Leaving Our Flesh Behind

[Jimmy West]

What He created was perfect; Till Adam's sin and then we lost all glory from then on. Yes, we are born imperfect. We are born of sinful flesh. Even Jesus was born in the likeness of it.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;

Do you contest what it is written in the Bible?

Yes, we all have sinful flesh since birth, but do we have the knowledge of sin? Nope, not until we understood the "laws" around us, not until we understood the nature of this world.

Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin worked in our members through the law to bring forth fruit to death.

So you see, no one is born innocent. No one is innocent.

That's what grace is all about... God's grace is bigger than your sin, you undeserving one. And I thank God that I am undeserving too.

I only contest how you interpret what is written in the Bible.

 

[Jimmy West]

I am going to say this one more time and i don't care who disagrees with it or how you disagree with it. I am going to summerize the message that i have failed to get across to you. The problem with you people is that you are looking at the messenger and not the message. You have a problem with me, so everything I say, weather it is true or not becomes a source of contention for you.

1. You can not truely know God or have a relationship with him unless you are in a spiritual realm.

2. You can not enter a spiritual realm if you are carnal, or in your flesh.

3. God wants all of us to have a spiritual relationship with him.

4. Therefore, God wants all of us to leave our flesh behind and enter the spiritual realm.

That's all.

 

[Father Rick]

Why are you people always adding things that I don't say? Our sinful nature is learned in childhood.

Jimmy...

No one is adding to what you have said... rather we are just thinking it through to it's logical conclusion. The problem is that what you are sharing doesn't make sense once you fully consider it's ramifications.

You said we are looking at the messenger, not the message... this is the exact opposite of what is happening. We are looking at the message-- which is extremely flawed and contrary to the teachings of scripture-- and pointing out how the message you are presenting in contrary to the teachings of the Bible. Each time you respond by saying that your teachings/beliefs/revelations are ALWAYS the ones that are correct and EVERYONE else is always wrong (including Scripture-- since you feel you have risen to a level beyond it).

 

[inrsoul]

I am going to say this one more time and i don't care who disagrees with it or how you disagree with it. I am going to summerize the message that i have failed to get across to you. The problem with you people is that you are looking at the messenger and not the message. You have a problem with me, so everything I say, weather it is true or not becomes a source of contention for you.

1. You can not truely know God or have a relationship with him unless you are in a spiritual realm.

2. You can not enter a spiritual realm if you are carnal, or in your flesh.

3. God wants all of us to have a spiritual relationship with him.

4. Therefore, God wants all of us to leave our flesh behind and enter the spiritual realm.

That's all.

First of all, you have come to this forum. And you put up a post. Are you expecting people to sit back and swallow all you've got to say without a remark, retort, comment or even a gentle rebuttal?

Secondly, I do not know who you are in person, why would any of us "look at the messenger" and determine the quality of the message?

Thirdly, I do not have a problem with you as a person but however I do have a huge problem with the basis of your beliefs which is more often than not unscriptural. You have failed to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that all you shared was biblical truth or not, and by this you expect us to just sit down and take all of it?

Fourthly, we are rightly testing all you say with the Word of God. And from what I can see so far it doesn't looks like it's lining up too well. I'm sorry, this might sound a little judgemental but I believe more than one of us here would agree with this point.

ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED.

 

[KingdomScribe]

What you are saying is that God created us of sinful flesh. God would NOT create anything of sinful flesh! Why would He do that. Did He mess up? Everything God creates is perfect. We become imperfect through our free will. If God hads created us of sinful flesh, He would have discarded us and started over, for God is perfection and that which comes out of the breath of God MUST be perfect.

The potential to sin comes from free will. And free will can also lead us away from sin! It is our choice and that is the way that God wants it to be.

We are all sinners, but we are not born that way. Every baby that is born is innocent and has the potential to be sinful or godly. Mans sinful nature is not heredetary. It is learned!

Your point about the flesh is right and VERY important, but first...

You can SAY we're not "born" sinners -- but it's NOT HARD to get that implication from Paul:

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam

Enough of that...Now, about the "sinful flesh"... (a much more important issue...)

It is VITAL that we understand that the flesh -- in and of itself -- is NOT SINFUL.

That's part of the sin of Gnosticism -- Gnostics deny that Jesus came in the flesh because (they say) the flesh is sinful! And since Jesus never sinned and the flesh is sinful (they say) He never came in the flesh!

BTW -- all you end-timers out there... The ONLY place the antichrist is ever mentioned is in 1 John and HE uses the term to refer to anyone who tries to deny that Jesus came in the flesh! THAT IS THE ANTICHRIST. In the BIBLE, BTW, that is the ONLY definition of the antichrist.

Now -- back to the point...

It is VITAL that we understand that the flesh -- in and of itself -- is NOT SINFUL. In 1 John, John builds his whole case for divine Love on this basis: Jesus came in the flesh and He loved us IN HIS FLESH (nailed it to the Cross!) and THEREFORE we MUST Love one another IN THE FLESH AS WELL.

This is a KEY CONCEPT! Once we've become Christians, we are IN CHRIST and we are NO LONGER SINNERS...WE ARE SAINTS...

...and our FLESH is no longer the vehicle of sin, our flesh has become the vehicle of God's Love through us into the lives of those around us.

Here's what got St. John all angry over the antichrists (NOTE: plural -- there were "many antichrists" already tearing God's congregations apart in John's day..)

Anyway, John was incredibly angry at people who dissed the flesh, because anyone who believes that the flesh is inherently sinful and wicked is thereby relieved of loving others in the flesh and laying down their flesh for the interests of others!!! They can simply shrug, say "the flesh is wicked and can't do anything good" and then they can get by with "loving" their "brothers" in just "word" and not in "action". (All that's in 1 John... Go re-read it if you doubt it.)

Anyway, Jimmy -- I'm glad you challenged that "flesh is wicked" idea.

Bless you!

KingdomScribe

 

[Godzchild]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

Oh don't mind me, I'm just talking to myself! Seems noting I say is important in this discussion so I'm just going to ramble now...

blah blah blah blah

Nice day we're having...although it's been raining.

Now my washing is wet!! Arg!!!

Oh well...

Dum de dum de dum de dooooooooooooooo

Tra la la la la laaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Maybe now I might get noticed...whatdaya reckon?

 

[inrsoul]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...

Oh don't mind me, I'm just talking to myself! Seems noting I say is important in this discussion so I'm just going to ramble now...

blah blah blah blah

Nice day we're having...although it's been raining.

Now my washing is wet!! Arg!!!

Oh well...

Dum de dum de dum de dooooooooooooooo

Tra la la la la laaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Maybe now I might get noticed...whatdaya reckon?

Hehehehe.

Speaking about rain. hmmm *looks at the sky*

I think we might be having a bit of that here soon...

 

[Andry]

I am going to say this one more time and i don't care who disagrees with it or how you disagree with it. I am going to summerize the message that i have failed to get across to you. The problem with you people is that you are looking at the messenger and not the message. You have a problem with me, so everything I say, weather it is true or not becomes a source of contention for you.

1. You can not truely know God or have a relationship with him unless you are in a spiritual realm.

2. You can not enter a spiritual realm if you are carnal, or in your flesh.

3. God wants all of us to have a spiritual relationship with him.

4. Therefore, God wants all of us to leave our flesh behind and enter the spiritual realm.

That's all.

That's great Jimmy. You're not walking in the flesh now are you? Very spiritual.

1. God came to us before we cleaned up ourselves.
2. But if we were flesh, or carnal to begin with.....then how can we enter this spiritual realm? Unless, of course, silly me.....God came and gave us grace.
3. God wants all of us to have a relationship with him. It has to begin somehow. Hopefully it will grow and florish so it's intimacy with him, but it doesn't happen after we've perfected ourselves first.
4. Our 'flesh' has been dealt with on the cross. All past, present, and future sins, failures, unbelief, etc etc......cleansed because of Jesus' blood.

That's all.

 

[Andry]

Why are you people always adding things that I don't say? Our sinful nature is learned in childhood.

Ok, I won't add what you say.

My son's five and he has yet to intentionally sin. In fact, he is probably the closest physical connection to heaven than anyone I know. In those five years, I can say without a doubt that I've sinned more than he has. So where is he learning all this sinful nature from?

Scripture please....which I've noticed you haven't referenced any in your last half dozen posts or so.

 

[Strong in Him]

The problem with you people is that you are looking at the messenger and not the message. You have a problem with me, so everything I say, weather it is true or not becomes a source of contention for you.

The problem with us - as least as far as you're concerned - is that we believe the Bible to be the word of God, we read it, accept its authority and try to live by it. You have stated on this forum that you have "outgrown" the Bible. So you state things as though there are indisputable facts and are indignant/surprised when we challenge them.

We do not have a problem with you, we have a problem with your message which is proclaimed as the truth but is not Scriptural. You don't understand that we will believe the Word of God rather than you. Of course, there may be times when what you post IS Scriptural, and then there won't be a problem. You have been asked several times to provide Scriptural support for some of the things you say, and you haven't - no doubt because you can't.


Quite simply, we ARE looking at your message, and it's not Scriptural, so we don't accept it.