Legalism Is Baffling

[trophy33]

It is written, "Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them." (Deut. 27:26)

I agree that this is the teaching of the Mosaic Law. We cannot select just few commandments we like, its a whole that must be kept fully. Removing or adding to it is strictly forbidden by Deuteronomy.

....But for those who believe in Jesus, He took OUR curses upon HIS shoulders; for those who do NOT believe in him, their curses are still on themselves (John 3:18). Those who try to keep the law without Jesus is under a curse.

Christians are not given the Mosaic law to keep. It was given till Christ. People who teach that the Mosaic Law is still in place, are against the gospel that Christ and the kingdom of God have already come.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ."
Gal 1:6-7

"Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. "
Gal 3:19

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."
Gal 5:1

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Christians are not given the Mosaic law to keep. It was given till Christ. People who teach that the Mosaic Law is still in place, are against the gospel that Christ and the kingdom of God have already come.

No, it hasn't. Only will the kingdom come when Christ returns. "Until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." The law is here to stay, that's what you quoted in your own post.

 

[trophy33]

No, it hasn't. Only will the kingdom come when Christ returns. "Until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." The law is here to stay, that's what you quoted in your own post.

"Heavens and earth" is an idiom, its not about literal, physical planet and universe.

That the kingdom of God has already come is quite clear:

"In the time of those kings [The Roman Empire being the last one], the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever."
Da 2:44

"Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people."
Mt 4:23

"Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness."
Mt 9:35

"But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."
Mt 12:28

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
Mt 24:14

"Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
Mk 1:14

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."
Lk 9:27

"But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you."
Lk 11:10

"But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."
Acts 8:12

"They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus."
Acts 28:32

That the kingdom of God has come is basically the gospel and the reason why Paul could teach Christians to be free of the Mosaic Law.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

"Heavens and earth" is an idiom, its not about literal, physical planet and universe.

No it's not an idiom, it's referring to literal universe, which will be renewed.

"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. " (Rev. 21:1)

That the kingdom of God has already come is quite clear:

You're distorting the Scripture. All of those verses are about evangelization, in other words, PREACHING and PROCLAIMING of the kingdom, none of them says the kingdom has "already" come. This "dominion theology" is a heresy that teaches man made utopia and denies the second coming.

 

[trophy33]

No it's not an idiom, it's referring to literal universe, which will be renewed.

"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. " (Rev. 21:1)

No, its an idiom and a symbolic language.

You're distorting the Scripture. All of those verses are about evangelization, in other words, PREACHING and PROCLAIMING of the kingdom, none of them says the kingdom has "already" come. This is a heresy that denies the second coming.

Nonsense. Some of these verses literally say "it has already come", for example Lk 11:10. The imminent coming of the kingdom is literally the gospel Jesus was teaching everywhere He went and its fulfillment is the basis of Christianity.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No, its an idiom and a symbolic language.

Then why do you still quote it and believe in it if it's just an idiom? And why did heaven and earth literally pass away in Rev. 21:1?

Nonsense. Some of these verses literally say "it has already come", for example Lk 11:10.

In Lk. 11:10 the kingdom has come upon the disciples, not the whole wide world. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matt. 24:14)

 

[OldAbramBrown]

You are vague and I do not know what you want to say ...

Only the first question makes sense to me - No, I do not have children, nor my friends.

The meaning of meaning is baffling to you. Does legalism have an existential impact on adults?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The meaning of meaning is baffling to you. Does legalism have an existential impact on adults?

The way I see it, it's basically turning a blessing into a curse, the opposite of what God does.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

That the kingdom of God has already come is quite clear:

... That the kingdom of God has come is basically the gospel and the reason why Paul could teach Christians to be free of the Mosaic Law.

Indeed, more specifically, to be free of parts of its literal application while fulfilling all its non-literal application. Even the "legalistic" clauses say things like "collect en ough for him who has none".

The gifts which ordinary believers - including the young - can exchange with us, and the fruits ensuing, show that the Kingdom is already among us.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Indeed, more specifically, to be free of parts of its literal application while fulfilling all its non-literal application. Even the "legalistic" clauses say things like "collect en ough for him who has none".

The gifts which ordinary believers - including the young - can exchange with us, and the fruits ensuing, show that the Kingdom is already among us.

I thought God's kingdom is supposed to fill the whole earth, not just your own little community or your own state of mind.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

The way I see it, it's basically turning a blessing into a curse, the opposite of what God does.

This is why I keep saying the gifts and their fruits when exchanged, are the blessing in fulfilling the meanings of the law in its entirety which Jesus proclaimed.

 

[trophy33]

The meaning of meaning is baffling to you. Does legalism have an existential impact on adults?

Define existential impact. These vague terms are hard to discuss.

 

[trophy33]

Then why do you still quote it and believe in it if it's just an idiom? And why did heaven and earth literally pass away in Rev. 21:1?

Idioms have meanings. Thats why they are said, read and referred to. Revelation is not a literal book.

In Lk. 11:10 the kingdom has come upon the disciples, not the whole wide world. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matt. 24:14)

The kingdom of God is not a place, it does not have dimensions like wideness. It is not "here" or "there". Since the moment it has come, everybody can enter it. Thats why the preaching and evangelization.

"The whole world", when referred to a location, in the New Testament frequently means "nations surrounding Israel in the Roman Empire". It has happened during the lifetime of Paul:

"The gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world"
Col 1:6

Also, you misread the verse, it says "and then the end will come", not "and then the kingdom will come".

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Idioms have meanings. Thats why they are said, read and referred to. Revelation is not a literal book.

The bible is not full of idioms or symbols, but references. Here's one simple example - So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”But He was speaking of the temple of His body. (Jn. 2:18-21) The temple is both the literal second temple of Jerusalem and the body temple of Jesus. The difference is, the temple to be burned to the ground was the literal temple, the temple to be rebuilt in three days was the body temple, which was a REFERENCE. Same as Revelation, all the "symbols" can be traced back to the OT prophecy books.

The kingdom of God is not a place, it does not have dimensions like wideness. It is not "here" or "there". Since the moment it has come, everybody can enter it. Thats why the preaching and evangelization.

"The whole world", when referred to a location, in the New Testament frequently means "nations surrounding Israel in the Roman Empire". It has happened during the lifetime of Paul:

"The gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world"
Col 1:6

Also, you misread the verse, it says "and then the end will come", not "and then the kingdom will come".

Then we have to agree to disagree, I'm a staunch pre millennialist, always has been and always will be. Last time I checked, Satan was the prince of the air, and he still is until he was captured and bound when the king of kings returns to earth.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (Eph. 2:1-3)

 

[trophy33]

The bible is not full of idioms or symbols, but references.

Not sure about "full", but there are quite a few idioms in the Bible. And the book of Revelation is symbolic inherently by its genre, from the beginning to end.

Then we have to agree to disagree, I'm a staunch pre millennialist, always has been and always will be.

I do not care too much about labels of theological systems. Bible is not systematic.

The kingdom of God has come, its said on so many places, in so many ways and so clearly, explicitly that, its not debatable. That it does not work in your theological system, is not important.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I do not care too much about labels of theological systems. Bible is not systematic.

The kingdom of God has come, its said on so many places, in so many ways and so clearly, explicitly that, its not debatable. That it does not work in your theological system, is not important.

This world is sinful and broken, call that the kingdom you want, I'm not gonna deceive myself. If the kingdom had already come, Jesus wouldn't have taught us to pray for his kingdom to come and his will be done.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

This world is sinful and broken, call that the kingdom you want, I'm not gonna deceive myself. If the kingdom had already come, Jesus wouldn't have taught us to pray for his kingdom to come and his will be done.

- Aha but there is no Holy Spirit in your system, Whom Jesus came and ascended specifically to give personally
- God is not a materialist
- God is not a dispensationist
- God is not a dominionist
- try "Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point" by Huw Price pubd 1996 on Bell, Einstein, causation, entropy and such
- Kingdom is and always was bigger than Millenium

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Define existential impact. These vague terms are hard to discuss.

What does it do for people's personalities and attitudes?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

- Aha but there is no Holy Spirit in your system, Whom Jesus came and ascended specifically to give personally
- God is not a materialist
- God is not a dispensationist
- God is not a dominionist
- try "Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point" by Huw Price pubd 1996 on Bell, Einstein, causation, entropy and such
- Kingdom is and always was bigger than Millenium

Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit in His system? Yet he said this: "my kingdom is NOT of this world," John 18:36. Anyone with the Holy Spirit in them would give the same statement.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The law guides us but it's not the road that drives us. We are not under the Law as the method of salvation, but we delight to see the Law in the hand of Christ and desire to obey the Lord in all things. The Law of God must be perpetual. There is no abrogation of it, nor amendment of it.

We are not under law, but under grace. The Lord Himself is our Shepherd. He wrote into our hearts and minds everything He wanted us to be. From our new hearts, we love God, we love our neighbors, we abhore sin, we love righteousness. Before we make any moves in our lives, He quides us, not by pointing us to His laws, but by His Spirit making a direct appeal to our spirits. When we walk with Him where He leads, then we fulfil all the righteous requirements of the law.

We are not under law, but under grace. When we fail to walk follow Him where He leads, He corrects us. He does't do it by pointing us to the law and demanding we obey it. He does it through a direct appeal from His Spirit to ours, not threatening eternal damnation, but giving us grief until we change our minds. We don't need to worry about waking up one day a million miles away from God, because He will never leave us in sin without correction. He is a good Father. If anyone does not experience His correction, he is not His because He corrects everyone He loves (Hebrews 12:5-12).

We are not under law, but under grace. The law is good if it is used lawfully. It is not made for a righteous person, but for the urighteous to lead them to Christ. But after Christ comes, the law is not needed. We have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in our hearts. We are complete in Him. We do not live under the prospect that He will ever leave us or forsake us. We are not under law, but under grace.