legalism

[Mr Dave]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6775246-6/#post57983635 Keep it clean LLOJ

 

[Frogster]

walked into it, huh? well, let's see...

Colossians 2:14
إِ
Colossians 2:14 American Standard Version (ASV)
having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the
cross;

Colossians 2:14 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Having cancelled and blotted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note (bond) with its legal decrees and demands which was in force and stood
against us (hostile to us). This [note with its regulations, decrees, and demands] He set aside and cleared completely out of our way by nailing it to
[His] cross.
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation

LOL..with it's legal decress! WITH..!

Colossians 2:14 Common English Bible (CEB)
He destroyed the record of the debt we owed, with its requirements that worked against us. He canceled it by nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © 2011 Common English Bible. All rights reserved.

Again! With..with..it's requirements. With..

Colossians 2:14 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
God wiped out the charges that were against us for disobeying the Law of Moses. He took them away and nailed them to the cross.
Copyright © 1995 by American Bible Society

Colossians 2:14 Catholic Public Domain Version (CPDV)
and wiping away the handwriting of the decree which was against us, which was contrary to us. And he has taken this away from your midst, affixing it to
the Cross.

Colossians 2:14 Douay Rheims (DRA)
Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the
cross:

Colossians 2:14 English Standard Version (ESV)
by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers

Again, with..legal reqirements went woith it! lol..with.

Colossians 2:14 Good News Translation (GNT)
he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © Scripture taken from the Good News Translation (r) (Today's English Version, Second Edition) Copyright (c) 1992 American Bible Society. Used
by Permission.

WITH...binding rules..WITH ..THE RULES WENT TOO!

Colossians 2:14 Good News Translation with Deuterocanonicals/Apocrypha (GNTD)
he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © Scripture taken from the Good News Translation (r) (Today's English Version, Second Edition) Copyright (c) 1992 American Bible Society. Used
by Permission.

WHAT DOES WITH MEAN?

Colossians 2:14 GOD'S WORD Translation (GWT)
He did this by erasing the charges that were brought against us by the written laws God had established. He took the charges away by nailing them to the
cross.
Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations

Colossians 2:14 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the
cross.
Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2009 by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. All rights reserved

WITH, the law's OBLIGATIONS...WITH....

Colossians 2:14 King James Version (KJV)
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:14 Lexham English Bible (LEB)
having destroyed the certificate of indebtedness in ordinances against us, which was hostile to us, and removed it out of the way by nailing it to the
cross.
Copyright © 2010 Logos Bible Software. Lexham is a registered trademark of Logos Bible Software

Colossians 2:14 The Message (MSG)
the slate wiped clean, that old arrest warrant canceled and nailed to Christ's Cross.
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 Eugene H. Peterson by NavPress Publishing

Colossians 2:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed
it to the cross.
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

THE decrees went also!

Colossians 2:14 New Century Version (NCV)
He canceled the debt, which listed all the rules we failed to follow. He took away that record with its rules and nailed it to the cross.
Copyright © 2005 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. All rights reserved. Used by permission.

With , with..If I go with you to the store WITH YOU, we both went to the store, with the rules!

Colossians 2:14 New English Translation (NET)
He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © 1996 - 2007 by Biblical Studies Press, LLC

Expressed, in....they both went to the cross.

Colossians 2:14 NIV (NIV)
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © Holy Bible, New International Version, NIV. Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved
worldwide.

Colossians 2:14 NIV 1984 (NIV84)
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by Biblica, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.

Colossians 2:14 New International Version Anglicized (NIVUK)
having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © 1979, 1984 by International Bible Society ©, Used by Permission. All rights reserved worldwide

with the regulations, with!

Colossians 2:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to
the cross.
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. All rights reserved. Used by permission.

Colossians 2:14 New Living Translation (NLT)
He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © Holy Bible, New Living Translation copyright 1996, 2004, 2007 by Tyndale house Foundation. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers,
Inc., Carol Stream, Illinois, 60188. All rights reserved.

Kehilah in Colossae 2:14 Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
Having erased the handsigned sefer of guilt choiv (debt), the heavenly indictment against us in the maleh chukat haTorah (full statute requirement of
the Torah), which was against us. Moshiach has done away with this opposing record, having nailed it to Moshiach's Etz.
Copyright © 2002,2003,2008,2010,2011 by Artists for Israel International, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

Colossians 2:14 TNIV (TNIV)
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.
Copyright © Holy Bible, Today's New International Version, TNIV. Copyright 2001, 2005 by Biblica, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved
worldwide.

Colossians 2:14 World English Bible (WEB)
wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

there are some translations that seem to think that it was God's law nailed to the cross. that in itself should make one pause (rom 7:7,12,14).

as for:

2 Cor 3:3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

kind of sounds like this, don't it?:

Jeremiah 31:33(NKJV)
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

do you want to hazard a guess as to what law jer 31:33 is referring to?

(to be continued)

You quoted writing alot, in your other post, then i show u Tyndale, and how the bible calls it writing, for the 10, and you do this now?


WITH...

 

[Frogster]

Here, just look at the twin epistle, we have abolishment, the cross, and the body of Jesus. Col 2:14.


eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near

 

[Frogster]

another major transltaion..with..with..


NRSV 14erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross.

Law, the legal demands went WITH..WITH..to the cross. the law was one deal.



With...

Did my bro forget this niv version? The written code cancelled, the law, see romans 2.

27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6775246-6/#post57983635 Keep it clean LLOJ

But of course!
Wat kinda guy do ya think I iz

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

2 more major transltaions..with..with..
NRSV 14erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross.

Law, the legal demadns went WITH..WITH..

ESV14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross

With...

Colossians 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Hi Froggy......why are you so picky with one word
Just curious bro

Textus Rec.)
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw
W-H )
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw
Byz./Maj.)
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw

Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV <1813> (5660) {BLOTTING-OUT} to <3588> {THE} kaq <2596> {AGAINST} hmwn <2257> {US} ceirografon <5498> {HANDWRITING} toiV <3588> {TO THE} dogmasin <1378> {DECREES} o <3739> {WHICH} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} upenantion <5227> {ADVERSE} hmin <2254> {TO US,} kai <2532> {AND} auto <846> {IT} hrken <142> (5758) {HE HAS TAKEN} ek <1537> {OUT OF} tou <3588> {THE} mesou <3319> {MIDST,} proshlwsaV <4338> (5660) {HAVING NAILED} auto <846> {IT} tw <3588> {TO THE} staurw <4716> {CROSS;}

 

[New_Wineskin]

I cannot believe that I meissed this thread .

anyone care to define it for me... it get's used a lot on the forum, but I have never seen anyone give it a concrete definition.


Steve

Really ? Never ? Common there , Steve .

Ok , rough draft off the top of my head ... Legalism is essentially considering that a work is *needed* ( important , required , should do , supposed to do , etc ) for anything regarding one's spiritual state thinking that the Lord wants you to do it when the Lord did not directly tell you to do it or not do it .

How's that ?

 

[CalmRon]

It's good to see that the same old controversy pops up frequently in GT. In a answer the first post of cyberlizard- legalism is the belief that we are saved by what we do. However it is amusing to read the caricature that is frogsters posts- while he is correct in saying that our salvation is by faith- few if anyone argues that; we are not freed by the responsibility of our actions- Christian faith isn't against the law but rather it upholds it. The verse was quoted by littlelamb earlier about how the law is written on our hearts.

 

[Frogster]

Hi Froggy......why are you so picky with one word
Just curious bro

Textus Rec.)
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw
W-H )
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw
Byz./Maj.)
Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV to kaq hmwn ceirografon toiV dogmasin o hn upenantion hmin kai auto hrken ek tou mesou proshlwsaV auto tw staurw

Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Colossians 2:14 exaleiyaV <1813> (5660) {BLOTTING-OUT} to <3588> {THE} kaq <2596> {AGAINST} hmwn <2257> {US} ceirografon <5498> {HANDWRITING} toiV <3588> {TO THE} dogmasin <1378> {DECREES} o <3739> {WHICH} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} upenantion <5227> {ADVERSE} hmin <2254> {TO US,} kai <2532> {AND} auto <846> {IT} hrken <142> (5758) {HE HAS TAKEN} ek <1537> {OUT OF} tou <3588> {THE} mesou <3319> {MIDST,} proshlwsaV <4338> (5660) {HAVING NAILED} auto <846> {IT} tw <3588> {TO THE} staurw <4716> {CROSS;}

Welp, first our bro quotes the KJV, to which I have shown what 1611 Tyndale said, how it was the law

Then he pastes all those translations, in which they even say WITH..

In other words, the decrees, the legal demands, rules, went with the bond, because the law was one. So in his very rebuttal, those translations, show how the law was one, the decrees, the law, the rules, went with the bond, to the cross. It was not just the debt, it was what created the debt, if not, we would all be debtors, transgressors all over again.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Welp, first our bro quotes the KJV, to which I have shown what 1611 Tyndale said, how it was the law

Then he pastes all those translations, in which they even say WITH..

In other words, the decrees, the legal demands, rules, went with the bond, because the law was one. So in his very rebuttal, those translations, show how the law was one, the decrees, the law, the rules, went with the bond, to the cross. It was not just the debt, it was what created the debt, if not, we would all be debtors, transgressors all over again.

Ahhh, I see said the blind man.
Were you aware a Mod reopened this discussion on Colos 2:14
Any who, I gotta go get some vittles......bbl

http://www.christianforums.com/t6775246/
Col. 2 and the Law

Col. 2:14 is one verse people love to use to try to say that Paul did away with God’s Law. We need to understand what this verse is really talking about.
The Romans nailed two things to the cross 1) They nailed Jesus to the cross. 2) They nailed a sign stating that He was the king of the Jews to the cross. (i.e. the charge against Him) But Paul says, (figuratively) that “the handwriting of requirements that was against us” was also nailed to the cross.
This is the only place in the NT that these Greek words (handwriting of requirements) are used. This is a legal document, hand written by the criminal, stating the charges against him, (in our case the charge is that we have sinned; Ro. 3:23) and the debt that he owes. (our debt or penalty is death; Ro. 6:23.) This is what was nailed to the cross, not God’s Law. Read “Friberg Lexicon” and also “Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words” for a further explanation.

 

[Frogster]

It's good to see that the same old controversy pops up frequently in GT. In a answer the first post of cyberlizard- legalism is the belief that we are saved by what we do. However it is amusing to read the caricature that is frogsters posts- while he is correct in saying that our salvation is by faith- few if anyone argues that; we are not freed by the responsibility of our actions- Christian faith isn't against the law but rather it upholds it. The verse was quoted by littlelamb earlier about how the law is written on our hearts.

Romans 3:31, asks a question. Does this justifying faith (of jew and gentile), uphold the law?

Well, we know Gal 3:12, says the law is not of faith, so could you please tell me where in the mosaic law, justifying faith, is upheld?

Please try to understand, that law, in scripture, does not always mean Mosiac. Where did Paul go, to answer the question of 31? Into Moses to uphold Moses, or did he uphold the OT, otherwise, called the law? He went into the OT, the Psalms and Genesis in Rom 4, to answer the question of Rom 3:31.

Paul was saying that the justifying faith, of jew and gentile, were in the OT all along, where he upheld that. What does the OT say?

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? &#8220;Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.&#8221;

He will now uphold the OT, (not Mosaic law) by answering the question of 31, showing the justifying faith of Jewish David, and Gentile Abraham, to answer the very question here>


31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

That was the whole context there, seen previously here>

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one&#8212;who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

 

[Frogster]

.

 

[CalmRon]

I'm sorry I cannot reply directly to you post frogster, I'm on my phone and it doesn't allow me to scroll. How let me say this and back up here- I completely concur with you that our salvation is by faith ALONE. I wanted to eliminate at least one strawman before I continue. The issue at hand is not the nature our salvation but rather our conduct in this salvation. Now which of these position do you believe is supported by scripture? That with our liberty we may do whatever we'd like or that liberty in christ is freedom sin? In other words what should our daily intent as Christians be?

 

[CalmRon]

Your contention that Paul didn't regard the mosaic law as upholding faith is absurd after all David and the prophets were well familiar with the law as you know and where do you think the prophets got the things they said? Where did Jesus the greatest prophet get some the things he said? Again it's true we can not pursue a righteousness in the law of our selves because time and time again we fail the same was for the Jews; the law was meant to point us to Christ not to give us righteousness but this doesn't nullify the fact that a holy God demands holiness or do you believe God changes? This goofy unconditional grace(read God's favor) will condemn many. We are not saved by works but works through faith will justify you- why do you think it says that the doer of the law shall be justified and not just the hearer?

 

[Frogster]

I'm sorry I cannot reply directly to you post frogster, I'm on my phone and it doesn't allow me to scroll. How let me say this and back up here- I completely concur with you that our salvation is by faith ALONE. I wanted to eliminate at least one strawman before I continue. The issue at hand is not the nature our salvation but rather our conduct in this salvation. Now which of these position do you believe is supported by scripture? That with our liberty we may do whatever we'd like or that liberty in christ is freedom sin? In other words what should our daily intent as Christians be?

Hi Ron. I have said many times, on many threads, we do not kill, steal, etc..

But that is also an elemental truth in the law grace debate. The just shall live by the principle of faith, not law. That is the transcendent truth, that trumps pertinent indicatives, or imminent verses, given at certain times, in certain places, where Paul said, don't do this, or that, to lets say, the carnal Corinthians etc.

He taught us to reckon oursleves dead to sin, by being united with the sinless resurrected Christ, lifted out of Adam, with Him. This does not come by rule keeping.

 

[Frogster]

Your contention that Paul didn't regard the mosaic law as upholding faith is absurd after all David and the prophets were well familiar with the law as you know and where do you think the prophets got the things they said? Where did Jesus the greatest prophet get some the things he said? Again it's true we can not pursue a righteousness in the law of our selves because time and time again we fail the same was for the Jews; the law was meant to point us to Christ not to give us righteousness but this doesn't nullify the fact that a holy God demands holiness or do you believe God changes? This goofy unconditional grace(read God's favor) will condemn many. We are not saved by works but works through faith will justify you- why do you think it says that the doer of the law shall be justified and not just the hearer?

If you're not going to realize that Rom 2:13, was rhetorical, aganst the Jews, who heard the law in the Synagogues all the time, the hearers, not the doers, then you will also have to think Paul totally contradicted himself, where the culmination of 3 chapters of law, in all it's forms took place, as a condemning agent, finally came to a conclusion.

3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

 

[CalmRon]

Hi Ron. I have said many times, on many threads, we do not kill, steal, etc..

But that is also an elemental truth in the law grace debate. The just shall live by the principle of faith, not law. That is the transcendent truth, that trumps pertinent indicatives, or imminent verses, given at certain times, in certain places, where Paul said, don't do this, or that, to lets say, the carnal Corinthians etc.

He taught us to reckon oursleves dead to sin, by being united with the sinless resurrected Christ, lifted out of Adam, with Him. This does not come by rule keeping.

Thank you for killing the strawman for me. I see it all the threads and I am sick of the cyclical arguments that seem revolve around this fine point. Another words in practice are not anti nomian.

 

[CalmRon]

If you're not going to realize that Rom 2:13, was rhetorical, aganst the Jews, who heard the law in the Synagogues all the time, the hearers, not the doers, then you will also have to think Paul totally contradicted himself, where the culmination of 3 chapters of law, in all it's forms took place, as a condemning agent, finally came to a conclusion.

3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

So then we concur that righteousness is not ourselves. However by walking in the spirit is how we have the power to uphold the law. Righteous comes by faith as we all should emphatically state. For the law is spiritual and the natural man is carnal minded and can not please but if we walk in the spirit we can through a day by day process put to death the natural man; then can we live a life in the righteousness that god requires of his saints. Agreed?

We are then destined to be conformed to the the image God in Christ Jesus if we continue in this saving faith until the end.

 

[Frogster]

Thank you for killing the strawman for me. I see it all the threads and I am sick of the cyclical arguments that seem revolve around this fine point. Another words in practice are not anti nomian.

Amen, I understand, to me the abolishment of law, did not mean to sin, it meant the age of the Spirit came. Gal 3:13, ransomed, so that the Spirit would come, as per 14.

Out of Adam, now in the Spirit, the new dominion.

 

[Frogster]

So then we concur that righteousness is not ourselves. However by walking in the spirit is how we have the power to uphold the law. Righteous comes by faith as we all should emphatically state. For the law is spiritual and the natural man is carnal minded and can not please but if we walk in the spirit we can through a day by day process put to death the natural man; then can we live a life in the righteousness that god requires of his saints. Agreed?

We are then destined to be conformed to the the image God in Christ Jesus if we continue in this saving faith until the end.

Welp..to me, we need to be careful of law fusion, with the Spirit. When we are walking in the Spirit, we won't be under law.

Paul antagonized the Spirit to flesh, as well as law.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law

I think it is amazing how Paul pointed the Galatians back to the Spirit, while he really warded off law. He trusted the Spirit for them. Live, walk, wait, fruit, etc.