection of the "saved" and the "unsaved"; the unsaved which would include the wicked as well certainly.

There is no concise passage addressing the three resurrections of the saved. I will agree with you on that part, okay.

But that doesn't mean that there are not more than one resurrection of the saved. It is just that the three resurrections are found in separate text.... the designated times are in the text itself, shows that there will be three resurrections of the saved.

1. the rapture/resurrection of the saved before the transgression of desolation in 2thessalonians2, which itself precedes the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation (to take place on day 1185 of the 7 year timeline).

2. At the beginning of the thousand years, the resurrection of the saved martyrs (but no rapture of the living involved in the text).

3. At the end of thousand years, the resurrection of all them who's works determine their destiny. Some will be saved persons. Some will be unsaved persons. Some will be "other".

This would include them who rejected Jesus. And them who never had a chance to hear the gospel, but would have accepted it had they had the chance. And eternal life to them who were incapable, children, mentally ill. And them born during the millennium, who accept Jesus, during millennium.

Postvieww said: ↑

I believe I am also right when I say no passages says a resurrection takes place before the great tribulation. Please show us those verses. Can you find one plainly stated so that you do not have to interpret it for us?

No, I cannot regarding the resurrection. There are passages that indirectly indicate that the resurrection of the "saved" will take place before the great tribulation - because that resurrection coincides with the rapture, which it is before the great tribulation. The great tribulation beginning when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped.

It appears that you have just used your predetermined belief on the timing of the rapture as proof of the timing of the rapture. If we were in a court of law do you think there might be an objection to that maneuver?


There are no references to “resurrections” plural, of the righteous dead. Postvieww fro post #426

I have noticed when reading throughout your post, you use the terms "righteous" dead, and the wicked. Really, that is a faulty way of putting it, because there were many in the old testament considered "righteous", but were not saved until the gospel was presented to while Jesus's body was in the grave.

It should be the resurrection of the "saved" and the "unsaved"; the unsaved which would include the wicked as well certainly.

I do that on purpose so there is no confusion on what I am talking about. Tell me, are not all of the saved OT or NT righteous in God’s eyes?

Do you have no comment on the point the resurrection is never referred to in the plural in scripture?

There is no concise passage addressing the three resurrections of the saved. I will agree with you on that part, okay.

Objection your honor, you have just assumed there 3 resurrection of the saved and admitted there is no “concise passage” to support your belief.

But that doesn't mean that there are not more than one resurrection of the saved. It is just that the three resurrections are found in separate text....

If they are not concise on that point how can we assume there are three? Are you just “fitting your view”?

the designated times are in the text itself, shows that there will be three resurrections of the saved.


1. the rapture/resurrection of the saved before the transgression of desolation in 2thessalonians2, which itself precedes the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation (to take place on day 1185 of the 7 year timeline).

You know that I and many, many others disagree with your interpretation here and actually I believe the text shows exactly opposite of what you claim. Our gathering (rapture, resurrection) cannot take place until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. I believe that is concisely what the text says. You have to massage the text in order to “fit your view” on this passage.

2. At the beginning of the thousand years, the resurrection of the saved martyrs (but no rapture of the living involved in the text).

Actually there is no timing in the text and several parallels to the resurrection of the “saved” dead. You did not address any of the points I made on this text in the previous post.

3. At the end of thousand years, the resurrection of all them who's works determine their destiny. Some will be saved persons. Some will be unsaved persons. Some will be "other".

As I pointed out at best this passage is difficult, you have made a lot of assumptions in the above statement. All we know about the “second death” from this passage is it will have no power over those in the first resurrection. Not very concise to your statement.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This would include them who rejected Jesus. And them who never had a chance to hear the gospel, but would have accepted it had they had the chance. And eternal life to them who were incapable, children, mentally ill. And them born during the millennium, who accept Jesus, during millennium.

Again a lot of assumptions here with no concise backing.

We still have the issue of Daniel, Jesus and Paul only referring to 1 resurrection for the “saved” dead. I cannot assume they all missed multiple resurrections.

Jesus said:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What is clear here is that, Jesus did not refer to multiple resurrections for those “that have done good”.

At best you can only come up with 2, 1 for the “good” and one for the “bad”. Some even argue they happen at the same point in time. I’ll not touch that one here.

 

[Douggg]

Postvieww said: ↑

I believe I am also right when I say no passages says a resurrection takes place before the great tribulation. Please show us those verses. Can you find one plainly stated so that you do not have to interpret it for us?

No, I cannot regarding the resurrection. There are passages that indirectly indicate that the resurrection of the "saved" will take place before the great tribulation - because that resurrection coincides with the rapture, which it is before the great tribulation. The great tribulation beginning when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped.

It appears that you have just used your predetermined belief on the timing of the rapture as proof of the timing of the rapture. If we were in a court of law do you think there might be an objection to that maneuver?

No, not at all. The text in the passages indicate that the rapture takes place before the transgression of desolation. And before the time of testing (the great tribulation) to come up on the word. I really don't want to get into repeating all of those.

I have noticed when reading throughout your post, you use the terms "righteous" dead, and the wicked. Really, that is a faulty way of putting it, because there were many in the old testament considered "righteous", but were not saved until the gospel was presented to while Jesus's body was in the grave.

It should be the resurrection of the "saved" and the "unsaved"; the unsaved which would include the wicked as well certainly.

I do that on purpose so there is no confusion on what I am talking about. Tell me, are not all of the saved OT or NT righteous in God’s eyes?

But it is confusing to say righteous and wicked. There are many many good people, who are not saved because they haven't received the gospel. They can't be considered wicked. Wicked would be like Saddam, Adolph Hitler. Righteous people, albeit unsaved, would be like Howie Mandel (I am assuming that he is not a Christian).

Do you have no comment on the point the resurrection is never referred to in the plural in scripture?

There is no concise passage addressing the three resurrections of the saved. I will agree with you on that part, okay.

Objection your honor, you have just assumed there 3 resurrection of the saved and admitted there is no “concise passage” to support your belief.

Objection overruled. The text itself says resurrection and obviously applies to the saved.

But that doesn't mean that there are not more than one resurrection of the saved. It is just that the three resurrections are found in separate text....

If they are not concise on that point how can we assume there are three? Are you just “fitting your view”?

No, my view comes from the text. The designated times are in the text itself, shows that there will be three resurrections of the saved.

1. the rapture/resurrection of the saved before the transgression of desolation in 2thessalonians2, which itself precedes the great tribulation and the abomination of desolation (to take place on day 1185 of the 7 year timeline).

You know that I and many, many others disagree with your interpretation here and actually I believe the text shows exactly opposite of what you claim. Our gathering (rapture, resurrection) cannot take place until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. I believe that is concisely what the text says. You have to massage the text in order to “fit your view” on this passage.

Well, it is an misinterpretation of 2thessalonians2. Which your view conflicts with Luke 21:34-36 and Revelation 3:10.

Certainly anyone can believe what they want to, but along with that comes consequences. The negative consequence for them saying that the rapture can only happen in the post-trib scenario is that they are not going to be raptured, imo, because they have spoken again the hope of escape.

 

[Postvieww]

No, not at all. The text in the passages indicate that the rapture takes place before the transgression of desolation. And before the time of testing (the great tribulation) to come up on the word. I really don't want to get into repeating all of those.




But it is confusing to say righteous and wicked. There are many many good people, who are not saved because they haven't received the gospel. They can't be considered wicked. Wicked would be like Saddam, Adolph Hitler. Righteous people, albeit unsaved, would be like Howie Mandel (I am assuming that he is not a Christian).



Objection overruled. The text itself says resurrection and obviously applies to the saved.


No, my view comes from the text. The designated times are in the text itself, shows that there will be three resurrections of the saved.



Well, it is an misinterpretation of 2thessalonians2. Which your view conflicts with Luke 21:34-36 and Revelation 3:10.

Certainly anyone can believe what they want to, but along with that comes consequences. The negative consequence for them saying that the rapture can only happen in the post-trib scenario is that they are not going to be raptured, imo, because they have spoken again the hope of escape.

Dougg said:

No, not at all. The text in the passages indicate that the rapture takes place before the transgression of desolation. And before the time of testing (the great tribulation) to come up on the word. I really don't want to get into repeating all of those.

I totally understand why you don’t want to get into those texts again; they do not support your position.

But it is confusing to say righteous and wicked. There are many many good people, who are not saved because they haven't received the gospel. They can't be considered wicked. Wicked would be like Saddam, Adolph Hitler. Righteous people, albeit unsaved, would be like Howie Mandel (I am assuming that he is not a Christian).

I’ll concede the point on my word choice “wicked” but I’ll stick with “righteous dead”. The term is scriptural:

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



Tell me, where will the unsaved ultimately end up even if they weren’t as bad as Hitler?


Objection overruled. The text itself says resurrection and obviously applies to the saved.

I appeal to a higher court, you have not proved there are three resurrections yet future for the righteous dead. Scripture on shows us one, you have left many points raised unanswered.



No, my view comes from the text. The designated times are in the text itself, shows that there will be three resurrections of the saved.

Like you said below “anyone can believe what they want to” but you have not shown that from the text. I do hear you declaring it to be so, but I’m not seeing you prove it.


Well, it is an misinterpretation of 2thessalonians2. Which your view conflicts with Luke 21:34-36 and Revelation 3:10.

I believe you have misinterpreted all three of the above passages.

Certainly anyone can believe what they want to, but along with that comes consequences. The negative consequence for them saying that the rapture can only happen in the post-trib scenario is that they are not going to be raptured, imo, because they have spoken again the hope of escape.

Have you thought about the unintended consequences of your above statement?

Paul said in 1 Corin 15:23 That “they that are Christ’s at his coming” would be resurrected, not those that prayed to be found worthy to escape.

You have just tied believing in your interpretation of the time of the resurrection to being in Christ. I am sure that is not your intention but never the less that is the result.

You said ” The negative consequence for them saying that the rapture can only happen in the post-trib scenario is that they are not going to be raptured”

There no way to support that statement with scripture! Many born again, saved by His blood Christians have sincere and differing views on what the scripture teaches on the timing of the resurrection, that is no way a condition for salvation, resurrection ,catching up whenever He comes or any other promise of God to His church.

 

[Douggg]

Dougg said:

No, not at all. The text in the passages indicate that the rapture takes place before the transgression of desolation. And before the time of testing (the great tribulation) to come up on the word. I really don't want to get into repeating all of those.

I totally understand why you don’t want to get into those texts again; they do not support your position.

No, because presenting those verses to them who hold the post-trib view is like talking to a brick wall. This has been proven over and over and over.

I accept that post tribbers choose to have their way and go through the great tribulation as they don't believe that God would keep them from having to go through it. Them who believe God are counted as worthy.

You can't argue to the body of Christ against God keeping persons from having to go through the great tribulation - and expect Him to take you.


34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Riberra]

You can't argue to the body of Christ against God keeping persons from having to go through the great tribulation - and expect Him to take you.


34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Are you sure that you interpret this passage correctly?

When reading along with other passages in Luke 21 there is another picture emerging....that is not YOUR PHYSICAL BODY who you need to worry about but saving your SOUL...
Luke 21
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your SOULS.

It does not seem to be mention about a removal to Heaven before these things.... But to be aware that one day these things are coming and be ready[verse 34] .The word 'escape' in verse 36 seem to be a bad translation from the original text as Keras have pointed out ... Taken as a whole Luke 21 cannot say at the same time / they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake/... //but don't worry you will not be there when these things will happen...//
God's words does not contradict and cause confusion.Taking a verse out of its original context do cause confusion .

That is your SOUL verse 19 that will stand before the Son of man (Jesus) at the resurrection...at that moment you will receive a new immortal body.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Douggg]

Are you sure that you interpret this passage correctly?

When reading along with other passages in Luke 21 there is another picture emerging....that is not YOUR PHYSICAL BODY who you need to worry about but saving your SOUL...
Luke 21
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your SOULS.

Verse 19 is not referring to Luke 21:34-36.

Start at verse 24 to get to our time and the parable of the fig tree. When a person understands the parable of the fig tree - which is Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews, the events of the end times will start to happen - and for them living at that time, look up for your redemption draws near.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

 

[Riberra]

Verse 19 is not referring to Luke 21:34-36.

Start at verse 24 to get to our time and the parable of the fig tree. When a person understands the parable of the fig tree - which is Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews, the events of the end times will start to happen - and for them living at that time, look up for your redemption draws near.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Verse 24 a seem to be about the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews among the nations in 70 AD ....Jerusalem is trodden down of the Gentiles since that time.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Which is to say that all of that must happen .
Our redemption will happen upon the Coming of Jesus in Glory to establish His Kingdom on the Earth [verse 31]... not before.

 

[Douggg]

Verse 24 a seem to be about the destruction of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Jews among the nations in 70 AD ....Jerusalem is trodden down of the Gentiles since that time.

....which brings us to 1967.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Which is to say that all of that must happen .
Our redemption will happen upon the Coming of Jesus in Glory to establish His Kingdom on the Earth [verse 31]... not before.

Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews is when to look up. Not after all of the prophecies have been fulfilled. Otherwise, there is no need for the parable.

 

[Riberra]

....which brings us to 1967.

Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews is when to look up. Not after all of the prophecies have been fulfilled. Otherwise, there is no need for the parable.

When it say .../when ye see these things come to pass/ it means all the things described in that prophecy Luke 21:5-33 must come to pass.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

 

[Douggg]

When it say .../when ye see these things come to pass/ it means all the things described in that prophecy Luke 21:5-33 must come to pass.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

No,it doesn't. It means the rapture takes place in the generation that sees the Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews.
And likewise the great tribulation with take place in that generation, which ends with the Kingdom of God being brought to earth, as those things of the end times take place.

Look up for your redemption (of your bodies in the rapture) draws near is the watching in Luke 21:36, to be found worthy to stand before the son of Man to escape the great tribulation that will take place here on earth.

 

[keras]

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

It is an impossible contradiction to think some will escape all these things/ that will come upon everyone the whole world over.
The Revised English Bible translates verse 36.....for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming....
So there is no whisking away to heaven for anyone in that passage, or anywhere else in the Bible.

No,it doesn't. It means the rapture takes place in the generation that sees the Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews.

I agree that the 70 years since 1948 is very significant. But saying a rapture to heaven will take place within that time is a figment of your imagination.
What is prophesied to happen before 2018, is the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. The reset of civilization that will set the scene for all that is prophesied to happen before the Return of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

I agree that the 70 years since 1948 is very significant. But saying a rapture to heaven will take place within that time is a figment of your imagination.
What is prophesied to happen before 2018, is the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath. The reset of civilization that will set the scene for all that is prophesied to happen before the Return of Jesus.

It's 70 years since 1967, Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews.

I hope you record your statement about before 2018 is the Day of the Lord's vengeance - so you can just admit your wrong to everyone here. You have a little over a year left.