Legalism Is Baffling

[trophy33]

This world is sinful and broken, call that the kingdom you want, I'm not gonna deceive myself. If the kingdom had already come, Jesus wouldn't have taught us to pray for his kingdom to come and his will be done.

The New Testament explicitly says it has come, its the point of the gospel, literally. Your disbelief is not about me, but about Christianity.

The coming of the kingdom was a process, starting with the preaching of John the Baptist and ending with the judgement over Israel. In this way Jesus could both say "it has come to you already" and "pray for its coming", to his generation.

Imagine a train arriving into a train station with several wagons - John the Baptist, Jesus' earthly service, His death and resurrection, Pentecost, preaching the gospel to nations in the Roman Empire, the destruction of Israel in 66-70 AD.

 

[trophy33]

What does it do for people's personalities and attitudes?

For example in Galatia it was destroying the work of Paul, they turned to another gospel, into slavery, into flash-based thinking.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The New Testament explicitly says it has come, its the point of the gospel, literally. Your disbelief is not about me, but about Christianity.

The coming of the kingdom was a process, starting with the preaching of John the Baptist and ending with the judgement over Israel. In this way Jesus could both say "it has come to you already" and "pray for its coming", to his generation.

Imagine a train arriving into a train station with several wagons - John the Baptist, Jesus' earthly service, His death and resurrection, Pentecost, preaching the gospel to nations in the Roman Empire, the destruction of Israel in 66-70 AD.

Actually I understand what you're saying, we as God's people are in capacity of God's embassadors, and an embassy is internationally recognized as an extension of the country it represents. But I'm not talking about the church, I'm talking about the final kingdom prophesied in the OT, that kingdom hasn't come yet. Roman Empire wasn't destroyed in 66-70AD, Jerusalem was. I have belief in the Scriptures, I have disbelief in your misinterpretation.

“And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [n]break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”(Dan. 2:44-45)

 

[trophy33]

I have belief in the Scriptures, I have disbelief in your misinterpretation.

What misinterpretation exactly? What did I say differently from Jesus or apostles?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What misinterpretation exactly? What did I say differently from Jesus or apostles?

It's different from Dan. 2:44-45, and other kingdom prophecies such as Is. 65:17-25.

 

[trophy33]

It's different from Dan. 2:44-45, and other kingdom prophecies such as Is. 65:17-25.

We are Christians. That means we interpret OT prophecies through the words of Christ and apostles.

Jesus interprets Daniel. Not Daniel Jesus. We are not Danielians.

And even if we were Danielians, we would have a serious problem - the OT is not preserved well, I have two different Greek versions of Daniel just in my printed Septuagint. Translation is also difficult and allows for unending possibilities of interpretation. Not a solid ground to judge the NT teachings.

What did I say differently from Jesus and apostles? This is the important question.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

We are Christians. That means we interpret OT prophecies through the words of Christ and apostles.

Jesus interprets Daniel. Not Daniel Jesus. We are not Danielians.

And even if we were Danielians, we would have a serious problem - the OT is not preserved well, I have two different Greek versions of Daniel just in my printed Septuagint. Translation is also difficult and allows for unending possibilities of interpretation. Not a solid ground to judge the NT teachings.

What did I say differently from Jesus and apostles? This is the important question.

Jesus came to fulfill the laws AND prophets -"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. " (Matt. 5:17-18) We interpret the words of Christ and apostles through OT prophecies, not the other way around.

 

[trophy33]

We interpret the words of Christ and apostles through OT prophecies, not the other way around.

No, its exactly the opposite. Jesus and apostles are the authority on the OT. All other interpretations of the OT are speculative and not authoritative.

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.
Lk 24:27
- it needed to by explained by Jesus, i.e. its not something every individual can do by himself

Because we do not even know for certain what was in the OT (or what was the OT), today, your proposition is also impossible.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I’m talking the final, complete kingdom where Christ reigns with an iron rod, as the Scripture says. Do not conflate his kingdom with his church.

I've not done so. I'm pointing out what most christian leaders deny, namely the intended exchange of spiritual gifts in this life (which Jesus and the apostles, and the prophets, happened to try to teach about). I'm addressing the thread topic.

Please declare: are you in favour of legalism and why? How have you seen it benefit the personality and attitudes of those around you? What is your reaction to II Cor? Do you understand what agency and contingency are?

In your considered opinion does the Holy Spirit reinforce or dissolve legalism? Why are you a materialist? Do prayers favour legalism? You didn't say what you thought about the contributions of BNR32FAN and fhansen, who are addressing the thread.

Unless you can argue against Scripture please pass over the thread as one you don't happen to be able to contribute to, there are many such for us all.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No, its exactly the opposite. Jesus and apostles are the authority on the OT. All other interpretations of the OT are speculative and not authoritative.

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.
Lk 24:27
- it needed to by explained by Jesus, i.e. its not something every individual can do by himself

Because we do not even know for certain what was in the OT (or what was the OT), today, your proposition is also impossible.

You're making a big mistake by dismissing the OT root of the NT.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I've not done so. I'm pointing out what most christian leaders deny, namely the intended exchange of spiritual gifts in this life (which Jesus and the apostles, and the prophets, happened to try to teach about). I'm addressing the thread topic.

Please declare: are you in favour of legalism and why? How have you seen it benefit the personality and attitudes of those around you? What is your reaction to II Cor? Do you understand what agency and contingency are?

In your considered opinion does the Holy Spirit reinforce or dissolve legalism? Why are you a materialist? Do prayers favour legalism? You didn't say what you thought about the contributions of BNR32FAN and fhansen, who are addressing the thread.

Unless you can argue against Scripture please pass over the thread as one you don't happen to be able to contribute to, there are many such for us all.

I've never been in favor of legalism, and I've explained a simple fact - faith and work are two sides of the same coin, so are discipline and freedom, which are essentially law and grace.

 

[trophy33]

You're making a big mistake by dismissing the OT root of the NT.

Not sure what that means. Anyway:

1. Jesus taught the kingdom of God both had come and was very near (at hand).
2. Apostles taught that to people.

Its not misinterpretation, its the New Testament in a nutshell.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Not sure what that means. Anyway:

1. Jesus taught the kingdom of God both had come and was very near (at hand).
2. Apostles taught that to people.

Its not misinterpretation, its the New Testament in a nutshell.

"My kingdom is not of this world", John 18:36.

 

[trophy33]

"My kingdom is not of this world", John 18:36.

Exactly, its spiritual.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Exactly, its spiritual.

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." Show me how exactly kingdom prophecies in Dan. 2:44-45, Is. 65:17-25 and others are fulfilled in 70AD. Don't tell me it's "spiritual". Spiritualization is heresy.

 

[trophy33]

"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." Show me how exactly kingdom prophecies in Dan. 2:44-45, Is. 65:17-25 and others are fulfilled in 70AD. Don't tell me it's "spiritual". Spiritualization is heresy.

Its not my job to explain to you exactly OT prophecies and shadows. Again, I do not even know which text of those prophets is reliable (and you still ignore it). And its not needed for me, so its an unnecessary effort.

The kingdom of God is spiritual, I thought you know this basic fact:

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit
R 14:17

Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
Lk 17:21

Even your own quote says that - "its not of this world".

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Its not my job to explain to you exactly OT prophecies and shadows. Again, I do not even know which text of those prophets is reliable (and you still ignore it). And its not needed for me, so its an unnecessary effort.

The kingdom of God is spiritual, I thought you know this basic fact:

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit
R 14:17

Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
Lk 17:21

Even your own quote says that - "its not of this world".

Then do yourself a favor, update the Lord’s Prayer to the present perfect tense next time you recite it: your kingdom HAS come, your will IS done. If that sounds wrong to you, then stop derailing this thread with this nonsense and let’s go back to the OP’s topic.

 

[trophy33]

Then do yourself a favor, update the Lord’s Prayer to the present perfect tense next time you recite it: your kingdom HAS come, your will IS done. If that sounds wrong to you, then stop derailing this thread with this nonsense and let’s go back to the OP’s topic.

I already responded to Lords Prayer. The coming of the kingdom of God was a process. Imagine it as a train with several train wagons. Its front was John the Baptist, Jesus' public service and at the end the preaching of the Gospel to nations and the destruction of Israel.

You reacted to my post (#161), in which I said that the Mosaic Law is not for us, who are in the kingdom of God. You started to argue, so its you who is derailing this thread with nonsense.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I’m not sure what your point is my friend

I was just saying that Paul's message to the Galatians about the ills of legalism was not strictly about obtaining salvation. It was primarily a message to people who were saved already and were seeking continued rightness with God through obedience to the law.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I was just saying that Paul's message to the Galatians about the ills of legalism was not strictly about obtaining salvation. It was primarily a message to people who were saved already and were seeking continued rightness with God through obedience to the law.

I politely disagree my friend because the statement “you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace” says everything about the current state in regards to salvation.