LDS teachings on God

[TheBarrd]

You can make whatever statements you like, but the Bible clearly identifies Jesus as a man. Your argument doesn't even make sense; man and human mean the same thing. Look at the word human. This is just plain silliness.


Man (taken from dictionary.com)

2. a member of the species Homo sapiens or all the members of this species collectively, without regard to sex: prehistoric man.

3. the human individual as representing the species, without reference to sex; the human race; humankind: Man hopes for peace, but prepares for war.

4. a human being; person: to give a man a chance; When the audience smelled the smoke, it was every man for himself.



:o

None of this has anything to do with what I actually said.
Jesus was not, is not, and never will be a man.
Perhaps the "math" I used was too high for you to follow.

Let me go through it again for you:

Jesus was God in a human body. He was not a man. Unless you think that a man could:
walk on water
stop a storm
feed a crowd of thousands with a couple of fish and a loaf of bread
feel virtue going out of him
heal diseases with a touch
open blind eyes
strengthen crippled legs
straighten withered limbs
cast out demons
cure leprosy with a touch
raise the dead
etc...

I know of no man who can do such things.
Do you?

You don't even need high school geometry to figure it out. If you can read as well as an average third grader, it should be pretty easy.

Jesus could walk on water, and do many other things a human being can not do.
Jesus is not a human being.

Jesus is our Immanuel...that is "God with us."
He is God in a human body.

It's not all that complicated.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Jesus was God in a human body. He was not a man. Unless you think that a man could:
walk on water
stop a storm
feed a crowd of thousands with a couple of fish and a loaf of bread
feel virtue going out of him
heal diseases with a touch
open blind eyes
strengthen crippled legs
straighten withered limbs
cast out demons
cure leprosy with a touch
raise the dead
etc...

Oh ye of little faith.
Didn't Peter walk on water until he began to fear?
Didn't Peter heal the sick by the power of God?
Jesus didn't actually do these things either.
John 14:10
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

How far will trinitarians go to deny the truth of the scriptures and the truth of the Father revealed in Jesus Christ?

Jesus was God in a human body. He was not a man.

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Matthew 17:22
22 ¶And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
1 Corinthians 15:21
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So you are right in the sense that Jesus' Adam body is not what makes Him Elohim - His perfect spirit is. What makes Him Elohim is His righteousness and willingness to live His covenant with His Father. This is indeed what begot Him as the Son of the Father to be the chief cornerstone of the family of God or Elohim. Neither does the Father's body make Him God - what makes Him God is the power of His Spirit which is who we are to worship in spirit for He is the Father of spirits. Spirits can be Elohim, but corruptible man cannot inherit the kingdom.

So it is plain Jesus was a man, who is perfect and is God/Elohim and will inherit all the Father has, and be our Father - ending the trinitarian notion that the Son is not the Father. But you fight against the hope of His calling, and His inheritance in the saints.

 

[Wryetui]

But then the LDS are polytheists, aren't they?

 

[TheBarrd]

Oh ye of little faith.
Didn't Peter walk on water until he began to fear?
Didn't Peter heal the sick by the power of God?
Jesus didn't actually do these things either.
John 14:10
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

How far will trinitarians go to deny the truth of the scriptures and the truth of the Father revealed in Jesus Christ?

1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Matthew 17:22
22 ¶And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
1 Corinthians 15:21
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Luke 24:39
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So you are right in the sense that Jesus' Adam body is not what makes Him Elohim - His perfect spirit is. What makes Him Elohim is His righteousness and willingness to live His covenant with His Father. This is indeed what begot Him as the Son of the Father to be the chief cornerstone of the family of God or Elohim. Neither does the Father's body make Him God - what makes Him God is the power of His Spirit which is who we are to worship in spirit for He is the Father of spirits. Spirits can be Elohim, but corruptible man cannot inherit the kingdom.

So it is plain Jesus was a man, who is perfect and is God/Elohim and will inherit all the Father has, and be our Father - ending the trinitarian notion that the Son is not the Father. But you fight against the hope of His calling, and His inheritance in the saints.

So, since you have the "restored gospel", and I have not, it is plain that you have more faith than I have....

When was the last time YOU
walked on water
stopped a storm
fed a crowd of thousands with a couple of fish and a loaf of bread
felt virtue going out of you
healed diseases with a touch
opened blind eyes
strengthen crippled legs
straightened withered limbs
cast out demons
cured leprosy with a touch
raised the dead
etc...

Please, won't you tell us?

 

[TheBarrd]

But then the LDS are polytheists, aren't they?

One of them...I have forgotten which...told me once that they are "henotheists".
Have you heard that term before?
I hadn't, so I looked it up.

It means that they acknowledge the existence of an infinite number of gods, all of whom continue to make ever more gods....

But they only worship one of them. They know nothing of any of the others, the others don't mean "a hill of beans". When it comes to all of these other gods, they "don't know, don't care". Go figure....

I'm still trying to figure out how they view the Son...
Either He is, as mainstream Christians believe, a part of the Godhead, or Trinity, along with the Holy Spirit...
Or he is a separate "little g" god...which, as you say, would make them polytheists.

 

[Ran77]

I have certainly had fun with this, but it is time for me to stop.

Over the last few days I have gotten the critics of the LDS Church to argue that the big yellow thing in the sky isn't the sun.

The LDS critics have argued against a sound mathematical proof.

The LDS critics have argued against the words in the Bible that clearly state the same thing I posted.

The LDS critics have argued with me over something they said and I repeated.


The evidence is there for all to read. I submit the last few day's posts as proof that our critics will argue with the LDS about anything. All it requires is for an LDS to make a statement and the arguments will start to pour in. My performance is done. Thank you for participating.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I have never said He has the body of corruptible man. That is you trying to put words in my mouth.

I never said you said that. I quoted someone else.

He has a body which can appear to our eyes like that of Jesus. It has the appearance of a man, but is perfected.
So you tell me, how he "created" us in their image if we don't look like them since the creation of Adam refers to the creation of a physical body?
I would say a female still has physical features like Jesus will have when He returns - two eyes, nose, mouth, two arms, two legs, etc, and thus Elohim says she is in their "image" but in a corruptible body rather than a perfected one. Since you want context maybe you have another in mind because I don't see it. How can we be created in their image and yet you claim God is nothing like man?

God is spirit (John 4:4) and therefore does not have a physical body. God created mankind with His invisible qualities - intelligence, rational thought, love, fellowship, etc. - not in accordance with any physical attributes.

 

[BigDaddy4]

You're not seriously asking this are you?

Yes I did ask that and thanks for your non-answer.

 

[Wryetui]

But henotheists are polytheists too, they recognize more gods even if they don't worship them, is it?

 

[Moodshadow]

I have certainly had fun with this, but it is time for me to stop.

Over the last few days I have gotten the critics of the LDS Church to argue that the big yellow thing in the sky isn't the sun.

The LDS critics have argued against a sound mathematical proof.

The LDS critics have argued against the words in the Bible that clearly state the same thing I posted.

The LDS critics have argued with me over something they said and I repeated.

The evidence is there for all to read. I submit the last few day's posts as proof that our critics will argue with the LDS about anything. All it requires is for an LDS to make a statement and the arguments will start to pour in. My performance is done. Thank you for participating.

Have you ever considered that it feels pretty much the same way from the other perspective?

Thank you for your "performance."

 

[RevelationTestament]

God is spirit (John 4:4) and therefore does not have a physical body. God created mankind with His invisible qualities - intelligence, rational thought, love, fellowship, etc. - not in accordance with any physical attributes.

And in the next chapter John 5 Jesus says no man has seen the shape[image] of the Father.

Satan would have us believe that Heavenly Father is a disembodied spirit like himself. But the Father is not the Holy Spirit. He is our Holy Father, like Jesus will be Isa. 9:6 - exactly when is Jesus supposed to divest Himself of His body?
This is the meaning of the scriptures. In creating this whole world with the Father, Jesus is simply doing what His Father taught Him, and indeed showed Him by pure example.

Hebrews 12:9 "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

Elohei haruchot I'chol-basar or
God of the spirits of all flesh (Num. 16:22; 27:16)

The same scriptures used by Jesus show we are spirits like the Father. You are just merely quoting John 4 without the full context that Jesus is telling us to worship the Father spiritually and not the letter of the law going through the motions of animal sacrifice etc. The Father told Moses no man could see Him and live - something He would not say if He was merely an invisible Spirit - and Moses saw His hand and back parts.

I'm not going to go round and round on the same arguments. I have said what I can show from the scriptures and I see the same arguments being repeated. Jesus can and does reveal the Father to whom He will. I don't want to get into a contentious argument with you or TheBarrd. I can see heels are dug in. But I will say for the sake of the reader that there are biblical scriptures which when understood as a whole reveal a more complete picture of the nature of God than orthodoxy has understood in the creeds, and that Jesus revealed the nature of the Father in His work He wrought with His blood up on the cross. It is not my intention to offend anybody, so I apologize if anyone feels offended, but people often feel passionately about their view of God. Any time a traditional view is challenged, feelings seem to come to the surface. Christ said many would be offended in Him. I am not. I know He plainly showed us of Father YHWH, Behold the hand, Behold the nail, up on the cross.
Blessings

 

[TheBarrd]

Have you ever considered that it feels pretty much the same way from the other perspective?

Thank you for your "performance."

Actually, I think I'm having way more fun than he is.

 

[TheBarrd]

But henotheists are polytheists too, they recognize more gods even if they don't worship them, is it?

Well, that makes sense to you and I...
However, the one guy who said LDS are "henotheists" didn't see it that way.
The rest of them seem to think that if they just refuse to notice any of these infinite other gods, that somehow, that will make them monotheists, just like any other Christian.
The logic there is a little vague, however...

 

[Wryetui]

Well, that makes sense to you and I...
However, the one guy who said LDS are "henotheists" didn't see it that way.
The rest of them seem to think that if they just refuse to notice any of these infinite other gods, that somehow, that will make them monotheists, just like any other Christian.
The logic there is a little vague, however...

Just wait to see the other Mormon gods, I am very curious how do they look now. I have to ask, is Satan also called Ctulhu? (Don't offend, I'm just kidding).

 

[TheBarrd]

And in the next chapter John 5 Jesus says no man has seen the shape[image] of the Father.

Satan would have us believe that Heavenly Father is a disembodied spirit like himself. But the Father is not the Holy Spirit. He is our Holy Father, like Jesus will be Isa. 9:6 - exactly when is Jesus supposed to divest Himself of His body?
This is the meaning of the scriptures. In creating this whole world with the Father, Jesus is simply doing what His Father taught Him, and indeed showed Him by pure example.

Hebrews 12:9 "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

Elohei haruchot I'chol-basar or
God of the spirits of all flesh (Num. 16:22; 27:16)

The same scriptures used by Jesus show we are spirits like the Father. You are just merely quoting John 4 without the full context that Jesus is telling us to worship the Father spiritually and not the letter of the law going through the motions of animal sacrifice etc. The Father told Moses no man could see Him and live - something He would not say if He was merely an invisible Spirit - and Moses saw His hand and back parts.

I'm not going to go round and round on the same arguments. I have said what I can show from the scriptures and I see the same arguments being repeated. Jesus can and does reveal the Father to whom He will. I don't want to get into a contentious argument with you or TheBarrd. I can see heels are dug in. But I will say for the sake of the reader that there are biblical scriptures which when understood as a whole reveal a more complete picture of the nature of God than orthodoxy has understood in the creeds, and that Jesus revealed the nature of the Father in His work He wrought with His blood up on the cross. It is not my intention to offend anybody, so I apologize if anyone feels offended, but people often feel passionately about their view of God. Any time a traditional view is challenged, feelings seem to come to the surface. Christ said many would be offended in Him. I am not. I know He plainly showed us of Father YHWH, Behold the hand, Behold the nail, up on the cross.
Blessings

You know that I actually do like you, RT.
I have a lot of respect for your intelligence, which has amazed me more than once.
I am happy that you do not wish to get into a "contentious argument" with me, or with BigDaddy, as that was never my intention in getting involved with these threads in the first place.
As you know, I fully expected to be told that the "rumor" that Mormons worshiped a god that they think was a man born on another planet was just what it sounds like...a load of hooey. I'm getting over the shock...a little...but I still do not understand how a reasonably intelligent man could possibly really and truly believe what seems to be just plain nonsense. Hard as I try, I just cannot see how...
But enough of that. Obviously you do believe it. And, dear man...your own heels are pretty much "dug in". You are not about to listen to any arguments to the contrary, and that's all there is to it. No matter what I or anyone else says on the subject, you are firm.
It makes me very sad to see this...and I hope with all of my heart that God...the real "big G" God...will have mercy on all of you. Because I really do believe that this is blasphemy...as hard as I try, I just can't see how it could not be.
I know that a man will go to great lengths to hang on to what he thinks he has...but I also know that there is no profit, even in gaining the whole world, if one loses his soul...

 

[Moodshadow]

Just wait to see the other Mormon gods, I am very curious how do they look now. I have to ask, is Satan also called Ctulhu? (Don't offend, I'm just kidding).

If I'm the least bit wrong about the following (and I always am), someone will no doubt hasten to make the correction.

A potential god, in Mormonism, is even now progressing toward godhood, which means he is somewhere between the pre-existence and the final judgment. During that span of time he will need to do all of the following:

be born to receive his physical body;
accept the teachings of the LDS church;
repent of all his sins and transgressions;
be baptized, at the age of 8 or any time thereafter;
receive what is called the gift of the Holy Ghost (another whole discussion);
perform all of his duties/callings in the church honorably;
qualify for a temple recommend and perform temple ordinances for the living and the dead;
be sealed to his own wife/wives in the temple;
continue to obey all the commandments as outlined in LDS doctrine;
endure to the end doing all of the above.

There are others, such as receiving what is called the second comforter, which is not talked about much even in the church. Another is having one's calling and election made sure, published information about which is vague at best. Online information about these things is available but not definitive.

Eventually this individual passes through the veil to meet the Savior in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, and at some point he is adjudged worthy to become a god in his own right, with all the blessings and rights that go with that. Of course his equally worthy wife/wives will go with him to help him populate their new realm.

 

[Ironhold]

And finally, what things are you talking about that would "net" you such a dire consequence?

I was going to post my personal Skippy's List (all 223 items), but it seems to be too long for a single post.

 

[Moodshadow]

I was going to post my personal Skippy's List (all 223 items), but it seems to be too long for a single post.

My guess would be that perhaps you're the only one here who has any idea what that means.

 

[drstevej]

Urban Dictionary:
skippy list
A list of things you're not allowed to do. Popularized by a website made by a military personnel listing all the things he was no longer allowed to do in the military.

 

[Ironhold]

My guess would be that perhaps you're the only one here who has any idea what that means.

The original "Skippy's List" is the 214 things "Skippy" is no longer allowed to do in the Army. It first emerged about 15 years ago and quickly became an internet sensation.

examples:

57. The proper response to a lawful order is not “Why?”

67. I am not the Psychological Warfare Mascot.

96. “Redneck Zombies” is not a military training aid.

152. The following items do not exist: Keys to the Drop Zone, A box of grid squares, blinker fluid, winter air for tires, canopy lights, or Chem-Light ® batteries.

181. Pokémon® trainer is not an MOS.

183. My chain of command has neither the time, nor the inclination to hear about what I did with six boxes of Fruit Roll-Ups. ®

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about.