Legalism Is Baffling

fhansen · Sep 13, 2023

B Griffin said:
We are not under law, but under grace. The Lord Himself is our Shepherd. He wrote into our hearts and minds everything He wanted us to be. From our new hearts, we love God, we love our neighbors, we abhore sin, we love righteousness. Before we make any moves in our lives, He quides us, not by pointing us to His laws, but by His Spirit making a direct appeal to our spirits. When we walk with Him where He leads, then we fulfil all the righteous requirements of the law.

We are not under law, but under grace. When we fail to walk follow Him where He leads, He corrects us. He does't do it by pointing us to the law and demanding we obey it. He does it through a direct appeal from His Spirit to ours, not threatening eternal damnation, but giving us grief until we change our minds. We don't need to worry about waking up one day a million miles away from God, because He will never leave us in sin without correction. He is a good Father. If anyone does not experience His correction, he is not His because He corrects everyone He loves (Hebrews 12:5-12).

We are not under law, but under grace. The law is good if it is used lawfully. It is not made for a righteous person, but for the urighteous to lead them to Christ. But after Christ comes, the law is not needed. We have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in our hearts. We are complete in Him. We do not live under the prospect that He will ever leave us or forsake us. We are not under law, but under grace.

We can still leave Him; He does not force His grace upon us but respects our freedom to choose, the gift of freedom that He gave man to begin with in order for him to work out his salvation, to choose good over evil, life over death, to choose love, to put it another way, to choose Him to put it best. To the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength we’ve attained the very purpose we were created for.

BNR32FAN · Sep 13, 2023

B Griffin said:
Paul fills Galatians with statements of amazement concerning the Galatian Christians who had turned away from grace and had adopted a legalistic approach to Christian living.

Chapter 1: "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ." (Ga 1:6–7)

Chapter 2: "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." (Ga 2:21)

Chapter 3: "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?" (Ga 3:1)

Chapter 4: "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" (Ga 4:21)

Chapter 5: "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Ga 5:4)

And in chapter 6, he makes this telling statement: "For not even those who are circumcised keep the law". (Ga 6:13)

It is truly baffling when Christians set aside the grace of God and place themselves under the law.

There’s a difference between trying to attain justification thru obedience to the law and simply obeying God’s commandments out of love and devotion to Him. In the epistle to the Galatians they were specifically trying to attain salvation thru obedience to the law.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Sep 13, 2023

fhansen said:
But that's just avoiding the question. If there's a new man to put on that implies a choice. John means what he says; he's not speaking of some ethereal second person, but about what we actually end up doing. The bible lists many of the kinds of sins that we are to avoid and enjoins us not to go there, with eternal life at stake, so the possibility must exist and the reality of believers participating in such sins has been played out down through the centuries-and the church has had to deal with it.

Either way, yes, we must focus on ourselves to see if we pass the test-because sin can separate us from God all over again. "Sin that leads to death" means that we've separated ourselves from Him all over again.. He's not asking for perfect sinlessness in this life although that's certainly the ideal at the end of the day (no one was created to be a sinner after all). He's asking that we get on and remain on that path, towards the perfection we were created for, with Him.

The problem, of curse, is that we all sin. And the only answer for all sin, both big and small, is "redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace". (Eph 1:7) "Little" sins don't get a pass, and "big" sins don't get special tratment. Forgiveness of all sins is by Christ's sacrifice and the application of God's grace. It is never earned.

I do not believe salvation is contingent on understanding Scripture's flesh/spirit model of man, part of which includes the "true righteousness and holiness" of the new man (Eph 4:24; 1 John 3:9, 5:18; 2 Cor 5:21; 1 Peter 1:23). But understanding it sure helps put other spiritual concepts in the proper context.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Sep 13, 2023

fhansen said:
The churches originally taught no such thing as absolute assurance of salvation. That pretty much came along with the doctrine of Sola
Fide, which introduced the idea that a person need not be righteous in fact -but only declared to be righteous- in order to enter heaven.

I guess we see here the two extremes. One group believes a person's faith is all that is needed to enter eternal life. The other group believes a person does not not need any faith at all to enter eternal life (i.e., infant baptism).

NewLifeInChristJesus · Sep 13, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
There’s a difference between trying to attain justification thru obedience to the law and simply obeying God’s commandments out of love and devotion to Him. In the epistle to the Galatians they were specifically trying to attain salvation thru obedience to the law.

I think this gives the proper context for Galatians:

This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:2–4)

Soyeong · Sep 13, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
There’s a difference between trying to attain justification thru obedience to the law and simply obeying God’s commandments out of love and devotion to Him. In the epistle to the Galatians they were specifically trying to attain salvation thru obedience to the law.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while it is not the case that we are required to have obeyed God's law first in order to earn our salvation as the result, having the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it.

BNR32FAN · Sep 13, 2023

B Griffin said:
I think this gives the proper context for Galatians:

This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? (Ga 3:2–4)

I’m not sure what your point is my friend

BNR32FAN · Sep 13, 2023

Soyeong said:
Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while it is not the case that we are required to have obeyed God's law first in order to earn our salvation as the result, having the experience of living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it.

I think there’s more to it than simply obedience itself. I believe it is the heart’s intention that is more important. The Pharisees were obedient to the law but they lacked the most important qualities which were love & compassion. Granted having love & compassion were commandments of God but what appears to separate the righteous from the wicked is a loving attitude and devotion to God, not necessarily obedience because we have all failed in that aspect. What seems to separate the condemned from the saved is love and devotion to God since both have failed in obedience yet only those who love God are actually saved.

Soyeong · Sep 13, 2023

myst33 said:
Thats the job of inspired apostles and they already wrote down the basics - the law was given to Israel and till Christ.

Jesus did not come with the Gospel message to stop repenting because the law has ended, but just the opposite, and in fact he specifically said that he came not to abolish the law and warned against relaxing the least part of it or teaching others to do the same (Matthew 5:17-19). In Romans 3:31, Paul confirmed that our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, yet you interpret Paul as contradicting himself. Furthermore, you interpret Galatians 3:23-25 in a way that is contrary to Galatians 3:16-19 and Galatians 3:26-29.

myst33 said:
Its not my job to interpret all OT verses you come with. But if your interpretations are against the teachings of the New Testament, we can conclude they are not Christian.

I believe that the whole Bible is true, so I do not interpret the OT as speaking against the teachings of the NT, just against your interpretation of the NT. Moreover, I don't interpret the NT as contradicting the NT and I quoted a number of verses from the NT that you dismissed because they were contrary to your interpretation of Galatians 3:23-25 and Romans 7:6, and if you do that without explaining how you think that the verses I cited should be interpreted, then you are saying that those verses contradict each other without giving any reason for why we should believe the verses that you quoted. instead of the verses that I quoted. I have explained why you think your interpretation of Galatians 3:23-25 and Romans 7:6 is incorrect, which you ignored. In addition, the NT authors should not be interpreted as contradicting what they considered to be Scripture or as saying things that would have been rejected if they had been said to the Bereans.

OldAbramBrown · Sep 13, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
... Yet he said this: "my kingdom is NOT of this world," John 18:36 ...

He said it "is" amongst us. We are in but not "of" the world. It's our duty to keep praying that we can cultivate the gifts and integrity of our peers, which is what the kingdom is.

OldAbramBrown · Sep 13, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
I’m not sure what your point is my friend

They had been trying to curry favour with the superapostles who had suffered less battering than Paul.

OldAbramBrown · Sep 13, 2023

OldAbramBrown said:
He ... is.

in = location
of = of the nature of
isn't from = doesn't derive its nature from

The verse says that worldly kingdoms, such as churches run by high handed bosses who veto the gifts, are the site of argy bargying and the currying of favour with those more slick looking (those who would rather be comfortable, than ask for God's help in providentially putting themselves out for others), just the same as Galatians and II Cor say.

BNR32FAN · Sep 13, 2023

OldAbramBrown said:
They had been trying to curry favour with the superapostles who had suffered less battering than Paul.

Perhaps, that is a possibility but I don’t see any direct evidence of that being their motivation mentioned in the epistle.

Soyeong · Sep 13, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
I think there’s more to it than simply obedience itself. I believe it is the heart’s intention that is more important. The Pharisees were obedient to the law but they lacked the most important qualities which were love & compassion. Granted having love & compassion were commandments of God but what appears to separate the righteous from the wicked is a loving attitude and devotion to God, not necessarily obedience because we have all failed in that aspect. What seems to separate the condemned from the saved is love and devotion to God since both have failed in obedience yet only those who love God are actually saved.

In Exodus 20:6, it instructs to love God and keep His commandments, so obedience to God has always been a matter of the heart. God is holy, righteous, good, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth and God's law was given as a gift to teach us how to express, know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about these aspects of God's nature. However, someone can go through the motions of the law while neglecting the weightier matters of the law that it was given as a gift with the goal of teaching us how to act in accordance with, such as in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. So I agree that it is not just about going through the motion of obeying God's law, but about obeying it in the spirit that it was commanded.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 13, 2023

OldAbramBrown said:
He said it "is" amongst us. We are in but not "of" the world. It's our duty to keep praying that we can cultivate the gifts and integrity of our peers, which is what the kingdom is.

I’m talking the final, complete kingdom where Christ reigns with an iron rod, as the Scripture says. Do not conflate his kingdom with his church.

fhansen · Sep 13, 2023

B Griffin said:
I guess we see here the two extremes. One group believes a person's faith is all that is needed to enter eternal life. The other group believes a person does not not need any faith at all to enter eternal life (i.e., infant baptism).

Infant baptism is also held to be valid by many Sola Fide adherents. Baptism is called the "sacrament of faith". and it's believed that the faith of the family and community stand in for the infant until they reach the age of reason when they can begin to choose on their own. This reflects the corporate aspect of salvation, where God uses us in others lives. Acts 16:31 is related to this. Catholicism teaches that faith is the beginning of salvation, the root and foundation of justification. It places us back into union with God, which Adam effectively rejected.

fhansen · Sep 13, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
I think there’s more to it than simply obedience itself. I believe it is the heart’s intention that is more important. The Pharisees were obedient to the law but they lacked the most important qualities which were love & compassion. Granted having love & compassion were commandments of God but what appears to separate the righteous from the wicked is a loving attitude and devotion to God, not necessarily obedience because we have all failed in that aspect. What seems to separate the condemned from the saved is love and devotion to God since both have failed in obedience yet only those who love God are actually saved.

Yes, Basil Caesarea, a 4the century bishop. put it this way:
“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

BNR32FAN · Sep 13, 2023

fhansen said:
Yes, Basil Caesarea, a 4the century bishop. put it this way:
“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

I really enjoy your posts brother we have very similar beliefs. May God bless us both with understanding of His word the way He intended it, and all who seek to understand Him with a sincere heart.

Jonathan_Gale · Sep 13, 2023

Soyeong said:
In Exodus 20:6, it instructs to love God and keep His commandments, so obedience to God has always been a matter of the heart. God is holy, righteous, good, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth and God's law was given as a gift to teach us how to express, know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about these aspects of God's nature. However, someone can go through the motions of the law while neglecting the weightier matters of the law that it was given as a gift with the goal of teaching us how to act in accordance with, such as in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. So I agree that it is not just about going through the motion of obeying God's law, but about obeying it in the spirit that it was commanded.

I agree. Work and faith are two sides of the same coin, as much as Jesus is the manifestation of God in visible form, work is manifestation of faith in visible form. They shouldn't be perceived as a false dichotomy.

trophy33 · Sep 13, 2023

Soyeong said:
Jesus did not come with the Gospel message to stop repenting because the law has ended, but just the opposite

Why not to simply look at why people were supposed to repent? We do not have to speculate, its said explicitly:

In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea and saying, “Repent, because the kingdom of heaven has come near.”
Mt 3:2

From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”
Mt 4:1

The end of the age has come to them - the great judgement over Israel and the kingdom of God - "new heavens and earth", said idiomatically, the fulfillment of everything.

Soyeong said:
I have explained why you think your interpretation of Galatians 3:23-25 and Romans 7:6 is incorrect, which you ignored.

If you want me to respond to something, make it a question. But just one or two questions per post. I do not respond to every idea or commentary of others, it would be too long. What answer regarding your interpretation do you expect? We obviously do not agree about the text.

Soyeong said:
In addition, the NT authors should not be interpreted as contradicting what they considered to be Scripture or as saying things that would have been rejected if they had been said to the Bereans.

NT authors do not contradict the OT, they interpret the OT in the light of the kingdom of God. They may contradict traditional Jewish interpretations, literal interpretations, SDA interpretations etc, but thats not important.

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