LDS/Mormonism

[skylark1]

Sorry about the off topicness of dispute whether certain books were cannonized. My goal was to point out that the 'Christian' churches are not united.

So you did not really want to discuss this, but only posted that to stir up controversy between the Catholics and Protestants? I will try to keep that in mind when I read other posts that you make, and consider that you do not really want to discuss something, but only wish to stir the pot.

Although we disagree about some things, there is far more unity than there is disunity.



There is a great deal of unity found here:

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)

​

 

[happyinhisgrace]

So you did not really want to discuss this, but only posted that to stir up controversy between the Catholics and Protestants? I will try to keep that in mind when I read other posts that you make, and consider that you do not really want to discuss something, but only wish to stir the pot.

Although we disagree about some things, there is far more unity than there is disunity.





There is a great deal of unity found here:

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. (Ephesians 4: 5)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)


​

I agree that while there are obvious things that Catholics and Prodestants disgaree on, we still have a great deal of unity and the most important topic of agreement is belief and worship of the ONE true God of the Bible.

 

[Croesus]

So you did not really want to discuss this, but only posted that to stir up controversy between the Catholics and Protestants? I will try to keep that in mind when I read other posts that you make, and consider that you do not really want to discuss something, but only wish to stir the pot.

My mistake I appologized for starting something I didn't. It turns out Crispie started it. So please, forgive me. Lets let it drop. Lets talk about the relevant stuff that has been posted.

What I meant in #6 was Why put the tree of knowledge in there in the first place? Why let Satan tempt Adam and Eve? Doesn't God have power over Satan? Couldn't God just remove ALL tempatation from the earth? Or is God limited?

But yes, I agree that God does not tempt people, but instead lets people be tempted.

 

[feo]

1. After talking to a few people that are mormon, I don't think that we believe in a non-eternal non-infinite God. In fact, I am really sure we believe that God is the same forever, and unchanging, and that God has no begining.

Lets start off by asking what YOU personally think-- in regards to scripture. Trying to figure out what the mormon church is thinking is impossible; the doctrines will prolly change tomorrow. The difference between 'us' and 'God', is that we have a beginning, God does not. We were created, God is eternal. How is God Eternal if He was created?

It doesn't make sense (which I think was the beauty/purpose of the Nicean Creed), but neither does Picasso's paintings

The Holy Trinity does not make sense? When the religious leaders were angry at Jesus, do you know why? One of 'em stated, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" After he said that, I want you to pay close attention, to how Jesus did not argue with him

Why create humans? Why give humans the choice? If we were supposed to stay in the garden, why tempt humans with knowledge of good and evil?

Because a god that does not allow us to think on our own, does not trully love us unconditionaly. That does NOT mean that sin is a good thing. There is no relationship between those two facts; whatsoever.

 

[Croesus]

We were created,

Really? That's not how I read the Bible. My bible says Adam was formed from the dust of the earth. Besides, don't all things with a begining have an end?

Ok, I thought I answered wether I thought God wasn't always God. My answer is, no. God was always, is always, and will be always.

Because a god that does not allow us to think on our own, does not trully love us unconditionaly. That does NOT mean that sin is a good thing. There is no relationship between those two facts; whatsoever.

Yeah, sin is never good. No good ever came from sin, with maybe a few exceptions. Jesus being betrayed was a sin by Judas. Did any good come from it? Jesus being crucified was a sin on the part of someone (either the jews, Pilate, or maybe even the people that nailed him), did anything good happen because of it?

I've thought a lot about Adam. I am sure Adam was punished for eating the fruit. I am sure that he had to repent. I am pretty sure that maybe at times he wished he hadn't.

 

[feo]

Really? That's not how I read the Bible. My bible says Adam was formed from the dust of the earth. Besides, don't all things with a begining have an end?

You dont read the bible as we were 'created'? Wow- is all I can say. Well, that and unbiblical.

Ok, I thought I answered wether I thought God wasn't always God. My answer is, no. God was always, is always, and will be always.

Your god was once a man, created in another gods image?

Yeah, sin is never good. No good ever came from sin, with maybe a few exceptions.

Few exceptions? Absolutely not. Good does not come from sin; good comes from God working around sin; because He is bigger than sin.

I've thought a lot about Adam. I am sure Adam was punished for eating the fruit. I am sure that he had to repent. I am pretty sure that maybe at times he wished he hadn't.

Many mormons have thought a lot about Adam. Have you read your churchs old Adam-God doctrine?

 

[Croesus]

Ok, so God worked around Adam eating fruit. What is the problem with this?

I am not sure that my God being a man is really doctrine. I am begining to think that maybe it is something that should stop.

No, I haven't read my Old Adam-God doctrine. I have no idea what you are refering to. Please give me a primary source. I don't want a copy and paste of a quote without a primary source reference.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

Ok, so God worked around Adam eating fruit. What is the problem with this?

I am not sure that my God being a man is really doctrine. I am begining to think that maybe it is something that should stop.

No, I haven't read my Old Adam-God doctrine. I have no idea what you are refering to. Please give me a primary source. I don't want a copy and paste of a quote without a primary source reference.

If you have one of the LDS info-CD's you can verify the accuracy of this source. This is Brigham Young's first sermon on Adam-god:

http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/Vol_01/refJDvol1-10.html

 

[feo]

No, I haven't read my Old Adam-God doctrine. I have no idea what you are refering to. Please give me a primary source. I don't want a copy and paste of a quote without a primary source reference.

The Adam-God doctrine basically says that Jesus had a physical conception, and identified Adam as God.

Brigham Young; the prophet of mormonism stated: "Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do." (Journal of Discourses, Vol 1, p50)

This was later denounced by so-called prophet Spencer Kimball in 1976: "We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine." (Church News, October 9, 1976)

We have a very striking difference of opinion here. These points are essential to mormon doctrine, because mormonism lives or dies on the authenicity of modern day revlation to its prophets. How can a true faith be based on teachings of a false phrophet? In my opinion, it cannot.

When wrapping up his teachings, Brigham Young stated in 1852: "Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation." (Ibid, Vol 1, p51)

These are very serious words, especially when it claims that belief in the Adam-God doctrine is a belief on which a persons very salvation hinges. My personal salvation is through Jesus Christ alone, and no other. Not on false prophets, not in a physical building- but through Christs love am I saved.

Adam was not God, nor was Adam a creator: he was a creation- just like us. Every mormon needs to read this- and decide for themselves if they are willing to follow the teachings of a false prophet. If not, it is time to claim redemption through Jesus Christ: and Christ alone.

 

[Croesus]

Thanks for the reply. I am a bit busy right now with work and school, so I won't have time to head over to the library to see this book. I read the internet version a bit, and verified that what you quoted seems to be in context and accurate. Sorry that I can't work on it right now.

 

[feo]

Thanks for the reply. I am a bit busy right now with work and school, so I won't have time to head over to the library to see this book. I read the internet version a bit, and verified that what you quoted seems to be in context and accurate. Sorry that I can't work on it right now.

Actually: I have a lot of respect for you. You did not do what most mormons do when they're confronted with their church leaders past statements:

1-- You Didnt get extremely hostile and accuse me of being anti-mormon.

2-- You're actually willing to research it on your own.