Let no man deceive you by any means...2 Thessalonians 2:3

[Douggg]

Now you correct your 'chart'.

I have no idea of what chart you are talking about.

Even at the NH,NE, there is no mention of Gods wrath.

Of course not. God's wrath is poured out during the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Let me inform you that those scribbles just add to the general confusion and are worse than useless when what you show is hopelessly wrong.
The Day of the Lord's wrath is just a single 24 hour day and the Day when Jesus Returns is also a one day event.

"scribbles" ? not me. I make my charts with a computer graphics program, Corel paint shop pro, not with a pencil or pen.

keras, look at your avatar. You are holding a pen or pencil. Scribbling is done with those. And you label yourself as "Writer of studies on Bible prophecy" for your blog site.

 

[Postvieww]

Jesus; the Lord: does not 'come' visibly at the Sixth Seal -

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Verse 16 does refer to the return of Christ visibly.

 

[DavidPT]

God's wrath is poured out during the great tribulation.

Your theory might work if we rearrange Matthew 24 like such and change something in verse 29 like such, thus also making verse 29 verse 14 instead.

Matthew 24:14 Immediately BEFORE the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
30 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[DavidPT]

The Day of the Lord's wrath is just a single 24 hour day and the Day when Jesus Returns is also a one day event.

Since none of the seals, nor any of the trumpets, nor any of the vials, are involving one day only events, the same is true once the day of the Lord begins. That day is not involving a one day only event. Just because it's called the day of the Lord doesn't mean that it's meaning a single 24 hour day, as if a day can only be understood as 24 hours or something. The day of the Lord involves the 7th trumpet and all 7 vials being poured out. No one could possibly think all 7 vials are poured out during one single 24 hour day.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

He is not warning us, he is warning 1st century Christians.
Blessings.

He is warning anyone susceptible to the false idea that the resurrection of believers will happen before the falling away and the revealing of the antichrist. If a person thinks these two things are possible, they must take the warning seriously.

 

[Douggg]

Your theory might work if we rearrange Matthew 24 like such and change something in verse 29 like such, thus also making verse 29 verse 14 instead.

Matthew 24:14 Immediately BEFORE the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:15, the AoD, is what triggers the beginning of the great tribulation. Matthew 24:29 is near the end of the great tribulation. Why is that so hard to grasp ?

 

[keras]

The sixth seal event takes place right at the end of the great tribulation. The sixth seal event is not the first event of God's wrath.

This is your big mistake.
Not only is it illogical for the Lord to destroy the world He is Returning to rule over, but you are playing fast and loose with the Book of Revelation. There is a penalty for doing that.

When Satan is cast down from the second heaven to earth in Revelation 12:7-9, he will have great wrath, a terror, knowing his time is short, the time/times/half time.

Sure, Satan will persecute the Christians, Revelation 12:17. For that 42 months, Revelation 13:1-8
But all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are the wrath of God and the Lamb. Only the Sixth Seal is worldwide; the 7Trumpets and 7 Bowls are directed at the ungodly peoples, specifically those who have taken the 'mark of the beast'.

 

[keras]

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Verse 16 does refer to the return of Christ visibly.

No it doesn't. The glorious Return is described quite differently. 1 Thess 4:16, Revelation 19:11-21

The fact that people scramble for cover and cry out: Hide us...... Does not mean they actually see the Lord. The prophesies about that Day, say He will not be seen then.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


What exactly is it that Paul is warning us about, to let no man deceive you by any means?

The first thing to acknowledge though some apparently don't, the gathering together in verse 1 is meaning during the day of Christ in verse 2. That means verse 3 should be understood as follows.

for our gathering together unto Him, the day of Christ, shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Since this isn't rocket science, there is no need to make something simple complex instead. If read like the following, then it is crystal clear, though it already should be to begin with---except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, our gathering together unto Him, the day of Christ, shall not come

As to Paul's warning in verse 3, this indicates there are deceivers trying to deceive others, otherwise Paul would have had zero reason to even make this warning. So, what is he not wanting these deceivers to deceive anyone about? That the rapture is before there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition? Or that the rapture is after there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition?

One thing I think we are all in agreement about, except for maybe Preterists, verse 1 is pertaining to the rapture. And since some pretribbers take---except there come a falling away first---to be meaning this same rapture, that means verse 3 would be being understood like such---for the rapture shall not come, except there come the rapture first--as if one can make any kind of sense out of that.

The way some Pretribbers try and get around this, they claim the gathering in verse 1 is not the same event as the day of Christ in verse 2. Basically then they have verse 3 saying this, as if that makes a difference since verse 2 obviously involves the same event recorded in verse 1 though they deny it---for the day of Christ shall not come, except there come the rapture first.

In verse 1 Paul talks about the gathering unto Christ. So why would he be changing the subject altogether in verse 2, assuming the day of Christ doesn't involve the gathering in verse 1?

It's quite obvious that by referring to "the day of Christ" in verse 2, Paul is referring to the day of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" in verse 1. And "that day" referenced in verse 3 is the same day. Anyone who tries to deny this is just trying to twist scripture to fit their view, in my opinion. So, Paul was clearly saying that the falling away and revealing of the man of sin has to happen first before the coming of Christ and the rapture ("our gathering together unto him") occurs.

Honestly, this is very simple stuff. If someone can't get this right, then what can they get right?

 

[Douggg]

This is your big mistake.
Not only is it illogical for the Lord to destroy the world He is Returning to rule over, but you are playing fast and loose with the Book of Revelation. There is a penalty for doing that.

What could you possibly be talking about? Jesus returns to Jerusalem, at His Second Coming, and then rules and reigns on this present earth 1000 years.

Sure, Satan will persecute the Christians, Revelation 12:17. For that 42 months, Revelation 13:1-8
But all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are the wrath of God and the Lamb. Only the Sixth Seal is worldwide; the 7Trumpets and 7 Bowls are directed at the ungodly peoples, specifically those who have taken the 'mark of the beast'.

What? It is woe to the inhabiters of the earth.


21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Postvieww]

Christ is only returning to earth one time in our future. Every passage that refers to His coming does not have every detail as other passages. Because clouds, wrath, angels or any other detail is not present does NOT mean the passage is describing another event. None of the passages about His return are identical in every detail. We cannot divide all of the coming of the Lord passage into different comings to fit the doctrines of men.

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

If they want to be hid from His face they see His face. His wrath comes with Him.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ will be present on earth to reign!

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

His wrath is come Christ is here to dispense it. Rewards are given when He comes. Matthew 16:27

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Jesus comes on a white cloud here just as in Matthew 24:30

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Jesus that comes on the cloud reaps the earth.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Jesus puts forth His wrath just as in Revelation 6:16, Revelation 11:18


All of these passages refer to the same and only coming of Christ in our future. There is no rapture of the saints back to heaven to wait out the tribulation on earth. There is no passage in scripture that says any such thing. It is only by dividing up the scripture with personal interpretations that anyone can come up with a pre-trib rapture. Anyone who disagrees show us one passage that clearly states a return of resurrected saints to heaven. Without a patchwork of different scriptures there is no such doctrine. We have numerous clear scriptures on the return of Christ no one of them says He come and goes back.

I spent the first part of my Christian life believing the lie of a pre-trib rapture, but it is a lie not found in scripture.

 

[keras]

Christ is only returning to earth one time in our future. Every passage that refers to His coming does not have every detail as other passages. Because clouds, wrath, angels or any other detail is not present does NOT mean the passage is describing another event. None of the passages about His return are identical in every detail. We cannot divide all of the coming of the Lord passage into different comings to fit the doctrines of men.

But there are two Days: First the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath; Amos 1, Psalms 11:4-6, Zephaniah 3:8, +
Then, after all the other end time Prophesies have taken place, Jesus will Return and will only dispose of Satans armies at Armageddon.

You cannot mix up a prophecy like Amos 5:18-20, with the glorious Return.

 

[Postvieww]

But there are two Days: First the terrible Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath; Amos 1, Psalms 11:4-6, Zephaniah 3:8, +
Then, after all the other end time Prophesies have taken place, Jesus will Return and will only dispose of Satans armies at Armageddon.

You cannot mix up a prophecy like Amos 5:18-20, with the glorious Return.

The return of Christ is terrible for those not ready and glorious for those looking for Him. There are not two returns. Jesus can multitask.

 

[keras]

The return of Christ is terrible for those not ready and glorious for those looking for Him. There are not two returns. Jesus can multitask.

The Lord was not visible when He sent the water of Noah's Flood.
He will not be visible again, when He sends the fire of punishment of His enemies.

Your offhand rejection of the plainly stated Prophesies is your bad, Actually; do you even look at the scriptures i presented?

 

[Postvieww]

Actually; do you even look at the scriptures i presented?

Yes several times. I am not seeing what you are claiming. Maybe you could actually quote the passages and in detail explain how you arrived at your interpretation.

 

[Postvieww]

He will not be visible again, when He sends the fire of punishment of His enemies.

Show the scriptures that actually say that.

 

[keras]

Show the scriptures that actually say that.

Psalms 18:11 He made darkness His covering, thick cloud His covering.
Habakkuk 3:4 His brightness is like the dawn, light flashes from His hands and thereby His might is veiled.

But Prophesies like Psalms 11:4-6 and Amos 1, make it clear that the Lord SENDS His fiery wrath.

 

[Postvieww]

He will not be visible again, when He sends the fire of punishment of His enemies.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Yes He will be visible.! This passage is clearly stated the ones you have quoted are not.
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Yes He will be visible!

 

[claninja]

Initially he was warning those in the first century. But since none of those events have been fulfilled yet, that should mean this warning is still applicable today. But let's assume this warning was only for those in the first century. What was he warning them to not be deceived about?

I guess, I would start with audience relevance and presuppositions.

1.) First I would ask: What is the day of the Lord that Paul has in mind, which the first century church would have related to? Is it:

A.) literally every eye viewing the physical and bodily descent of Christ through the atmosphere, dead and alive believers flying into the air, and Christ setting up a literal, earthly kingdom for 1,000 years?

B.) literally every eye viewing the physical and bodily descent of Christ through the atmosphere, dead and alive believers flying into the air, and the literal heaven and earth being destroyed?

C.) The destruction of Jerusalem, the removal of the obsolete old covenant, and the gathering of the good and bad into the wedding feast?

2.) Then, secondly, I would ask: IF the first century PEOPLE IN THESSALONIA TO WHOM PAUL WAS WRITING, held to presupposition 1a, 1b, or 1c above, how could they be deceived that it already had occurred?

3.) Then I would consider the events that first must occur prior to the day of the Lord, according to Paul: i.) the apostasy and ii.) the “revealing” of the man of sin.

A.) Are these new revealed events OR is Paul further elaborating on events already revealed? Such as those found in the OD. IF the apostasy and man of sin are related to the falling away and false Christs/prophets arising and misleading THEN audience relevance dictates that 2 Thessalonians 2 should be understood in light of the OD.

Matthew 24:10 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

B.) Does anything in the grammar suggest the timing of the man of sin?
Yes, the man of sin’s “revealing” was being restrained in the first century according to 2 Thessalonians 2:6. The man of sin was presently existing (present tense verb) in the first century by the works of Satan according to 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

C.) Do any other gospels and epistles claim a “falling away” associated with the “end times”? Yes, John states “they left us” in association with the coming of the antichrists, and that being evidence as how they knew it was the last hour.