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LDs Teach that the resurrected body will not have blood

Rescued One

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LDS Teach that the resurrected body will not have blood:

... Jesus had this power in and of himself; the Father bequeathed it to him; it was his legacy, and he had the power to lay down his life and take it again (DBY, 340–41).

The blood he spilled upon Mount Calvary he did not receive again into his veins. That was poured out, and when he was resurrected, another element took the place of the blood. It will be so with every person who receives a resurrection; the blood will not be resurrected with the body, being designed only to sustain the life of the present organization. When that is dissolved, and we again obtain our bodies by the power of the resurrection, that which we now call the life of the body, and which is formed from the food we eat and the water we drink will be supplanted by another element; for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God [see 1 Corinthians 15:50] (DBY, 374).
“Chapter 37: Understanding Death and Resurrection,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 273
LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Chapter Detail - Understanding Death and Resurrection
 

Rescued One

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"Our Father in heaven and our Savior and all those who have passed through the resurrection have physical bodies of flesh and bones, but their bodies are quickened by spirit and not by blood, hence they are spiritual bodies and not blood bodies. The immortal body is quickened by spirit, but the mortal body is quickened by blood... . Now when Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all other creations."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 76-77

I own this book. Here is a link that you can look at:
Body of Flesh and Bones without Blood - Page 2 - LDS Social Network Forums
 
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Rescued One

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When defending the biblical faith, keep in mind the following:

1 Corinthians 15
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

LDS teach that mortality is having a body with blood flowing through the veins. A resurrected body, according to their teachings, has no blood in the veins.

Matthew 16
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

"The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a Personage of Spirit, a Spirit Person, a Spirit Man, a Spirit Entity. He can be in only one place at one time, and he does not and cannot transform himself into any other form or image than that of the Man whom he is."
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 359

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Holy Ghost is a spirit man, a spirit son of God the Father. It is fundamental Church doctrine that God is the Father of the spirits of all men and women, that Jesus is literally God's Son both in the spirit and in the flesh, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit separate and distinct from both the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Eternal Godhead, and is identified also as the Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, and the comforter." (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 2:649).
Holy Ghost - MormonWiki.org

President Joseph F. Smith taught that, "the Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God, (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., pp. 61-62).
Holy Ghost - MormonWiki.org


Bible:
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 4:24

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 4:38

LDS teach that God the Fatherhas a spirit and also a resurrected body of flesh and bones.

I'd love to see some non-LDS participate in this thread.
 
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Phantasman

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I won't post the full article on God by Origen, but here are parts 1 and 3. The whole is interesting to read, backed up with Canonical scriptures, though.

1. I KNOW that some will attempt to say that, even according to the declarations of our own Scriptures, God is a body, because in the writings of Moses they find it said, that "our God is a consuming fire;" and in the Gospel according to John, that "God is a Spirit, and they who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." Fire and spirit, according to them, are to be regarded as nothing else than a body. Now, I should like to ask these persons what they have to say respecting that passage where it is declared that God is light; as John writes in his Epistle, "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all." Truly He is that light which illuminates the whole understanding of those who are capable of receiving truth, as is said in the thirty-sixth Psalm, "In Thy light we shall see light." For what other light of God can be named, "in which any one sees light," save an influence of God, by which a man, being enlightened, either thoroughly sees the truth of all things, or comes to know God Himself, who is called the truth? Such is the meaning of the expression, "In Thy light we shall see light;" i.e., in Thy word and wisdom which is Thy Son, in Himself we shall see Thee the Father. Because He is called light, shall He be supposed to have any resemblance to the light of the sun? Or how should there be the slightest ground for imagining, that from that corporeal light any one could derive the cause of knowledge, and come to the understanding of the truth?

3. And since many saints participate in the Holy Spirit, He cannot therefore be understood to be a body, which being divided into corporeal parts, is partaken of by each one of the saints; but He is manifestly a sanctifying power, in which all are said to have a share who have deserved to be sanctified by His grace. And in order that what we say may be more easily understood, let us take an illustration from things very dissimilar. There are many persons who take a part in the science s or art of medicine: are we therefore to suppose that those who do so take to themselves the particles of some body called medicine, which is placed before them, and in this way participate in the same? Or must we not rather understand that all who with quick and trained minds come to understand the art and discipline itself, may be said to be par taken of the art of healing? But these are not to be deemed altogether parallel instances in a comparison of medicine to the Holy Spirit, as they have been adduced only to establish that that is not necessarily to be considered a body, a share in which is possessed by many individuals. For the Holy Spirit differs widely from the method or science of medicine, in respect that the Holy Spirit is an intellectual existence and subsists and exists in a peculiar manner, whereas medicine is not at all of that nature.
 
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Phantasman

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Origens answer to mans creation as the image of God:

The highest good, they say, is to become as like to God as possible. But this definition I regard not so much as a discovery of theirs, as a view derived from holy Scripture. For this is pointed out by Moses, before all other philosophers, when he describes the first creation of man in these words: "And God said, Let Us make man in Our own image, and after Our likeness;" and then he adds the words: "So God created man in His own image: in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them, and He blessed them." Now the expression, "In the image of God created He him," without any mention of the word" likeness," conveys no other meaning than this, that man received the dignity of God's image at his first creation; but that the perfection of his likeness has been reserved for the consummation,--namely, that he might acquire it for himself by the exercise of his own diligence in the imitation of God, the possibility of attaining to perfection being granted him at the beginning through the dignity of the divine image, and the perfect realization of the divine likeness being reached in the end by the fulfilment of the (necessary) works.
 
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Rescued One

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Phantasman, I believe that when Adam sinned, he lost some, if not all, of the image of God. For later, the scripture says,

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Romans 8:29

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
2 Corinthians 3:18
 
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Phantasman

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On the body at death, Origen says we lose the "animal body":


5. The last enemy, moreover, who is called death, is said on this account to be destroyed, that there may not be anything left of a mournful kind when death does not exist, nor anything that is adverse when there is no enemy. The destruction of the last enemy, indeed, is to be understood, not as if its substance, which was formed by God, is to perish, but because its mind and hostile will, which came not from God, but from itself, are to be destroyed.
Its destruction, therefore, will not be its non-existence, but its ceasing to be an enemy, and (to be) death. For nothing is impossible to the Omnipotent, nor is anything incapable of restoration 4 to its Creator: for He made all things that they might exist, and those things which were made for existence cannot cease to be. For this reason also will they admit of change and variety, so as to be placed, according to their merits, either in a better or worse position; but no destruction of substance can befall those things which were created by God for the purpose of permanent existence. For those things which agreeably to the common opinion are believed to perish, the nature either of our faith or of the truth will not permit us to suppose to be destroyed. Finally, our flesh is supposed by ignorant men and unbelievers to be destroyed after death, in such a degree that it retains no relic at all of its former substance. We, however, who believe in its resurrection, understand that a change only has been produced by death, but that its substance certainly remains; and that by the will of its Creator, and at the time appointed, it will be restored to life; and that a second time a change will take place in it, so that what at first was flesh (formed) out of earthly soil, and was afterwards dissolved by death, and again reduced to dust and ashes ("For dust thou art," it is said, "and to dust shall thou return"), will be again raised from the earth, and shall after this, according to the merits of the indwelling soul, advance to the glory of a spiritual body.
6. Into this condition, then, we are to suppose that all this bodily substance of ours will be brought, when all things shall be re-established in a state of unity, and when God shall be all in all. And this result must be understood as being brought about, not suddenly, but slowly and gradually, seeing that the process of amendment and correction will take place imperceptibly in the individual instances during the lapse of countless and unmeasured ages, some outstripping others, and tending by a swifter course towards perfection, while others again follow close at hand, and some again a long way behind; and thus, through the numerous and uncounted orders of progressive beings who are being reconciled to God from a state of enmity, the last enemy is finally reached, who is called death, so that he also may be destroyed, and no longer be an enemy. When, therefore, all rational souls shall have been restored to a condition of this kind, then the nature of this body of ours will undergo a change into the glory of a spiritual body. For as we see it not to be the case with rational natures, that some of them have lived in a condition of degradation owing to their sins, while others have been called to a state of happiness on account of their merits; but as we see those same souls who had formerly been sinful, assisted, after their conversion and reconciliation to God, to a state of happiness; so also are we to consider, with respect to the nature of the body, that the one which we now make use of in a state of meanness, and corruption, and weakness, is not a different body from that which we shall possess in incorruption, and in power, and in glory; but that the same body, when it has cast away the infirmities in which it is now entangled, shall be transmuted into a condition of glory, being rendered spiritual, so that what was a vessel of dishonour may, when cleansed, become a vessel unto honour, and an abode of blessedness. And in this condition, also, we are to believe, that by the will of the Creator, it will abide for ever without any change, as is confirmed by the declaration of the apostle, when he says, "We have a house, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." For the faith of the Church does not admit the view of certain Grecian philosophers, that there is besides the body, composed of four elements, another fifth body, which is different in all its parts, and diverse from this our present body; since neither out of sacred Scripture can any produce the slightest suspicion of evidence for such an opinion, nor can any rational inference from things allow the reception of it, especially when the holy apostle manifestly declares, that it is not new bodies which are given to those who rise from the dead, but that they receive those identical ones which they had possessed when living, transformed from an inferior into a better condition. For his words are: "It is sown an animal body, it will rise a spiritual body; it is sown in corruption, it will arise in incorruption: it is sown in weakness, it will arise in power: it is sown in dishonour, it will arise in glory." As, therefore, there is a kind of advance in man, so that from being first an animal being, and not understanding what belongs to the Spirit of God, he reaches by means of instruction the stage of being made a spiritual being, and of judging all things, while he himself is judged by no one; so also, with respect to the state of the body, we are to hold that this very body which now, on account of its service to the soul, is styled an animal body, will, by means of a certain progress, when the soul, united to God, shall have been made one spirit with Him (the body even then ministering, as it were, to the spirit), attain to a spiritual condition and quality, especially since, as we have often pointed out, bodily nature was so formed by the Creator, as to pass easily into whatever condition he should wish, or the nature of the case demand.





I quote Origen because he is one of the only church fathers that I can find that seems to be more spiritual in truth than control when using the Canon system.
 
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Phantasman

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Phantasman, I believe that when Adam sinned, he lost some, if not all, of the image of God. For later, the scripture says,

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
Romans 8:29

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."
2 Corinthians 3:18

We know he lost something of enormous magnitude. Again, we look at the Garden of Eden as a literal story, when it may be more like a parable (of sorts). It may be that we need to just get the message "disobey God and die". But if we follow that story line, it makes one wonder what Adam and Eve were really like "before" sin. They may have had different bodies. After all, once sinned, they knew they had a body that was naked. So was this a physical change or a mental change? Or both? For sure, to get back to God, we have to go through a physical change.
 
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Also, as Origen says, Image and likeness has two separate meanings.

So, how did you manage to effectively derail this thread into a discussion concerning Origen's ideas? As I understand it, this thread is about the teaching of the LDS that the resurrected body does not have blood. I hoped that the LDS could provide pertinent quotes from any of their Four Standard Works to substantiate or disprove this statement. Origen has never been recognized as a prophet by the LDS nor have his writings been considered to be among the Four Standard Works.
 
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TasteForTruth

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So, how did you manage to effectively derail this thread into a discussion concerning Origen's ideas? As I understand it, this thread is about the teaching of the LDS that the resurrected body does not have blood. I hoped that the LDS could provide pertinent quotes from any of their Four Standard Works to substantiate or disprove this statement. Origen has never been recognized as a prophet by the LDS nor have his writings been considered to be among the Four Standard Works.
So now we LDS are being asked to come "substantiate" an LDS doctrine? Since when are LDS the "voice of authority" in this forum on matters LDS? The "authority" of LDS posters to clarify the meaning and/or actuality of our own doctrines comes and goes like the tide around here, on the whims of non-LDS. One minute we have no authority and our doctrines are whatever (or mean whatever) any critic says they are, and the next minute we're being asked to substantiate our doctrines as if the matter can only be resolved if LDS are consulted and weigh in. All you critics need to come to some kind of consensus. You can't have it both ways.

Ask Phoebe Ann if the doctrine in question is, in fact, our Church-approved doctrine—she started the thread, in whose title it is claimed that she knows! Or ask some other outspoken non-LDS in UT. Why do LDS have to post to solve this matter? We're not trusted or authoritative in any of the other threads...why is this one all of a sudden different?
 
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So now we LDS are being asked to come "substantiate" an LDS doctrine? Since when are LDS the "voice of authority" in this forum on matters LDS? The "authority" of LDS posters to clarify the meaning and/or actuality of our own doctrines comes and goes like the tide around here, on the whims of non-LDS. One minute we have no authority and our doctrines are whatever (or mean whatever) any critic says they are, and the next minute we're being asked to substantiate our doctrines as if the matter can only be resolved if LDS are consulted and weigh in. All you critics need to come to some kind of consensus. You can't have it both ways.

Ask Phoebe Ann if the doctrine in question is, in fact, our Church-approved doctrine—she started the thread, in whose title it is claimed that she knows! Or ask some other outspoken non-LDS in UT. Why do LDS have to post to solve this matter? We're not trusted or authoritative in any of the other threads...why is this one all of a sudden different?

As you are well aware, I rarely assert that I am anything of an authority on all matters LDS. I am simply requesting that you either prove or disprove the OP using your own Four Standard Works. Let them speak for the LDS and I will accept what they say as being authoritative. I remain perplexed that what I receive from you is evasion and condemnation. I have hoped that it might be possible to discuss this doctrine in a civil manner.
 
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Rescued One

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As you are well aware, I rarely assert that I am anything of an authority on all matters LDS. I am simply requesting that you either prove or disprove the OP using your own Four Standard Works. Let them speak for the LDS and I will accept what they say as being authoritative. I remain perplexed that what I receive from you is evasion and condemnation. I have hoped that it might be possible to discuss this doctrine in a civil manner.

That's all anyone ever asked. Do LDS teach and believe what is outside their standard works? Do their lesson manuals teach what is not in their standard works? Is there a difference between a man of flesh and bones and one of flesh and blood? What is the difference?

Evasion and condemnation is what I see.
 
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TasteForTruth

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As you are well aware, I rarely assert that I am anything of an authority on all matters LDS. I am simply requesting that you either prove or disprove the OP using your own Four Standard Works. Let them speak for the LDS and I will accept what they say as being authoritative. I remain perplexed that what I receive from you is evasion and condemnation. I have hoped that it might be possible to discuss this doctrine in a civil manner.
Then you have changed your position. Previously it was the authority of an LDS poster's voice you sought:
I hoped that the LDS could provide pertinent quotes from any of their Four Standard Works to substantiate or disprove this statement.
 
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TasteForTruth

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That's all anyone ever asked. Do LDS teach and believe what is outside their standard works? Do their lesson manuals teach what is not in their standard works? Is there a difference between a man of flesh and bones and one of flesh and blood? What is the difference?

Evasion and condemnation is what I see.
Then you are blind. Either that or you didn't read my post. :)

You could answer his question, Phoebe Ann. Why do you hold back?
 
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Phantasman

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So, how did you manage to effectively derail this thread into a discussion concerning Origen's ideas? As I understand it, this thread is about the teaching of the LDS that the resurrected body does not have blood. I hoped that the LDS could provide pertinent quotes from any of their Four Standard Works to substantiate or disprove this statement. Origen has never been recognized as a prophet by the LDS nor have his writings been considered to be among the Four Standard Works.

I guess you didn't read the whole other posts after the first OP. There were posts as to God being flesh and bone. And other things as well. She wants non LDS participants. I obliged and quoted from a church father of Canonical sources. I could use non Canonical, but Orthodox Christians think it's being a heretic.

Are there any more rules I need to follow?

A simple "no, I don't believe the resurrected body will be flesh and blood" is my final answer.
 
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Rescued One

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So now we LDS are being asked to come "substantiate" an LDS doctrine? Since when are LDS the "voice of authority" in this forum on matters LDS?

If you want to be the voice of authority on CF, you know that won't happen. Do you own the site? I don't and I'm not a voice of authority.

The "authority" of LDS posters to clarify the meaning and/or actuality of our own doctrines comes and goes like the tide around here, on the whims of non-LDS.

If you want to clarify something, show us why it needs to be clarified and what lesson manual or a church leader shared in General Conference. Otherwise, we are only getting your opinion on the matter.

One minute we have no authority and our doctrines are whatever (or mean whatever) any critic says they are, and the next minute we're being asked to substantiate our doctrines as if the matter can only be resolved if LDS are consulted and weigh in. All you critics need to come to some kind of consensus. You can't have it both ways.

There aren't two ways. It would be very simple for LDS to quote an authoritative source.

Ask Phoebe Ann if the doctrine in question is, in fact, our Church-approved doctrine—she started the thread, in whose title it is claimed that she knows! Or ask some other outspoken non-LDS in UT. Why do LDS have to post to solve this matter? We're not trusted or authoritative in any of the other threads...why is this one all of a sudden different?

Is this about Phoebe Ann, whom you claim misrepresents Mormonism? Prove her wrong. Prove that she took something out of context or misunderstood what the LDS leader was saying. Don't just make accusations.

Thank you.
 
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Ran77

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Origens answer to mans creation as the image of God:

The highest good, they say, is to become as like to God as possible. But this definition I regard not so much as a discovery of theirs, as a view derived from holy Scripture. For this is pointed out by Moses, before all other philosophers, when he describes the first creation of man in these words: "And God said, Let Us make man in Our own image, and after Our likeness;" and then he adds the words: "So God created man in His own image: in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them, and He blessed them." Now the expression, "In the image of God created He him," without any mention of the word" likeness," conveys no other meaning than this, that man received the dignity of God's image at his first creation; but that the perfection of his likeness has been reserved for the consummation,--namely, that he might acquire it for himself by the exercise of his own diligence in the imitation of God, the possibility of attaining to perfection being granted him at the beginning through the dignity of the divine image, and the perfect realization of the divine likeness being reached in the end by the fulfilment of the (necessary) works.

Good posts. I enjoyed both of them.


:thumbsup:
 
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Ran77

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So, how did you manage to effectively derail this thread into a discussion concerning Origen's ideas? As I understand it, this thread is about the teaching of the LDS that the resurrected body does not have blood. I hoped that the LDS could provide pertinent quotes from any of their Four Standard Works to substantiate or disprove this statement. Origen has never been recognized as a prophet by the LDS nor have his writings been considered to be among the Four Standard Works.

I looked. I didn't see any questions asked of the LDS. Phoebe posted some quotes from LDS sources. What exactly is it that you expect us to do? (That wasn't meant sarcastically either.)

:)
 
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Clare73

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Phantasman, I believe that when Adam sinned, he lost some, if not all, of the image of God.
Gen 9:6, after the flood, reiterates that man is made in the image of God.

In the faith,
Clare
 
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