Legalism Is Baffling

[B Griffin]

Infant baptism is also held to be valid by many Sola Fide adherents. Baptism is called the "sacrament of faith". and it's believed that the faith of the family and community stand in for the infant until they reach the age of reason when they can begin to choose on their own. This reflects the corporate aspect of salvation, where God uses us in others lives. Acts 16:31 is related to this. Catholicism teaches that faith is the beginning of salvation, the root and foundation of justification. It places us back into union with God, which Adam effectively rejected.

The idea that a person can overcome sin and become one with God without puting his trust in Christ is completely antithetical to God's plan for the salvation of mankind:

21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Co 1:21–24)​

God decided on His own, with no counsel from man, that He would save "those who believe". Only "those who believe" are saved. A person can't "believe" on behalf of a family member or his friends. An institution can't "believe" on behalf of people. It "pleased God" to make salvation through faith in the crucified Christ available only to "those who believe".

 

[B Griffin]

I politely disagree my friend because the statement “you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace” says everything about the current state in regards to salvation.

No problem. "Having begun in the Spirit" is obviously a reference to salvation. "are you now being made perfect by the flesh" is obviously a referece to legalistic Christian living.

I don't see Galatians 5:4 the same way you do. It looks bad for them for sure, as it did for Peter, and as it does for legalistic people today. And it makes it look like they may never have been saved in the first place. But concluding that Gal 5:4 means that turning to legalism causes one to lose his salvation is inconsistent with how Paul addressed the Galatian, Roman, Corinthian, and Colossian churches who had issues with Legalism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No problem. "Having begun in the Spirit" is obviously a reference to salvation. "are you now being made perfect by the flesh" is obviously a referece to legalistic Christian living.

I don't see Galatians 5:4 the same way you do. It looks bad for them for sure, as it did for Peter, and as it does for legalistic people today. And it makes it look like they may never have been saved in the first place. But concluding that Gal 5:4 means that turning to legalism causes one to lose his salvation is inconsistent with how Paul addressed the Galatian, Roman, Corinthian, and Colossian churches who had issues with Legalism.

Bless you friend but he did say they had turned away from God in his opening statements to them.

“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I politely disagree my friend because the statement “you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace” says everything about the current state in regards to salvation.

It refers not only to their end state but also the interim effects of their works according to what the superapostles / interlopers wanted for them.

If they teach others as they were being taught, they'll incur guilt. I've been on the receiving end of this and spent years condoning it and the ills it cloaked. Last 21 verses Prov - choice rations in the firm; parables - feed each other on time, don't beat.

I think this gives the proper context for Galatians:

This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:2–4)​

The concept "already saved" sits in a wider context in my mind than perhaps both yours'? A thing which is growing on me is the unfashionable "assurance" which is both more realistic and bigger.

Interlopers and superapostles (whose Holy Spirit heresy gives them away) operate by undermining our assurance to induce us to do their will.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

NT authors do not contradict the OT, they interpret the OT in the light of the kingdom of God. They may contradict traditional Jewish interpretations, literal interpretations, SDA interpretations etc, but thats not important.

Yes!

 

[OldAbramBrown]

Perhaps, that is a possibility but I don’t see any direct evidence of that being their motivation mentioned in the epistle.

The interlopers were of same tendency as those who deceived Peter and Barnabas for a short while. (Those two and Paul had been doing some pretty unrespectable things.) They are also the theme of II Cor.

They were probably hardliners who had jockeyed for the envoy assignment (perhaps arguing that their influence would ensure safer arrival) in the same way as Paul had been more zealous in persecuting than anybody.

I've sussed out the modus operandi of people who were doing this ("sent by a big religious leader") where I lived. Your discussion will become particularly vivid when you realise you too have seen the effects.

Paul isn't consigning the Galatian church to perdition, he is writing because of his high hopes for and gratitude to them. He wants them to discern for themselves what was and wasn't in vain.

Galatia was nearer to Palestine than other church regions and probably its church was more strongly ethnically Hebrew, with a diaspora since late Assyrian and Mede times.

 

[B Griffin]

Bless you friend but he did say they had turned away from God in his opening statements to them.

“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If legalistic Christians lose their salvation, then virtually every church in NT times was filled with lost people.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The interlopers were of same tendency as those who deceived Peter and Barnabas for a short while. (Those two and Paul had been doing some pretty unrespectable things.) They are also the theme of II Cor.

I don’t see any indication that they were deceived but that they were simply afraid of being rebuked by the Judaizers. They were being hypocrites by refraining from having fellowship with the Gentiles while the Jews were present from fear of rebuke and persecution.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If legalistic Christians lose their salvation, then virtually every church in NT times was filled with lost people.

That depends on how you define “legalistic” my friend. If you define it as teaching obedience to God I would disagree. If you define it as teaching that obedience to God is how we receive justification, how we are made right with God, then I would agree.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul isn't consigning the Galatian church to perdition, he is writing because of his high hopes for and gratitude to them. He wants them to discern for themselves what was and wasn't in vain.

He’s correcting them so that they will repent and turn away from seeking justification thru obedience to the law.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I already responded to Lords Prayer. The coming of the kingdom of God was a process. Imagine it as a train with several train wagons. Its front was John the Baptist, Jesus' public service and at the end the preaching of the Gospel to nations and the destruction of Israel.

You reacted to my post (#161), in which I said that the Mosaic Law is not for us, who are in the kingdom of God. You started to argue, so its you who is derailing this thread with nonsense.

You are right about the process, but wrong about the end. The end is when the gospel is preached in all nations and they bear testimony to Jesus, Matt. 24:14.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

If legalistic Christians lose their salvation, then virtually every church in NT times was filled with lost people.

Salvation is not your job, your wife, your kid, your parents, your car, your house, your healthcare, your bank account, your fame, your beauty, your strength, or any worldly possession. Salvation is the precious blood of Christ shed for you and me on the cross.

To interpret the bible with the bible itself, since Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt, does any Israelite return to Egypt? They could be longing for Egypt (Num. 11:5), they could be rebellious to God (Num. 16), they could even be cursed with all the plagues in Egypt (Deut. 28:60), but does any of them lose their Exodus and get deported to Egypt? As long as they were saved by God through Moses, so are we saved by God through Christ.

 

[trophy33]

You are right about the process, but wrong about the end. The end is when the gospel is preached in all nations and they bear testimony to Jesus, Matt. 24:14.

I already responded to this, too.

Its in the context of the nations around Israel:

your faith is being reported all over the world
R 1:8

the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world
Col 1:6

If it was supposed to be a process 2,000+ years long, they would not say "It is the last hour" (1J 2:18) or "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Pt 4:7).

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:5 (certainly not literal)


Also, consider that this would be impossible for the 11 apostles to do, if the whole planet was meant:
He said to them [the Eleven], “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."
Mk 16:15

Remember Daniel - the 4th empire, the Roman Empire (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) was the last one and then the kingdom of God was established. The kingdom had to come during the 4th empire, which is now gone.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I already responded to this, too.

Its in the context of the nations around Israel:

your faith is being reported all over the world
R 1:8

the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world
Col 1:6

If it was supposed to be a process 2,000+ years long, they would not say "It is the last hour" (1J 2:18) or "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Pt 4:7).

Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:5 (certainly not literal)


Also, consider that this would be impossible for the 11 apostles to do, if the whole planet was meant:
He said to them [the Eleven], “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."
Mk 16:15

Remember Daniel - the 4th empire, the Roman Empire (Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome) was the last one and then the kingdom of God was established. The kingdom had to come during the 4th empire, which is now gone.

Friend, how about we honor the OP's topic instead of this aimless kingdom debate? Don't you know that God cares more about the relationship with him than the right theology of him?

 

[trophy33]

Friend, how about we honor the OP's topic instead of this aimless kingdom debate? Don't you know that God cares more about the relationship with him than the right theology of him?

Well, it has begun when I said that there is no Mosaic Law (and therefore no legalism) for people in the kingdom of God. Returning to legalism and to the Mosaic Law is another gospel, as said in the OP.

So it was important, in a way, for the topic, to react to your placing the kingdom to the future.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Well, it has begun when I said that there is no Mosaic Law (and therefore no legalism) for people in the kingdom of God. Returning to legalism and to the Mosaic Law is another gospel, as said in the OP.

But neither is there lawlessness, grace is not a free pass to sin, see Romans 6.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I don’t see any indication that they were deceived but that they were simply afraid of being rebuked by the Judaizers. They were being hypocrites by refraining from having fellowship with the Gentiles while the Jews were present from fear of rebuke and persecution.

That is in fact exactly my usage of "were = got deceived" (passive voice).

 

[OldAbramBrown]

He’s correcting them so that they will repent and turn away from seeking justification thru obedience to the law.

If you call gaining courage "repenting" (very good angle) yes!

And to the letter of law vs. the spirit of law.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... The kingdom had to come during the 4th empire, which is now gone.

It is still ongoing though as long as we trade the gifts with each other to strengthen each other's integrity, thus only in the same sense as in their time namely not worldly.

 

[trophy33]

But neither is there lawlessness, grace is not a free pass to sin, see Romans 6.

However, what is sin is no more defined by the Mosaic Law. For example, its not a sin to trim my beard or to work the whole week. Or to eat pork. Etc.