Let no man deceive you by any means...2 Thessalonians 2:3

[DavidPT]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


What exactly is it that Paul is warning us about, to let no man deceive you by any means?

The first thing to acknowledge though some apparently don't, the gathering together in verse 1 is meaning during the day of Christ in verse 2. That means verse 3 should be understood as follows.

for our gathering together unto Him, the day of Christ, shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Since this isn't rocket science, there is no need to make something simple complex instead. If read like the following, then it is crystal clear, though it already should be to begin with---except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, our gathering together unto Him, the day of Christ, shall not come

As to Paul's warning in verse 3, this indicates there are deceivers trying to deceive others, otherwise Paul would have had zero reason to even make this warning. So, what is he not wanting these deceivers to deceive anyone about? That the rapture is before there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition? Or that the rapture is after there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition?

One thing I think we are all in agreement about, except for maybe Preterists, verse 1 is pertaining to the rapture. And since some pretribbers take---except there come a falling away first---to be meaning this same rapture, that means verse 3 would be being understood like such---for the rapture shall not come, except there come the rapture first--as if one can make any kind of sense out of that.

The way some Pretribbers try and get around this, they claim the gathering in verse 1 is not the same event as the day of Christ in verse 2. Basically then they have verse 3 saying this, as if that makes a difference since verse 2 obviously involves the same event recorded in verse 1 though they deny it---for the day of Christ shall not come, except there come the rapture first.

In verse 1 Paul talks about the gathering unto Christ. So why would he be changing the subject altogether in verse 2, assuming the day of Christ doesn't involve the gathering in verse 1?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


What exactly is it that Paul is warning us about, to let no man deceive you by any means?

The first thing to acknowledge though some apparently don't, the gathering together in verse 1 is meaning during the day of Christ in verse 2. That means verse 3 should be understood as follows.

for our gathering together unto Him, the day of Christ, shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Since this isn't rocket science, there is no need to make something simple complex instead. If read like the following, then it is crystal clear, though it already should be to begin with---except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, our gathering together unto Him, the day of Christ, shall not come

As to Paul's warning in verse 3, this indicates there are deceivers trying to deceive others, otherwise Paul would have had zero reason to even make this warning. So, what is he not wanting these deceivers to deceive anyone about? That the rapture is before there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition? Or that the rapture is after there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition?

One thing I think we are all in agreement about, except for maybe Preterists, verse 1 is pertaining to the rapture. And since some pretribbers take---except there come a falling away first---to be meaning this same rapture, that means verse 3 would be being understood like such---for the rapture shall not come, except there come the rapture first--as if one can make any kind of sense out of that.

The way some Pretribbers try and get around this, they claim the gathering in verse 1 is not the same event as the day of Christ in verse 2. Basically then they have verse 3 saying this, as if that makes a difference since verse 2 obviously involves the same event recorded in verse 1 though they deny it---for the day of Christ shall not come, except there come the rapture first.

In verse 1 Paul talks about the gathering unto Christ. So why would he be changing the subject altogether in verse 2, assuming the day of Christ doesn't involve the gathering in verse 1?

He is not warning us, he is warning 1st century Christians.
Blessings.

 

[DavidPT]

He is not warning us, he is warning 1st century Christians.
Blessings.

Initially he was warning those in the first century. But since none of those events have been fulfilled yet, that should mean this warning is still applicable today. But let's assume this warning was only for those in the first century. What was he warning them to not be deceived about?

 

[keras]

What was he warning them to not be deceived about?

The idea which many Christians still have: That the Return of Jesus is next to happen.

That such an idea is quite wrong, is proved by all the Prophesied things from Revelation 6:12 to Revelation 19:10

As for a 'rapture to heaven', that idea is science fiction gone mad.

 

[Douggg]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


What exactly is it that Paul is warning us about, to let no man deceive you by any means?

The first thing to acknowledge though some apparently don't, the gathering together in verse 1 is meaning during the day of Christ in verse 2. That means verse 3 should be understood as follows.

for our gathering together unto Him, the day of Christ, shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Since this isn't rocket science, there is no need to make something simple complex instead. If read like the following, then it is crystal clear, though it already should be to begin with---except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, our gathering together unto Him, the day of Christ, shall not come

As to Paul's warning in verse 3, this indicates there are deceivers trying to deceive others, otherwise Paul would have had zero reason to even make this warning. So, what is he not wanting these deceivers to deceive anyone about? That the rapture is before there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition? Or that the rapture is after there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition?

One thing I think we are all in agreement about, except for maybe Preterists, verse 1 is pertaining to the rapture. And since some pretribbers take---except there come a falling away first---to be meaning this same rapture, that means verse 3 would be being understood like such---for the rapture shall not come, except there come the rapture first--as if one can make any kind of sense out of that.

The way some Pretribbers try and get around this, they claim the gathering in verse 1 is not the same event as the day of Christ in verse 2. Basically then they have verse 3 saying this, as if that makes a difference since verse 2 obviously involves the same event recorded in verse 1 though they deny it---for the day of Christ shall not come, except there come the rapture first.

In verse 1 Paul talks about the gathering unto Christ. So why would he be changing the subject altogether in verse 2, assuming the day of Christ doesn't involve the gathering in verse 1?

Paul had previously told the Thessalonians that Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God which takes place when the Day of the Lord begins - in 1Thesslaonians5. But will be gathered in the rapture/resurrection event. That is why Paul wrote - whether we wake or sleep in verse 10.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

2Thessalonians2 begins on the premise that there were rumors that the Day of the Lord had already begun - which were troubling to the Thessalonians because they counted on being raptured out of the world before the Day of the Lord begins.

Paul assured the Thessalonians, no it has not begun, no matter what the rumors going around were saying - because first there has to be a great falling - from believing Jesus is the messiah - implied.

And secondly, the man of sin had to be revealed by his act of going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God.

The rapture/resurrection has not happened yet. Neither has the great falling away, nor the man of sin revealed - which there has to be a temple standing for that to happen.

But this being the parable of the fig tree generation, the rapture/resurrection could happen at any moment.

 

[Postvieww]

Paul is clear, there will be no gathering before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Initially he was warning those in the first century. But since none of those events have been fulfilled yet, that should mean this warning is still applicable today. But let's assume this warning was only for those in the first century. What was he warning them to not be deceived about?

I lean more towards a Preterist view. But not completly as I do believe in His second comming in a " twinkle of an eye ". Blessings.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12: A Preterist Commentary–The Man of Lawlessness Revealed! | Revelation Revolution

 

[Douggg]

Paul is clear, there will be no gathering before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

No, verse 2 refers to the Day of the Lord (Christ) will not come until the falling away and the man of sin revealed.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1Thessalonians4:15-18 combined with 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is clear that the gathering unto Jesus in the rapture/resurrection event is before the Day of the Lord (Christ) begins.

the gathering (the rapture/resurrection event)
the falling away
the man of sin revealed, the Day of the Lord begins (wrath of God poured out)

or it may be this...

the falling away
the gathering (the rapture/resurrection event)
the man of sin revealed, the Day of the Lord begins (wrath of God poured out)

but it can't be this...because Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.

the falling away
the man of sin revealed, the Day of the Lord begins (wrath of God poured out)
the gathering (the rapture/resurrection event)

 

[Postvieww]

No, verse 2 refers to the Day of the Lord (Christ) will not come until the falling away and the man of sin revealed.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

1Thessalonians4:15-18 combined with 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is clear that the gathering unto Jesus in the rapture/resurrection event is before the Day of the Lord (Christ) begins.

the gathering (the rapture/resurrection event)
the falling away
the man of sin revealed
the Day of the Lord begins (wrath of God poured out)

1. Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

1. Philippians 1:10

That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

1. Philippians 2:16

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

1 Corinthians 1:8

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wrong , The day of Christ is the day of His return and our gathering after the falling away and the man of sin revealed.

 

[Douggg]

Wrong , The day of Christ is the day of His return and our gathering after the falling away and the man of sin revealed.

No, none of those verses you cited refer to the gathering.

The revealing of the man of sin by him going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God - is what triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Christ). The rapture/resurrection event must take place before then.

 

[Postvieww]

No, none of those verses you cited refer to the gathering.

The revealing of the man of sin by him going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God - is what triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Christ). The rapture/resurrection event must take place before then.

Neither does 2 Thessalonians refer to the wrath of God!

 

[Douggg]

Neither does 2 Thessalonians refer to the wrath of God!

2Thessalonians is a follow up letter from Paul. Paul had already informed the Thessalonians, in 1Thessalonians, that when the Day of the Lord begins, so does God's wrath.

 

[Postvieww]

2Thessalonians is a follow up letter from Paul. Paul had already informed the Thessalonians, in 1Thessalonians, that when the Day of the Lord begins, so does God's wrath.

Take the verses I posted in #9 and show us where the wrath of God fits into the text.

 

[DavidPT]

Paul had previously told the Thessalonians that Christians are not appointed to the wrath of God which takes place when the Day of the Lord begins - in 1Thesslaonians5. But will be gathered in the rapture/resurrection event. That is why Paul wrote - whether we wake or sleep in verse 10.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

2Thessalonians2 begins on the premise that there were rumors that the Day of the Lord had already begun - which were troubling to the Thessalonians because they counted on being raptured out of the world before the Day of the Lord begins.

Paul assured the Thessalonians, no it has not begun, no matter what the rumors going around were saying - because first there has to be a great falling - from believing Jesus is the messiah - implied.

And secondly, the man of sin had to be revealed by his act of going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God.

The rapture/resurrection has not happened yet. Neither has the great falling away, nor the man of sin revealed - which there has to be a temple standing for that to happen.

But this being the parable of the fig tree generation, the rapture/resurrection could happen at any moment.

At least your interpretation, as far as I can tell, is understanding the falling away properly.

Let's examine the text again.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Obviously, the day in question here is meaning the day of Christ is verse 2. The question, though it shouldn't be questionable, is the gathering in verse 1 meaning during the day of Christ? That aside for now, let's examine the chronology in verse 3.

Which of the following agrees with the chronology in that verse?

The day of Christ happens first, followed by a falling away, so that that man of sin can be revealed, the son of perdition.

Or---

a falling away happens first, so that that man of sin can be revealed, the son of perdition, followed by the day of Christ.

If one answers that it's the latter, which it clearly is, this indicates that both this falling away and that man of sin being revealed, both have to be fulfilled before the day of Christ can come. If we place a rapture first, how exactly is that man of sin revealed before the rapture takes place? The way some try and get around this, the gathering in verse 1 is not involving the day of Christ in verse 2. Why wouldn't it be? Because if it is, and surely it is, this means that the rapture can't take place until that man of sin is revealed first.

Look what some Pretribbers are doing here. In verse 3 they insist that the day meant is only meaning the day of Christ in verse 2, and not also the gathering in verse 1. Assuming that scenario that would mean the timing of the rapture is irrelevant in verse 3 since nothing would be involving it. It would be involving the day of Christ, not the rapture, if some are insisting verse 1 and 2 are involving separate events that happen at different times.

Some have tried to get clever about it, though it is hardly an example of being clever about something, the falling away in verse 3, that is meaning the rapture. What they don't factor in though, the falling away is connected with that man of sin being revealed, which basically means this--for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed first, the son of perdition


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


BTW, as to the day of Christ in verse 2, this passage plainly tells us when that occurs and what it involves once it occurs.

When it occurs---after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

What it involves once it occurs---the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Where that is obviously pertaining to the following, for one.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

At this point the rapture obviously has already happened the fact everyone with Christ are seen descending with Him from the sky. But that hardly proves that the rapture occurred before the great trib occurred, though.

 

[Douggg]

Take the verses I posted in #9 and show us where the wrath of God fits into the text.

While the great tribulation (and the seven vials of God's wrath poured out) is taking place here on earth, the prophets and saints are being rewarded in heaven as they stand before the bema seat of Christ (2Corinthians5:10).

Revelaton 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[Douggg]

At this point the rapture obviously has already happened the fact everyone with Christ are seen descending with Him from the sky. But that hardly proves that the rapture occurred before the great trib occurred, though.

The great tribulation begins slightly after the Day of the Lord begins.

The Day of the Lord (Christ) begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act (of Daniel 8:13) which is the 2Thessalonians2:4 act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

transgression of desolation act - triggers the Day of the Lord.
abomination of desolation setup - triggers the great tribulation.

tod, then a month or so later - the aod.

The rapture has to happen before the tod act. The rapture could happen "anytime" before then.

Anytime includes before the 7 year 70th week begins as a possibility - of the pre-trib view (actually pre-70th week view because the proponents of the pre-trib view, in error, call the entire 70th week as tribulation).

The great falling away will take place during the first half of the 70th week, as the world with think the Antichrist is the messiah, and not Jesus. The world will be saying "peace and safety" because it will think it is living in the beginning years of the messianic age.

But like the Antichrist will be a false messiah, so too the thought-to-be by the world messianic age, will be a false messianic age.

I show all these things on my anytime rapture view chart below.

 

[Postvieww]

While the great tribulation (and the seven vials of God's wrath poured out) is taking place here on earth, the prophets and saints are being rewarded in heaven as they stand before the bema seat of Christ (2Corinthians5:10).

Revelaton 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

His coming and our gathering are the topic.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

I propose the day of Christ here is the same day of His coming and our gathering in verse 1 which means our gathering will not happen until the falling away and the man of sin is revealed first.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If we are consistent with 2 Thessalonians 2 the verses below should mean:

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: “which is after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.”

Philippians 1:10

That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.:“which is after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.”

Philippians 2:16
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. “which is after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.”

1 Corinthians 1:8
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
“which is after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.”


Dougg said:“The revealing of the man of sin by him going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God - is what triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord (Christ).”

This is why you many times put Christ in parentheses to change “the Day of Christ” to fit your interpretation of the “day of the Lord”.

No matter how we interpret the day of the Lord , In 2 Thessalonians 2:2 Paul uses “Day of Christ” just has he did in Philippians 1:6, 1:10, 2:16, and 1 Corinthians 1:8. That does not line up with your doctrine on the return of Christ and our gathering.

 

[DavidPT]

The great tribulation begins slightly after the Day of the Lord begins.

That is not reasonable. Great tribulation is wrath upon the church. God is not enacting wrath upon the church during great tribulation, satan is. You, just like Preterists, have the wrath involving the wrong ppl. You both have it involving unbelieving Jews, though in your case, these unbelieving Jews apparently get saved first. And guess what that would make them, assuming this scenario? The church, obviously, except you have the church in heaven at the time, thus the church is spared the time of the great trib. How could it be if it is still here via these alleged unbelieving Jews that become saved after the church is raptured to safety?

There are so many contradictions that a pretrib rapture causes, that it's impossible that a pretrib rapture can be Biblical. I just showed one contradiction above. If the church is not supposed to be here during great trib, then why is it still here via these alleged unbelieving Jews that get saved after the church allegedly exits the planet? Pretrib speaks with a forked tongue. So which is it then? The church is spared the great trib, thus removed from the planet altogether. Or, the church is still here via these alleged unbelieving Jews that become saved after the rapture, thus become part of the church, thus the church isn't spared great tribulation after all.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A question for Preterists. Does it sound like Matthew 24:21 is involving wrath upon unbelieving Jews in light of Revelation 7:14?

A question for Pretribbers. Does it sound like Matthew 24:21 is meaning the church is no longer here in light of Revelation 7:14?

Why would any interpreter think great tribulation in Matthew 24:21 is not involving the same great tribulation‌ Revelation 7:14 is involving? We shouldn't be interpreting Scripture with Scripture in this case?

 

[Douggg]

This is why you many times put Christ in parentheses to change “the Day of Christ” to fit your interpretation of the “day of the Lord”

Christ is the Lord. The day of Christ, day of the Lord is the same thing.

 

[Postvieww]

The great tribulation begins slightly after the Day of the Lord begins.

The Day of the Lord (Christ) begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act (of Daniel 8:13) which is the 2Thessalonians2:4 act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

transgression of desolation act - triggers the Day of the Lord.
abomination of desolation setup - triggers the great tribulation.

Your above statement is in total contradiction to:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The day of Christ is after the man of sin is revealed. The day of Christ is His coming.