legalism

[Frogster]

be back later ron, my wife is yelling at me!

 

[CalmRon]

Talk later

 

[JohnRabbit]

LOL..with it's legal decress! WITH..!Again! With..with..it's requirements. With..Again, with..legal reqirements went woith it! lol..with.WITH...binding rules..WITH ..THE RULES WENT TOO!WHAT DOES WITH MEAN?WITH, the law's OBLIGATIONS...WITH....THE decrees went also!With , with..If I go with you to the store WITH YOU, we both went to the store, with the rules! Expressed, in....they both went to the cross.with the regulations, with!

You quoted writing alot, in your other post, then i show u Tyndale, and how the bible calls it writing, for the 10, and you do this now?


WITH...

the bible calls it the writing for the ten? really?

this "writing" (col 2:14), seems to be the ten commandments as you put it, and some of the translations i posted seem to think this too.

explain to me how something that is holy, just and good (rom 7:12) is against us, seems to me, it is for us.

while you're explaining, please tell me why God would write something Himself, that would be against us.

also, explain this:

Deuteronomy 4:4-8(NKJV)
4But you who held fast to the Lord your God are alive today, every one of you.
5“Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess.
6Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’
7“For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him?
8And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

so, i'm to believe that the statutes and judgments of God are "against us" and He wants to nail it to the cross? moses said they are righteous (deut 4:8), even!

and what about this?

Deuteronomy 8:6(NKJV)
6“Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.

Deuteronomy 10:12(NKJV)
12“And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,

God expressed "His way" through His laws! so, according to you and the majority of "chritianity", we are to believe that this "way" is against us, and of course God doesn't want it for us because He nailed it to the cross.

the psalmist said:

Psalms 119:172(NKJV)
172 My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

"commandments that are righteousness", "laws that express His way", and "ways in which we are to act", were nailed to the cross?

can't go there with you.

whatever was against us that was in our way (col 2:14), couldn't have been the ten commandments, wouldn't add up with the verses i've posted here!

the ten commandments are for us, not against.

Romans 7:7(NKJV)
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

bottom line is for me, i believe what paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 7:19(NKJV)
19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

obviously you don't.

 

[JohnRabbit]

I'm sorry I cannot reply directly to you post frogster, I'm on my phone and it doesn't allow me to scroll. How let me say this and back up here- I completely concur with you that our salvation is by faith ALONE. I wanted to eliminate at least one strawman before I continue. The issue at hand is not the nature our salvation but rather our conduct in this salvation. Now which of these position do you believe is supported by scripture? That with our liberty we may do whatever we'd like or that liberty in christ is freedom sin? In other words what should our daily intent as Christians be?

what i've highlighted in your post is not what the bible says!

here's what the bible says:

James 2:20(KJV)
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thank you for killing the strawman for me. I see it all the threads and I am sick of the cyclical arguments that seem revolve around this fine point. Another words in practice are not anti nomian.

That tends to happen a lot in these Sabbath threads from what I have noticed

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=57963055
Keeping Sabbath is legalism. I praise it!

http://www.christianforums.com/t2943560/
Ordinances...

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"ordinances"
occurs 10 times in 10 verses in the YLT

Last time used in Bible:

Young) Hebrews 9:10 only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances--till the time of reformation imposed upon [them].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinance_(Christian)


Ordinance is a ProtestantChristian term for baptism, communion and other religious rituals.
Some Protestants, like the Mennonites[1], do not call them "sacraments" because they believe these rituals are outward expressions of faith, rather than impartations of God's grace.

 

[Frogster]

the bible calls it the writing for the ten? really?



this "writing" (col 2:14), seems to be the ten commandments as you put it, and some of the translations i posted seem to think this too.

explain to me how something that is holy, just and good (rom 7:12) is against us, seems to me, it is for us.

while you're explaining, please tell me why God would write something Himself, that would be against us.

also, explain this:

Deuteronomy 4:4-8(NKJV)
4But you who held fast to the Lord your God are alive today, every one of you.
5“Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess.
6Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’
7“For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him?
8And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

so, i'm to believe that the statutes and judgments of God are "against us" and He wants to nail it to the cross? moses said they are righteous (deut 4:8), even!

and what about this?

Deuteronomy 8:6(NKJV)
6“Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.

Deuteronomy 10:12(NKJV)
12“And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,

God expressed "His way" through His laws! so, according to you and the majority of "chritianity", we are to believe that this "way" is against us, and of course God doesn't want it for us because He nailed it to the cross.

the psalmist said:

Psalms 119:172(NKJV)
172 My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

"commandments that are righteousness", "laws that express His way", and "ways in which we are to act", were nailed to the cross?

can't go there with you.

whatever was against us that was in our way (col 2:14), couldn't have been the ten commandments, wouldn't add up with the verses i've posted here!

the ten commandments are for us, not against.

Romans 7:7(NKJV)
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

bottom line is for me, i believe what paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 7:19(NKJV)
19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

obviously you don't.

Whoooooaaaaa….my dear brother. I will prove why the law is and was against us, using all this below. Why else would everyone have a sin debt, it if was not against us? I can prove all this below, USING SCRIPTURE TOO…

The law was added to increase the trespass, temporary, bondage, for children, arouse sin, not the gospel, not of Abraham, contrary to the Spirit, never given to gentiles, works death, not of the cross, condemnation, works wrath, does not give life, does not justify, does not sanctify, is in accordance with the flesh, imprisons, gives sin dominion, cursed under law, the law is legalistic, not grace, not promise, the power of sin is the law, etc..


But. Lets finish the first point, to maintain order, and not deflect and divert off our conversation.

First you quoted the KJV, to which I showed you what Mr. KJV himself, Tyndale said, then without rebuttal to what he said, you posted all those other translations, that said WITH..

Well, do they or do they not say the rules and commands, that gave the debt, go WITH the debt, to the cross right in your very own post?

Seems pretty clear to me, what WITH means, how about you?

God bless, your bro frog.

 

[Frogster]

what i've highlighted in your post is not what the bible says!

here's what the bible says:

James 2:20(KJV)
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

Just read this verse, and take out apart, and tell me whatcha get?

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.


I thought most think James is just saying that a Chrisitan does good works? Or, do you think there is scriptural contradiction?

Curious....

 

[CalmRon]

what i've highlighted in your post is not what the bible says!

here's what the bible says:

James 2:20(KJV)
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

Jame states also (paraphrasing) you say you believe and I'll show you I believe by my works- I don't disagree with you either. But what do disagree with is this fixation with separating faith and works. As though we could saved by our efforts or a meaningless profession saves. It is by faith but is your definition of faith.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

James 2:20(KJV)
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

Jame states also (paraphrasing) you say you believe and I'll show you I believe by my works- I don't disagree with you either. But what do disagree with is this fixation with separating faith and works. As though we could saved by our efforts or a meaningless profession saves. It is by faith but is your definition of faith.

I like what my bro James says to the the crowd after Peter spoke to 'em in Acts 21

Young) Acts 21:12 And all the multitude did keep silence, and were hearkening to Barnabas and Paul, declaring as many signs and wonders as God did among the nations through them;
13 and after they are silent, James answered, saying, `Men, brethren, hearken to me;
25 `And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we have written, having given judgment, that they observe no such thing, except to keep themselves both from idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.'

YouTube - ‪Ted Nugent - Stranglehold‬‏

 

[Frogster]

I like what my bro James says to the the crowd after Peter spoke to 'em in Acts 21

Young) Acts 21:12 And all the multitude did keep silence, and were hearkening to Barnabas and Paul, declaring as many signs and wonders as God did among the nations through them;
13 and after they are silent, James answered, saying, `Men, brethren, hearken to me;
25 `And concerning those of the nations who have believed, we have written, having given judgment, that they observe no such thing, except to keep themselves both from idol-sacrifices, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom.'

YouTube - ‪Ted Nugent - Stranglehold‬‏

Yes, from James himself, who in 15 also said not to burden the Gentiles, with Mosaic works.

 

[Frogster]

The 10 were written...stone...stone....

Exodus 31:18
And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


Mr Tyndale Col 2:14 and hath put out the obligation that was against us, made in the law written, and that hath he taken out of the way, and hath fastened it on his cross,

 

[from scratch]

the bible calls it the writing for the ten? really?

this "writing" (col 2:14), seems to be the ten commandments as you put it, and some of the translations i posted seem to think this too.

explain to me how something that is holy, just and good (rom 7:12) is against us, seems to me, it is for us.

while you're explaining, please tell me why God would write something Himself, that would be against us.

also, explain this:

Deuteronomy 4:4-8(NKJV)
4But you who held fast to the Lord your God are alive today, every one of you.
5“Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess.
6Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’
7“For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him?
8And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

so, i'm to believe that the statutes and judgments of God are "against us" and He wants to nail it to the cross? moses said they are righteous (deut 4:8), even!

and what about this?

Deuteronomy 8:6(NKJV)
6“Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.

Deuteronomy 10:12(NKJV)
12“And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,

God expressed "His way" through His laws! so, according to you and the majority of "chritianity", we are to believe that this "way" is against us, and of course God doesn't want it for us because He nailed it to the cross.

the psalmist said:

Psalms 119:172(NKJV)
172 My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

"commandments that are righteousness", "laws that express His way", and "ways in which we are to act", were nailed to the cross?

can't go there with you.

whatever was against us that was in our way (col 2:14), couldn't have been the ten commandments, wouldn't add up with the verses i've posted here!

the ten commandments are for us, not against.

Romans 7:7(NKJV)
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

bottom line is for me, i believe what paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 7:19(NKJV)
19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

obviously you don't.

So what exactly was nailed to the cross IYO? The ceremonial laws? Please explain how they're against us? What is the probelm celebrating forgivness?

 

[from scratch]

what i've highlighted in your post is not what the bible says!

here's what the bible says:

James 2:20(KJV)
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

Now what are those works that James talks about?

 

[from scratch]

Jame states also (paraphrasing) you say you believe and I'll show you I believe by my works- I don't disagree with you either. But what do disagree with is this fixation with separating faith and works. As though we could saved by our efforts or a meaningless profession saves. It is by faith but is your definition of faith.

So I'm not the only one who notices this fact. Oh yes there are more of that notice to.

It is just nice to respond to a different person on the subject. I certianly don't slight my regular buddies either.

 

[from scratch]

I'm sorry I cannot reply directly to you post frogster, I'm on my phone and it doesn't allow me to scroll. How let me say this and back up here- I completely concur with you that our salvation is by faith ALONE. I wanted to eliminate at least one strawman before I continue. The issue at hand is not the nature our salvation but rather our conduct in this salvation. Now which of these position do you believe is supported by scripture? That with our liberty we may do whatever we'd like or that liberty in christ is freedom sin? In other words what should our daily intent as Christians be?

I'm glad that someone else will speak about the issues. I've quoted Gal 5:19-21 often concerning this. It always falls on deaf ears. The NC covenant treats sin very differently.There is no permission or license to sin promoted by anyone here that I know of. So that is a false premise.

All that said the law doesn't have jurisdiction of any kind over the Christian - The Spirit does. The Holy Spirit won't lead on to sin or the law per Gal 5:18.

 

[from scratch]

Your contention that Paul didn't regard the mosaic law as upholding faith is absurd after all David and the prophets were well familiar with the law as you know and where do you think the prophets got the things they said? Where did Jesus the greatest prophet get some the things he said? Again it's true we can not pursue a righteousness in the law of our selves because time and time again we fail the same was for the Jews; the law was meant to point us to Christ not to give us righteousness but this doesn't nullify the fact that a holy God demands holiness or do you believe God changes? This goofy unconditional grace(read God's favor) will condemn many. We are not saved by works but works through faith will justify you- why do you think it says that the doer of the law shall be justified and not just the hearer?

The prhase not under the law occurs 3 times and under the law 7 times total and not a single one of them indicate the Christian is obligated to the law.

It isn't that Paul didn't have high regard for the law. But Paul very clearly teaches the law doesn't apply to the Christian. In fact he says throw it out Gal 4:30. He uses a womanin the illustration. Now some wish to throw out only part of the woman and keep the parts they like. This would line up with the fact that Paul calls the law elemental and of the flesh. The flesh lusts after desirable parts (um - er - well different things appeal to different people).

What I really don't understand is the attraction to death. But people insist on dying to get in. They're even very inventive. But the law is the ministration of death.

 

[from scratch]

So then we concur that righteousness is not ourselves. However by walking in the spirit is how we have the power to uphold the law. Righteous comes by faith as we all should emphatically state. For the law is spiritual and the natural man is carnal minded and can not please but if we walk in the spirit we can through a day by day process put to death the natural man; then can we live a life in the righteousness that god requires of his saints. Agreed?

We are then destined to be conformed to the the image God in Christ Jesus if we continue in this saving faith until the end.

So can you name at least on individual who has upheld (obeyed) the law with the aid of the Holy Spirit? No one else has, at least yet and I've been asking for a long time.

No I don't agree because first the Scripture says no one has - excellent reason why no one has been named. The righteousness that God requires only comes as a gift courtesy of the blood of Jesus Christ. Oh how God loves us!!!!

The flesh will never conform to God's standard of righteousness. The flesh isn't what is saved or receives eternal life. Only the soul is redeemed.

 

[from scratch]

Hi Froggy......why are you so picky with one word
Just curious bro

Textus Rec.)
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw
W-H )
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw
Byz./Maj.)
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw

Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV <1813> (5660) {BLOTTING-OUT} to <3588> {THE} kaq <2596> {AGAINST} hmwn <2257> {US} ceirografon <5498> {HANDWRITING} toiV <3588> {TO THE} dogmasin <1378> {DECREES} o <3739> {WHICH} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} upenantion <5227> {ADVERSE} hmin <2254> {TO US,} kai <2532> {AND} auto <846> {IT} hrken <142> (5758) {HE HAS TAKEN} ek <1537> {OUT OF} tou <3588> {THE} mesou <3319> {MIDST,} proshlwsaV <4338> (5660) {HAVING NAILED} auto <846> {IT} tw <3588> {TO THE} staurw <4716> {CROSS;}

Even periods are very important and one wonders about 4 letters. I think he did a great job showing the importance of with.

 

[from scratch]

You didn't answer the question. My question has nothing to do with what one could eventually do. I'm talking about following the commandment. If I love God then I'm following the commandment. If I'm following that commandment am I a legalist?

And I don't know what nature you have, but I don't evaluate anyone the same way I evaluate myself. If the bible says going left is wrong, then going left is wrong. It's that simple.

However, if someone has been deceived into believing that going left is right, and they live according to the light given them by God while going left. God's mercy covers them. It's only when someone shuns the Spirit in accepting truth that they are lost. And it is not my place to say if or when someone has shunned the Spirit. God works on people according to His timing.

And that truth is....

 

[from scratch]

Whatcha talking bout Willis? The "some" was God...

Exodus 31:18
And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. [

Good call!!!