legalism

[from scratch]

as for:

2 Cor 3:3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

kind of sounds like this, don't it?:

Jeremiah 31:33(NKJV)
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

do you want to hazard a guess as to what law jer 31:33 is referring to?

(to be continued)

I sure do seeing that is isn't like the covenant made with Israel at Sinai.

 

[from scratch]

No time for your games today. You can answer the question below or get ignored. Your choice.

Deut 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

That sounds like a commandment to me? Am I being legalistic if I keep that command?

And Jesus is quoting it in answer to a question -not issuing it as a command.

 

[from scratch]

Paul says we are saved by grace not works lest any man should boast. That's why I was asking that. If someone is saved by their works, then that means they have room to boast.


Not sure I'm following you.


God has always required obedience to the law. And what exactly is the gospel of grace? Gentiles were always able to join with Israel. The requirements for them to join have changed, that's all.



Keeping the law is impossible without the power of God working in you to do good works. What do you mean by "grace path"?

So since this is within the rhelm of posibilities why hasn't someone been named yet? Of course I'm assuming the normal good works being the observance of the law.

 

[CalmRon]

So can you name at least on individual who has upheld (obeyed) the law with the aid of the Holy Spirit? No one else has, at least yet and I've been asking for a long time.

No I don't agree because first the Scripture says no one has - excellent reason why no one has been named. The righteousness that God requires only comes as a gift courtesy of the blood of Jesus Christ. Oh how God loves us!!!!

The flesh will never conform to God's standard of righteousness. The flesh isn't what is saved or receives eternal life. Only the soul is redeemed.

What do you think is meant by when we walk in the spirit we will not gratify the lusts of the flesh. What when paul mentions that the law is spiritual? You may not like it or call foul but I believe Jesus upheld the law by the spirit. Do you believe that while the law was in effect the Israelites were supposed to seek their own righteousness or do you believe that they midi retread God's intent in introducing the law?

Lastly you mentioned that that our flesh will not be saved only our souls- on this I disagree with the most, what do you make the resurrection will it redeem only our spirit or won't our body be clothed with immortality? That is the blessed hope.

I don't know if I answered you properly.

 

[CalmRon]

I sure do seeing that is isn't like the covenant made with Israel at Sinai.

We can't get anywhere trying to follow God's law in the flesh so what god did, finding fault with the nature of the first covenant, mediated a second covenant through Christ and gave his spirit to enable us to daily die to our flesh nature. Through the spirit we will "naturally" want to uphold the law- I didn't mention we would be perfect, but we will have law written on our hearts- this is the function of the spirit, it conforms us to the image of god.

Now what is the law he Promised to write on our hearts?

 

[Sebbcho]

Don't you guys think legalism is complication the gospel of Christ?
All Christ said was 'repent and believe in the good news for the remission of sin'

 

[JohnRabbit]

We can't get anywhere trying to follow God's law in the flesh so what god did, finding fault with the nature of the first covenant, mediated a second covenant through Christ and gave his spirit to enable us to daily die to our flesh nature. Through the spirit we will "naturally" want to uphold the law- I didn't mention we would be perfect, but we will have law written on our hearts- this is the function of the spirit, it conforms us to the image of god.

Now what is the law he Promised to write on our hearts?

i've been asking from scratch and frogster this question like "forever", and they refuse to answer the question!

 

[JohnRabbit]

I sure do seeing that is isn't like the covenant made with Israel at Sinai.

no it's not. it's a new covenant.

since you guys noticed all of the "withs" in my previous post, why don't you tell me what law will be written in our hearts per jer 31:33.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Don't you guys think legalism is complication the gospel of Christ?
All Christ said was 'repent and believe in the good news for the remission of sin'

He said more than that.

legalism is a term that some have come up with to do away with keeping God's law (rom 8:7). it's as simple as that.

 

[JohnRabbit]

So what exactly was nailed to the cross IYO? The ceremonial laws? Please explain how they're against us? What is the probelm celebrating forgivness?

who said the ceremonial laws were against us?

why don't you tell me what was nailed to the cross?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Whoooooaaaaa….my dear brother. I will prove why the law is and was against us, using all this below. Why else would everyone have a sin debt, it if was not against us? I can prove all this below, USING SCRIPTURE TOO…

The law was added to increase the trespass, temporary, bondage, for children, arouse sin, not the gospel, not of Abraham, contrary to the Spirit, never given to gentiles, works death, not of the cross, condemnation, works wrath, does not give life, does not justify, does not sanctify, is in accordance with the flesh, imprisons, gives sin dominion, cursed under law, the law is legalistic, not grace, not promise, the power of sin is the law, etc..


But. Lets finish the first point, to maintain order, and not deflect and divert off our conversation.

First you quoted the KJV, to which I showed you what Mr. KJV himself, Tyndale said, then without rebuttal to what he said, you posted all those other translations, that said WITH..

Well, do they or do they not say the rules and commands, that gave the debt, go WITH the debt, to the cross right in your very own post?

Seems pretty clear to me, what WITH means, how about you?

God bless, your bro frog.

i've already answered you in post #63, did you not read it?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Just read this verse, and take out apart, and tell me whatcha get?

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.


I thought most think James is just saying that a Chrisitan does good works? Or, do you think there is scriptural contradiction?

Curious....

yes, the scripture says that a christian does good works, so what are we even talking about here?

i've already posted what james said. nevertheless, let's see what the Christ says:

Matthew 5:16(NKJV)
16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

you guys get caught up in this "works unto salvation" and i can't understand why. the bible no where speaks of any such thing.

this is what i believe (have told you this many times before):

no one can do any works to "earn" salvation!

no one can keep any law that wil save them (gal 3:11,21)!

Galatians 3:24(NKJV)
24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

the law was our "tutor" to bring us to Christ! that don't sound like something that is against us to me. seems to me, anything that brings one to Christ is a good thing! (in the interest of clairity, the law that served as a tutor was the ceremonial law)

i believe that the law(the ten), faith and works all work together in the christians life.

Romans 3:27-31(NKJV)
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

God has already shone us His way of living (deut 8:6), His laws express that way.

we can't live by the law in the flesh, but Christ in us can (gal 2:20) and the christian lives everyday with faith that Christ will do this for us by His Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

living by the principles of the law, one will produce good works (james 2:20, matt 5:16), good fruit, even (gal 5:22-23). this is establishing the law, establishing the way of God, even.

all of this business about wanting "moses for the gentiles" or "going back to bondage" is bunch of ridiculousness to me, doesn't even make sense.

so, "walking in the spirit" means this to me:

Romans 8:4-5(NKJV)
4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

the law is spiritual (rom 7:14)

if we walk according to the spirit, we will fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. (establishing)

Romans 7:6(NKJV)
6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

now here's another question for you (although i know you won't answer it), the "oldness of the letter" of what?

 

[Frogster]

i've already answered you in post #63, did you not read it?

I read it, nothing there about the WITH issue.

You posted all those verses to act like it was just the debt, that got nailed, and not the law..

Sooooo.

Did the legal demand, the rules, go with it, the debt, to the cross?


Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross

 

[Frogster]

yes, the scripture says that a christian does good works, so what are we even talking about here?

i've already posted what james said. nevertheless, let's see what the Christ says:

Matthew 5:16(NKJV)
16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

you guys get caught up in this "works unto salvation" and i can't understand why. the bible no where speaks of any such thing.

this is what i believe (have told you this many times before):

no one can do any works to "earn" salvation!

no one can keep any law that wil save them (gal 3:11,21)!

Galatians 3:24(NKJV)
24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Just for biblical clarity, it does not say "lead us to Christ", in the Greek, it just says until, and it was an imprisoning agent. It just says, "until Christ".

Prison in sin,WHILE UNDER LAW! What does that tell you about law?

22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

the law was our "tutor" to bring us to Christ! that don't sound like something that is against us to me. seems to me, anything that brings one to Christ is a good thing! (in the interest of clairity, the law that served as a tutor was the ceremonial law)

i believe that the law(the ten), faith and works all work together in the christians life.

Romans 3:27-31(NKJV)
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

God has already shone us His way of living (deut 8:6), His laws express that way.

we can't live by the law in the flesh, but Christ in us can (gal 2:20) and the christian lives everyday with faith that Christ will do this for us by His Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

living by the principles of the law, one will produce good works (james 2:20, matt 5:16), good fruit, even (gal 5:22-23). this is establishing the law, establishing the way of God, even.

all of this business about wanting "moses for the gentiles" or "going back to bondage" is bunch of ridiculousness to me, doesn't even make sense.

so, "walking in the spirit" means this to me:

Romans 8:4-5(NKJV)
4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

the law is spiritual (rom 7:14)

if we walk according to the spirit, we will fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. (establishing)

Romans 7:6(NKJV)
6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

now here's another question for you (although i know you won't answer it), the "oldness of the letter" of what?

 

[Frogster]

Maybe somoene else, will help froggy, and tell me what WITH means?

 

[Frogster]

What do you think is meant by when we walk in the spirit we will not gratify the lusts of the flesh. What when paul mentions that the law is spiritual? You may not like it or call foul but I believe Jesus upheld the law by the spirit. Do you believe that while the law was in effect the Israelites were supposed to seek their own righteousness or do you believe that they midi retread God's intent in introducing the law?

Lastly you mentioned that that our flesh will not be saved only our souls- on this I disagree with the most, what do you make the resurrection will it redeem only our spirit or won't our body be clothed with immortality? That is the blessed hope.

I don't know if I answered you properly.

Hi Ron.

Here is the problem. You quoted gal 5:16, walk in Spirit, not flesh.

Ok, but what about the fact, that we don't want to get snared by law? Do we want sin arousal, condemnation etc?

He says in 2 verses down, walk in the spirit and you won't be under law.

5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

The Galatians had the Spirit, were running well, 5:7, without law, and then the mess came, after the law people came.

So what's the solution? Fusion? Because every time Jer 31 comes up, most use it to lay law down.

Did Abraham, have the law, while justified by faith, and used alot as the exampl of, "the just shall live by faith", j uxtaposed to living under law, gal 3:11-12?

 

[Frogster]

So can you name at least on individual who has upheld (obeyed) the law with the aid of the Holy Spirit? No one else has, at least yet and I've been asking for a long time.

No I don't agree because first the Scripture says no one has - excellent reason why no one has been named. The righteousness that God requires only comes as a gift courtesy of the blood of Jesus Christ. Oh how God loves us!!!!

The flesh will never conform to God's standard of righteousness. The flesh isn't what is saved or receives eternal life. Only the soul is redeemed.

Excellent point, Rom 7, saved paul, had sin aroused, by law.

 

[from scratch]

yes, the scripture says that a christian does good works, so what are we even talking about here?

So what does James say those good works are? I don't read them as obedience to the law. If I quote them you'll just deny them. So I need you to list those good works spoken about in James 2. Thanks.

i've already posted what james said. nevertheless, let's see what the Christ says:

Matthew 5:16(NKJV)
16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

This says nothing about obedience to the law.

you guys get caught up in this "works unto salvation" and i can't understand why. the bible no where speaks of any such thing.

this is what i believe (have told you this many times before):

no one can do any works to "earn" salvation!

no one can keep any law that wil save them (gal 3:11,21)!

Galatians 3:24(NKJV)
24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

the law was our "tutor" to bring us to Christ! that don't sound like something that is against us to me. seems to me, anything that brings one to Christ is a good thing! (in the interest of clairity, the law that served as a tutor was the ceremonial law)

i believe that the law(the ten), faith and works all work together in the christians life.

Please notice this phrase - was our tutor to bring us to Christ. The word was is past tense meaning has been in this case. And who is the law for these days? I read - 8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Does this mean that a Christian is free to sin? No! 13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Romans 3:27-31(NKJV)
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Now what works would Paul be talking about? Isn't it works of the law opposed to good works as emphasized by James? Good works and works of the law are 2 different animals.

God has already shone us His way of living (deut 8:6), His laws express that way.

we can't live by the law in the flesh, but Christ in us can (gal 2:20) and the christian lives everyday with faith that Christ will do this for us by His Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

living by the principles of the law, one will produce good works (james 2:20, matt 5:16), good fruit, even (gal 5:22-23). this is establishing the law, establishing the way of God, even.
​

In your dreams.

all of this business about wanting "moses for the gentiles" or "going back to bondage" is bunch of ridiculousness to me, doesn't even make sense.

So glad you qualified that statement.

so, "walking in the spirit" means this to me:

Romans 8:4-5(NKJV)
4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Let's include a little more Scripture here as you have used half a sentence to base something on.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

First the law wasn't successful in spiritual things.

Second Paul is calling the law the flesh in contrasting it to the Spirit.

Third carnally means the flesh and is death. Remember the flesh is the law here.

the law is spiritual (rom 7:14)

The law is indeed spiritual, but it isn't the Spirit!!!

if we walk according to the spirit, we will fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. (establishing)

Fulfill isn't obedience to the law.

Romans 7:6(NKJV)
6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

now here's another question for you (although i know you won't answer it), the "oldness of the letter" of what?

How are we obligated to the law we have been delivered from? Our relationship is now in the the newness of the Spirit and not according to written codified law. Please notice the word 'not' in the last part of the sentence highlighted.

 

[Frogster]

He said more than that.

legalism is a term that some have come up with to do away with keeping God's law (rom 8:7). it's as simple as that.

Paul called living under law legalism.



New International Version (©1984)
Phil 3:as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

 

[Frogster]

So what does James say those good works are? I don't read them as obedience to the law. If I quote them you'll just deny them. So I need you to list those good works spoken about in James 2. Thanks.This says nothing about obedience to the law.Please notice this phrase - was our tutor to bring us to Christ. The word was is past tense meaning has been in this case. And who is the law for these days? I read - 8But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;9Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Does this mean that a Christian is free to sin? No! 13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.Now what works would Paul be talking about? Isn't it works of the law opposed to good works as emphasized by James? Good works and works of the law are 2 different animals.In your dreams.So glad you qualified that statement.Let's include a little more Scripture here as you have used half a sentence to base something on.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

First the law wasn't successful in spiritual things.

Second Paul is calling the law the flesh in contrasting it to the Spirit.

Third carnally means the flesh and is death. Remember the flesh is the law here.The law is indeed spiritual, but it isn't the Spirit!!!Fulfill isn't obedience to the law.How are we obligated to the law we have been delivered from? Our relationship is now in the the newness of the Spirit and not according to written codified law. Please notice the word 'not' in the last part of the sentence highlighted.