Leaving Our Flesh Behind

[Strong in Him]

I don't believe that any of us are worthy of God's Grace. He gives it because he is love, and chooses to give it, not because we have proved ourselves to be worthy of it.

 

[irenemcg]

Jimmy West said

The Christian community believes that man is sinful and evil by nature and is unworthy of the grace of God. While I do not agree with that, I do believe that men do become sinful and even evil during their lifetime and thus loose their worthiness of Gods grace.

But what does the Bible say?

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

You don't agree with the Bible.

 

[Strong in Him]

But what does the Bible say?

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

You don't agree with the Bible.

That's the problem.

 

[Jimmy West]

Jimmy West said

But what does the Bible say?

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

You don't agree with the Bible.

I'm saying that I don't agree with the concept that man is born with a sinful nature. But, he becomes sinful, and yes, does fall short of the Glory of God

 

[Jimmy West]

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That's totally untrue. Where sin abounds grace abounds much more. Our disqualification is exactly our qualification.

Maybe you should try reading it again! I said man looses his worthiness of grace, not that he looses grace.

 

[Andry]

I said man looses his worthiness of grace, not that he looses grace.

This is a complete oxymoron.

How can anyone ever be worthy of grace? And once he attains or earns or gets (pick a verb) this "worthiness" for God's grace....to lose it? Yikes!

 

[JimB]

This is a complete oxymoron.

How can anyone ever be worthy of grace? And once he attains or earns or gets (pick a verb) this "worthiness" for God's grace....to lose it? Yikes!

I agree. The whole point of grace is our unworthiness.

~Jim

 

[Child of JC]

Not at all. But God's grace does not take our flesh away. If that were true, none of us would be living a fleshy life. Keep in mind that there are all kinds of Christians. There all Good Christians and Bad christians. Just because a person is a Christian, that doesn't mean that he or she is a good person. All it means is that they are saved. What do I mean by the term; "bad Christian"? There are many Christians who are saved, but that is all they have. They have their salvation, but have no relationship with jesus. They go to church on Sunday, and give that day to the Lord. The other six days, they are filled with sin and forget all about God. Those are who I refer to as "Bad Christians" Maybe, "bad" is not a good choice of word to use in this case. Maybe I should have called them: "Not so good Christians". So, my point is that If God's grace did take our flesh away, that there would be no "Not so good Christians".

I would call them baby christians, we were all there once. We dont all grow at the same rate, some do stay in stages for a long while.
peace.

 

[Child of JC]

I think I address this on the other page. I said that as we go along and grow in Christ and mature.....etc etc

I believe one eventually realises what 'riverpastor' has said in his testimony and it's then that they move from milk to meat and it will show. I believe the Holy Spirit is what leads us to this 'maturity' in Christ. This has definetly happened to me.

NO KIDDING, it just happened to me yesterday!

 

[inrsoul]

I'm saying that I don't agree with the concept that man is born with a sinful nature. But, he becomes sinful, and yes, does fall short of the Glory of God

I'm pretty sure there's no other word that says otherwise. It is not a concept of man that all are sinful, ALL are. God said so Himself.

 

[inrsoul]

Maybe you should try reading it again! I said man looses his worthiness of grace, not that he looses grace.

No one is worthy of grace. Not even you bro. Not even I. Not even the best writer here in CF. Or even the pope for that matter.

Grace is grace because we do not deserve it.

 

[Jimmy West]

Jimmy...

If this were really true, then the best thing we could do would be to kill all the children before they have a chance to develop a sinful nature.

By killing them, we would ensure them a place in heaven...





Obviously, there's a problem with that--which is why scripture teaches something totally different!

Why would that be the BEST thing we could do?

 

[Jimmy West]

I'm pretty sure there's no other word that says otherwise. It is not a concept of man that all are sinful, ALL are. God said so Himself.

Are you reading something else into what I am saying? YES! I agree! ALL men are sinful! I am just saying that men ARE NOT born that way, that they BECOME that way as a result of a corrupt world.

 

[Godzchild]

Actually I think I understand what you mean now. Are you saying that when we are born as babies we are not full of sin but as we move through life we become sinful based on our experiences in life?

On one had I would agree to a certain extent but on the other hand I have to disagree and here's why...When a person is born, from the moment that they are born they start ageing. They can get sick they can die they age they can hurt themselves - bleed, feel pain etc etc. I believe that the reason this happens is because of sin. I believe our flesh is riddled with sin which is why we die. Why we age. From the moment we are born we age and start our journey towards death (physical death). So in a sense we are all born full of sin...meaning our flesh is mortal and our flesh is mortal because of Sin. No one is exempt from that - no one! We are all born this way.

As for losing our worthiness of Grace - how can you lose something you never had. No one has ever been worthy of Grace so they can't very well lose worthiness if they never had it.

 

[inrsoul]

Are you reading something else into what I am saying? YES! I agree! ALL men are sinful! I am just saying that men ARE NOT born that way, that they BECOME that way as a result of a corrupt world.

Our flesh doesn't become corrupt as we grow older, we are born of sinful flesh. The potential to sin is right there in the flesh. Since Adam fell, all of mankind came short of God's glory. It's either you're a sinner (doesn't matter whether you do good or bad) or you're not. There was never a go-between.

 

[Jimmy West]

Our flesh doesn't become corrupt as we grow older, we are born of sinful flesh. The potential to sin is right there in the flesh. Since Adam fell, all of mankind came short of God's glory. It's either you're a sinner (doesn't matter whether you do good or bad) or you're not. There was never a go-between.

What you are saying is that God created us of sinful flesh. God would NOT create anything of sinful flesh! Why would He do that. Did He mess up? Everything God creates is perfect. We become imperfect through our free will. If God hads created us of sinful flesh, He would have discarded us and started over, for God is perfection and that which comes out of the breath of God MUST be perfect.

The potential to sin comes from free will. And free will can also lead us away from sin! It is our choice and that is the way that God wants it to be.

We are all sinners, but we are not born that way. Every baby that is born is innocent and has the potential to be sinful or godly. Mans sinful nature is not heredetary. It is learned!

 

[Godzchild]

Have you read my post yet?

 

[Father Rick]

In answer to your question in a previous post...

We are all sinners, but we are not born that way. Every baby that is born is innocent and has the potential to be sinful or godly. Mans sinful nature is not heredetary. It is learned!

This is EXACTLY why I made the statement I did-- that IF what you were saying is true that we should kill all the children...

Because, IF what you are saying is true, then we are doing them a favor by killing them all as soon as they are born-- or even yet, aborting them-- before they have a chance to sin. Since sin is what separates man from God, if we kill them all first then we are actually doing them a favor by ensuring that they never have a chance to separate themselves from God-- and thereby face the dangers of hell.




If what you are saying is true, then a child who dies before he has a chance to sin is righteous/sinless in his own right and has no need for Jesus. Scripture actually teaches the exact opposite of what you are proposing here Jimmy. Scripture says "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God". It does not say, "All will eventually sin ..." We are ALL born under the bondage of sin ("For as by one man's trangression sin entered the world").



Jimmy, the 'revelations' that you claim to be receiving are gradually getting further and further away from the revealed Truth in Scripture. According to this one, Jesus didn't die for all.... but only for those who live long enough to sin and fall from God's grace on their own. AND, according to what you have said here... if a person just spends enough time in the presence of God, they could potentially live their entire life without sinning-- and therefore they could be perfect as Jesus was.

 

[inrsoul]

What you are saying is that God created us of sinful flesh. God would NOT create anything of sinful flesh! Why would He do that. Did He mess up? Everything God creates is perfect. We become imperfect through our free will. If God hads created us of sinful flesh, He would have discarded us and started over, for God is perfection and that which comes out of the breath of God MUST be perfect.

The potential to sin comes from free will. And free will can also lead us away from sin! It is our choice and that is the way that God wants it to be.

We are all sinners, but we are not born that way. Every baby that is born is innocent and has the potential to be sinful or godly. Mans sinful nature is not heredetary. It is learned!

What He created was perfect; Till Adam's sin and then we lost all glory from then on. Yes, we are born imperfect. We are born of sinful flesh. Even Jesus was born in the likeness of it.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;

Do you contest what it is written in the Bible?

Yes, we all have sinful flesh since birth, but do we have the knowledge of sin? Nope, not until we understood the "laws" around us, not until we understood the nature of this world.

Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin worked in our members through the law to bring forth fruit to death.

So you see, no one is born innocent. No one is innocent.

That's what grace is all about... God's grace is bigger than your sin, you undeserving one. And I thank God that I am undeserving too.

 

[Jimmy West]

In answer to your question in a previous post...

This is EXACTLY why I made the statement I did-- that IF what you were saying is true that we should kill all the children...

Because, IF what you are saying is true, then we are doing them a favor by killing them all as soon as they are born-- or even yet, aborting them-- before they have a chance to sin. Since sin is what separates man from God, if we kill them all first then we are actually doing them a favor by ensuring that they never have a chance to separate themselves from God-- and thereby face the dangers of hell.




If what you are saying is true, then a child who dies before he has a chance to sin is righteous/sinless in his own right and has no need for Jesus. Scripture actually teaches the exact opposite of what you are proposing here Jimmy. Scripture says "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God". It does not say, "All will eventually sin ..." We are ALL born under the bondage of sin ("For as by one man's trangression sin entered the world").



Jimmy, the 'revelations' that you claim to be receiving are gradually getting further and further away from the revealed Truth in Scripture. According to this one, Jesus didn't die for all.... but only for those who live long enough to sin and fall from God's grace on their own. AND, according to what you have said here... if a person just spends enough time in the presence of God, they could potentially live their entire life without sinning-- and therefore they could be perfect as Jesus was.

Why are you people always adding things that I don't say? Our sinful nature is learned in childhood.