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Featured LDS LDS folk, a question for you

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by drstevej, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    I do not need to look at the whole, to see the sample parts of the whole.

    It said He spake and "it was" (came to be), not gathered 'atoms' into one place. Your position assumes 'atoms' and 'God'.

    My position only assumes God, as He is the creator of even the 'mote in the sunbeam'.

    Since this subject seems to be exhausted, how about the other subjects raised, such as 'the first day texts' I gave previously

    What of the question about whether LDS still to this day practice footwashing. Is it only a temple service, or was it only for Joseph Smith and those at his time?
  2. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    In John 20:17:

    Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    The context is that Jesus is speaking to His disciples, for Jesus also said of the Pharisees:

    Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    The Bible also speaks of the children of the wicked one:

    Mat_13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

    1Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

    The Bible also speaks of:

    Heb_12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye b.astards, and not sons.
  3. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    United States
    No, we didn't live with God prior to being born on earth. That is Mormon fiction. We are God's creation.
  4. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    You would have to give me some scripture to help me with this.

    Lucifer was a spirit child of God, and because he was, he had the same immortal nature that God has.
    So do you. You have not reached your potential godly nature yet, nor have I, but that potential exists.
    Unfortunately, lucifer went all in with his war in heaven and lost and will not have the opportunity to mature from an god in embryo to being a god like God the Father. That is the whole purpose of God the Father to propagate His species. We are that species.

    No, satan is immortal. He is in spirit form and will never receive a body of flesh and bone, but his spirit is eternal and will not stop existing.

    Interesting that vs 17 in Hebrews 2 it says that Jesus was "made" like unto his brethren... interesting.

    There is no doubt that the word "beginning" in Revelations means just that, "the first", because the Colossians scripture confirms that by using the word "firstborn". These are the words translated by the KJV. The other corrupt versions use other words to try to bypass the idea that Jesus was the first creation of God. That is why it is so important to know that the word "create" again does not mean "out of nothing". In this case it means: the intelligence and the spirit are inseparably connected by God to form an independent entity. This is how Jesus was formed and you and I. Our spirits are eternal and were not created and can not be destroyed. That is the nature of God. He is, he was, and he will always be. We are, we were, and we will always be.

    If Jesus is the firstborn of the creations of God, (Colossians 1:15), how can he be the one that created all things? This is how: Jesus was indeed the first intelligence and spirit formed by God. This creation is recorded in Genesis 1:26-27. God (Elohim) was the creator of this spirit creation in Genesis 1. Jesus was perfect and sinless from the beginning and was given the power and the authority of godliness, and the power to create. It is Jesus (Yahweh Elohim) that is presented to us in Genesis 2:4, as the Lord God, (notice this name is different than God/Elohim in Genesis 1) and in Genesis 2, the Lord God (Jesus) created all things naturally upon the earth (Genesis 2:6 to end).

    Not quite. You and I and lucifer and Jesus were all created in spirit form by God in Genesis 1:26-27
    You and I were then created by Jesus in our natural form later. Not so with lucifer/satan. He was created in the spirit form by God, but will never receive a natural body from Jesus because of his rebellion.

    Sorry, begotten has to do with having sex with your wife and having a child. There may be a Christian lexicon somewhere that tries to get around the word begotten and its sexual nature, but I have never heard that begotten has to do with eternal nature, and the resurrection, except that being begotten by God you inherit that nature, and the ability to raise yourself.

    Have you ever read:
    Luke 1:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
    34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    So the Holy Ghost fell upon her, and the power of the Highest overshadowed her.
    And wherefore the holy thing that was born was the Son of God.

    Tell me who is this power of the Highest?
    Tell me for what purpose did this Power of the Highest overshadow Mary?

    A mortal father and mother and all mortals have eternal, immortal, intelligence's and spirits. When their flesh and bone is in the grave the intelligence and spirit live on as an eternal entity. When the resurrection takes place, the intelligence and spirit will reunite with the flesh and bone body and they will be inseparably connected for eternity, never to be corrupted again. Perfect, indestructible resurrected bodies of flesh and bone and spirit (including the intelligence).[/QUOTE]
  5. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    Too many scriptures tell us that what we teach is the truth. You don't believe, so you ignore those scriptures.

    Yes, you are God's spirit creation, but you are Jesus's flesh and blood creation.
  6. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

    You certainly went to a lot of bother talking about children of the wicked one. Why?

    I gave you a straight statement from Jesus to Mary, (not his disciples-your context is off) and Jesus tells us that his Father (who we know is God the Father) is also our Father. So God the Father is the Father of Jesus and the Father of you and I. Our Father is not satan. BTW satan's Father was also God the Father.

    The question is: how can God the Father be my Father, when I have a mortal father? It is because God is the Father of my spirit. (Romans 8:16, Hebrews 12:9, Acts 17:28-29) My mortal father is the father of my flesh and bone body.
  7. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    United States
    No, you have that WRONG. What I don't believe are the LIES your church teaches. I believe the BIBLE, not the Mormon fiction. Mormonism criticizes Christian beliefs, then certain Mormons come on here and pretend they actually believe the Bible and accuse the rest of us of ignoring a lot of it. There is no commandment of Jesus that I ignore. I believe in keeping His commandments because I love Him. I don't believe Mormonism's commandments or Mormon extra-biblical scriptures. I don't believe the so-called Word of Wisdom, I don't believe that God sanctioned polygamy on this continent, I don't believe in wearing your so-called sacred underwear, I don't believe that God chose Joseph Smith or any of his followers to be prophets. And I'll run out of space if I continue to list all false teachings and practices of your church.
    writing_smiley.gif Besides that I might fall asleep! :yawn:
  8. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    United States
    Yes we did live with God:
    (Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

    6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Yes the spirit will return to God because that is where we came from. The Bible does not state otherwise, you made that up.
  9. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    I don't think you realize that you just immortalized sin itself in that ideology. By saying that 'satan is immortal', this immortalizes the 'mystery of iniquity'. There is no hope in that message, for in all future ages, sin and satan will exist in the theological LDS eternity.

    The angel Lucifer is a created being with flesh and nature of angels, as per 1 Cor. 15:38-41. Please take notice that angels have bodies that are celestial in nature. The texts of scripture never teach that fallen angels are aethereal non-essences, wispy fogs, but are tangible and physical beings. This is why the scripture says that Jesus did not take on the nature of angels, but rather the nature of mankind (seed of Abraham), in Heb. 2:16.

    They actually dwell in Heaven. Does not even the LDS theology acknowledge the reality and substance of the Heavenly home?

    Good Angels are called “ministering spirits” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7,14 KJB], while fallen angels are called “evil spirits” [Luke 7:21, 8:2; Acts 19:12,13 KJB], and “unclean spirits” [Matthew 10:1; Mark 1:27, 3:11, 5:13, 6:7; Luke 4:36, 6:18; Acts 5:16, 8:7; Revelation 16:13 KJB], of whom it is said that we [as Christians] “... wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Of course, each text is true and correct in what they say/teach, [though generally misunderstood by many], as any angel [good or evil] has not “flesh and blood” as we of man-kind have, that is “bodies terrestrial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB] and “of the earth, earthy” [1 Corinthians 15:57 KJB], but rather they have “celestial bodies” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB], being an “heavenly” [1 Corinthians 15:48,49; Hebrews 11:16 KJB], for God has given to each kind [angel and man], “a body as it hath pleased him” [1 Corinthians 15:38 KJB], for “[a]ll flesh is not the same flesh” [1 Corinthians 15:39 KJB], and there are “celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB].

    1 Corinthians 15:38 KJB - But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    1 Corinthians 15:39 KJB - All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB - There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    Some will attempt to say that these passages are not speaking about angels, but only about the bodies of the resurrection of the righteous. However, the two are equated:

    Matthew 22:30 KJB - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    Mark 12:25 KJB - For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

    Luke 20:35 KJB - But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

    Luke 20:36 KJB - Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    Romans 6:5 KJB - For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    1 Corinthians 15:47 KJB - The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    1 Corinthians 15:48 KJB - As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    1 Corinthians 15:49 KJB - And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    Ephesians 5:30 KJB - For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    Philippians 3:21 KJB - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Job 19:25 KJB - For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

    Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

    Job 19:27 KJB - Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

    We must be wary of adhering to the platonic or neo-platonic doctrine. Their doctrine separated the soul [[1] dust of the earth + [2] the breath of Life of God = [3] living soul/person; Genesis 2:7 KJB], through the pagan Platonic philosophy of dualism, which spiritualized away the real reward of Heaven into phantoms, aether, figments of wispy dreams, surreal mists and gaseous non-entities by teaching that at death, an 'immortal essence of self' transcended the boundaries of the evil fleshly world. By this teaching, that the body was evil and wicked, they figured that it did not matter what one did in the flesh, but merely satisfied the inner desires, for at the end, in death, the shackle of the flesh was forever left behind.
  10. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    Jesus' own body in His resurrection is a real glorified body, in which He participated in eating, speaking, touching, etc., and is the very same body that he ascended up into Heaven with, not faded into the aether nor dematerialized into vaporous nothing.

    The “stone” [Matthew 28:2; Mark 16:3,4; Luke 24:2; John 20:1 KJB] upon the tomb had to be rolled back by Gabriel, to let Jesus free. Jesus did not phase through it, He got up and walked out of the opening [Matthew 28:1-7; Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24;1-9; John 20:1-13 KJB]. Additionally, in Jesus' death there was an earthquake [Matthew 27:51 KJB] which “opened” [Matthew 27:52 KJB] many of the tombs of the martyred saints around Jerusalem, so that those martyred saints therein, could come “out” [Matthew 27:53 KJB] in their resurrection when Jesus was resurrected [1 Corinthians 15:20,23 KJB]. They did not phase through them either.

    The disciples were able to hold onto Jesus' glorified flesh, when they held Him by the feet [Matthew 28:9; John 20:17 KJB], and He drew near to two on the road to Emmaus, and walked and talked with them [Mark 16:12; Luke 24:15 KJB], and entered their house, sat down and broke bread with them [Luke 24:30,35 KJB]. Jesus verily “vanished out of their sight” [Luke 24:32 KJB], but please notice, it does not say he *poofed* into nothing. To “vanish out of … sight” is simply to be “invisible”, not incorporeal, as a mythological and paganistic 'shade'. They got up and left to go back to Jerusalem, and Jesus was with them the whole time, unseen. Jesus did not phase through a wall, nor a locked door, that first day [John 20:19 KJB], nor a week later [John 20:26 KJB]. He simply entered with them [Luke 24:32-36 KJB], and was “invisible” until He revealed Himself, even as He had been with the two earlier on the road to Emmaus and they did not recognize Him, until He showed Himself to them at their house.

    Jesus asks them to “handle” [Luke 24:38; Ephesians 5:30 KJB] Him, having “flesh and bones”, “hands and feet” [Luke 24:39,40 KJB], and He eats with the disciples [Luke 24:41-43 KJB]. Jesus even asks Thomas to put his finger and hand into the very wounds that Jesus still had [John 20:27 KJB]. He also shewed Himself at the sea of Tiberias [John 21:1-25 KJB], and also Jesus later ascends [Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:2-11; Ephesians 4:8-10; Revelation 12:5; Psalms 24:1-10 KJB] into Heaven with the “same” [Acts 1:11 KJB] glorified body, even the “form” [Daniel 3:25; Philippians 2:6, etc & Exodus 33:23 KJB] thereof. This same body, and all its descriptive parts, is seen in Heaven in Revelation 1:13-16, 2:1,18 KJB, having the glory He had before coming in humanity [John 17:5 KJB]. He went to “prepare a place” [John 14:2,3 KJB], a very real place, for those who believe unto the end.

    That Heavenly city, having precious foundations, whose builder and make is God [Hebrews 11:10 KJB], is real and will come down from Heaven above, and is filled with all manner of beauty and creation, “cherubim and seraphim, “elders”, “creatures”, stones, gold, pearls, eternal gates. We will have “crowns”, “palms”, “harps” and “white raiment”, being able to drink from the “river of water of life”, and to eat from “the tree of life” in the middle of the garden of the Heavenly Eden. There is the true Temple and true Ark of God, and His Ten Commandments. The Father Himself [and Son] rules from a very real “throne”, and a description of Him may be seen in Daniel 7:9; Matthew 10:18; Revelation 4, etc KJB.

    Satan has attempted to etherealize and vaporize the reward of God and Heaven into non-things, gaseous clouds of non-entity, incorporeal vanity, and he has highly succeeded in this, but only because God's people reject knowledge sent from God [Hosea 4:6 KJB].

    Heaven Is It For Real?, page 8 by Joe Crews -

    “It is shocking how many weak and twisted concepts of heaven people have accepted. Most folks think of it as some far off ethereal place—and that is about all the average man knows about heaven. He believes it is “up there” somewhere. Yes, it is “up there,” and we can agree with him that far ...”

    The Angels of Heaven [from Genesis to Revelation, while some things are symbolic, context determines] are always depicted as have the:

    similitude of the sons of men” [Daniel 10:16 KJB],

    the likeness of a man” [Daniel 10:16 KJB],

    like the appearance of a man” [Daniel 10:18 KJB],

    looking like “men” [Genesis 18:2 KJB],

    having that like the “hands of a man” [Ezekiel 1:8, 10:21 KJB],

    a “hand” [Ezekiel 2:9; Daniel 10:10 KJB],

    fingers of a man's hand” [Daniel 5:5 KJB],

    bear thee up in [their] hands” [Psalms 91:12 KJB] or “hands they shall bear thee up” [Matthew 4:6 KJB],

    touched” [Daniel 8:18, 9:21 KJB],

    the face of a man” [Ezekiel 1:10, 10:14, 41:19 KJB],

    fell … on their faces” [Revelation 7:11 KJB],

    countenance was like lightning” [Matthew 28:3 KJB],

    their appearance [was] like burning coals of fire, [and] like the appearance of lamps” [Ezekiel 1:13 KJB],

    young man” [Mark 16:5 KJB],

    and man-kind are “made ... a little lower than the angels” [Psalms 8:5 KJB],

    bodies” [Ezekiel 1:11,23; 1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB],

    feet” [and legs] [Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10; 2 Samuel 22:10; Psalms 18:9; Isaiah 6:2; Lamentations 3:34; Ezekiel 1:7; Daniel 10:6; Habakkuk 3:5; Zechariah 14:4; Revelation 1:5, 2:18, 10:1, 19:10, 22:8 KJB],

    sole of their feet” [Ezekiel 1:7 KJB],

    eyes” [Deuteronomy 11:12, 13:18; 2 Chronicles 16:9; Job 34:21; Psalms 11:4; Ezekiel 1:18, 10:12; Daniel 10:6; Hebrews 4:13; Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 4:6,8, 5:6, 19:12 KJB],

    do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven” [Matthew 18:10 KJB],

    breasts” [ie, upper chest/torso] [Revelation 15:6 KJB],

    voices” [Revelation 4:5, 8:5, 10:3-4, 11:15,19, 16:18 KJB],

    the voice of many angels round about the throne” [Revelation 5:11 KJB],

    sang together” [Job 38:7 KJB],

    shouted for joy” [Job 38:7 KJB],

    that “talked” [Zechariah 5:5 KJB],

    able to “Hail” [Luke 1:28 KJB],

    and have “wings” [Exodus 25:20, 37:9; 2 Samuel 22:11; 1 Kings 6:27, 8:6-7; 1 Chronicles 28:18; 2 Chronicles 3:11,13, 5:7-8; Psalms 18:10, 104:3; Isaiah 6:2; Ezekiel 1:6,8-9,11,23-25, 3:13, 10:8,12,16,19,21, 11:22; Revelation 4:8 KJB],

    fly swiftly” [Daniel 9:21 KJB],

    and being able to carry a “sword” [Genesis 3:24; Numbers 22:31; Joshua 5:13; 1 Chronicles 21:16 KJB],

    or having “a slaughter weapon in his hand” [Ezekiel 9:2 KJB],

    able to “smote” [2 Kings 19:35 KJB],

    and “cut off” [2 Chronicles 32:21 KJB],

    and “fought” [Revelation 12:7 KJB],

    make “war” [Revelation 12:7 KJB, see also 2 Kings 6:16-17 KJB],

    encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them” [Psalms 34:7 KJB],

    an hedge” [Job 1:10 KJB],

    they are strong, “that excel in strength” [Psalms 103:20 KJB],

    strengthening” [Luke 22:43 KJB],

    able to do, “that do his commandments” [Psalms 103:20 KJB],

    listening, “hearkening unto the voice of his word” [Psalms 103:20 KJB],

    or carrying a “writer's ink horn by his side” [Ezekiel 9:2 KJB],

    have “food” [Psalms 78:25 KJB],

    can be “entertained” [Hebrews 13:2 KJB],

    and “harps” [Revelation 5:8 KJB],

    live coal” [Isaiah 6:6 KJB],

    tongs” [Isaiah 6:6 KJB],

    vials” [Revelation 5:8, 15:7, 16:1, 17:1, 21:9 KJB],

    golden censer” [Revelation 8:3 KJB],

    golden reed” [Revelation 21:5 KJB],

    wearing “golden girdles” [Revelation 15:6 KJB],

    having “incense” [Revelation 8:3 KJB],

    trumpet” [Exodus 19:13,16,19, 20:18; Psalms 47:5, 150:3; Zechariah 9:14; Matthew 24:31; 1 Corinthians 15:52; Hebrews 12:19; Revelation 8:2,6,13, 9:14 KJB [consider also in the context of Jesus' voice; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 1:10, 4:1 KJB]],

    sickle” [Revelation 14:14-19 KJB],

    and even a “book” [scroll] [Exodus 32:32-33; Psalms 69:28, 139:16; Ezekiel 2:9; Daniel 12:1; Malachi 3:16; Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5, 5:1-5, 7-9, 10:2,8-10, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12,15, 21:27 KJB],

    and are able to “speak” [“said”] [Ezekiel 2:1; Acts 5:19-20 KJB] [devils/angels throughout, examples; Genesis 18 and 19; Matthew 4:1-11, 8:29; Mark 3:11; Luke 4:1-13, etc. KJB],

    devils and Satan “speaketh a lie” [John 8:44 KJB],

    tongues … of angels” [1 Corinthians 13:31 KJB],

    Paul having heard “unspeakable words” [2 Corinthians 12:4 KJB],

    sat” [Judges 6:11; Matthew 28:2 KJB],

    and are found “sitting” [John 20:12 KJB],

    being able to “stand” [1 Chronicles 21:16; Luke 1:19; Revelation 10:5 KJB],

    and “stood” [Ezekiel 9:2; Acts 1:10 KJB],

    and “all the angels stood round about the throne” [Revelation 7:11 KJB],

    seen “standing” [Numbers 22:31 KJB],

    able to “touched” [1 Kings 19:5,7 KJB],

    held “the staff that [was] in his hand” [Judges 6:21 KJB],

    ministers” [Psalms 103:21 KJB],

    minister[ed]” [Matthew 4:11; Hebrews 1:14, 8:2 KJB],

    found “ministering” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB],

    clothed with linen” [Ezekiel 9:2,3,11, 10:2,6,7; Daniel 10:5 KJB],

    stood by them in white apparel” [Acts 1:10 KJB],

    clothed in a long white garment” [Mark 16:5 KJB],

    clothed in white raiment” [Revelation 4:4 KJB],

    in white sitting” [John 20:12 KJB],

    the “four and twenty elders” having “on their heads crowns of gold” [Revelation 4:4 KJB],

    or even “clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles” [Revelation 15:6 KJB],

    and they “worship” [Exodus 34:14; Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; John 4:24; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 4:10, 19:10 KJB],

    being able to both bow, kneel and fall before the LORD, “fell before the Throne on their faces, and worhsipped God” [Revelation 7:11 KJB],

    present themselves before the Lord” [Job 1:6, 2:1 KJB],

    being able to “Bless the LORD” [Psalms 103:20-22 KJB],

    praise” [Psalms 148:2 KJB],

    and even pray and cry aloud with their mouths, “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY” [Isaiah 6:3; Revelation 4:8 KJB].

    God created the Angels as glorious beings, and they do have bodies, as Paul would say, “Celestial bodies”, for “God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him”. Just as Jesus now eternally has a “Glorious Body” [Philippians 3:21 KJB].

    Lucifer/[now satan] was the very “anointed cherub that coverth” [Ezekiel 28:14 KJB] and stood directly by the very Throne of God in Heaven [just as the imitation ones, being patterned after the heavenly ones on either side of the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant on earth] and God had dressed him [Lucifer] in precious stones and metals, “every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created” [Ezekiel 28:13 KJB] and Lucifer had once “walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire” in the “Eden the garden of God”, upon “the holy mountain of God”, being “Mount Zion” of Heaven, which “cannot be removed, [but] abideth forever”.

    Satan will be brought to “ashes” [Ezekiel 28:18; Malachi 4:3 KJB, see also the sanctuary; Psalms 73:17, 77:13 KJB] and “All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.” [Ezekiel 28:19] and “The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt be] any more.” [Ezekiel 27:36 KJB]

    The angels, like the Cherubim and Seraphim, the shining ones, are “ministering spirits” [Hebrews 1:14 KJB], called a “flaming fire” [Psalms 104:4 KJB], and “ministers a flame of fire” [Hebrews 1:7 KJB], and their “countenances” are “like lightning”, as “burning coals of fire”, and “burning lamps”, and wearing “white raiment” which are very “bright”. Even Satan can transform himself into an “angel of light” [2 Corinthians 11:14 KJB]. Does this mean that angels have no substance, no body and are merely wispy aether? Not at all. The bodies they have, are “celestial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB], and those which are good, are led by the Spirit, and are thus spiritual bodies [1 Corinthians 15:44 KJB], being in subjection to God, and are not subject to death [yet the wicked angels will be soon].
  11. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

    United States
    There is no immortal soul---
    1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    As for Satan:
    Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
    Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
  12. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    The "spirit" is God's and belongs unto Him.

    Those who die (first death) return to "dust" from where "we" came from as all of scripture teaches:

    Gen_3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    Psa_104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

    Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Notice, that Ecc. 12:7, says that the "spirit" or "breath of life" from God (Gen. 2:7) returns to God, as it is God's, and we, which are dust return to dust, and 'sleep' therein (Job 7:21, 17:16, 21:26, 40:13; Psa. 22:15,29, 30:9; Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:2, etc).

    Notice what Abraham said:

    Gen_18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

    Notice what Job said:

    Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

    Job_34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

    Notice what the Psalmist said:

    Psa_103:14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

    Notice what Solomon said:

    Ecc_3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Notice Peter:

    Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    Notice Paul:

    Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
  13. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    Mary is a disciple (follower in the common sense) of Jesus (I wasn't speaking about the disciples, 11, or the Apostles), and the context of John 20:17 is Jesus is speaking only to His disciples.

    Joh_8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.


    Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

    Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Joh 20:18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

    The children of the wicked one follow another 'god' (2 Cor. 4:4), even the 'god of this world', satan, the "Father" of lies (John 8:44).
  14. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    The Bible says:

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Eph_3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
  15. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    Wait, I thought you stated that the LDS teach that all of us are eternal immortal intelligences, which can neither be created nor destroyed. How then can "God" create that which already exists as intelligence, Lucifer or otherwise?
  16. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    United States
    I was talking about the spirit, not the body.
  17. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    Simple, take a look at Luke 3. God was the Father of Adam, and you are a descendant of Adam, and Eve is the mother of all living. Even Adam, is your 'father'. This is how the Bible uses those terms, even as Belshazzar was the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar II, the Bible still calls Nebuchadnezzar II the "father" of Belshazzar.
  18. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
    Mankind is "dust" + "breath of life of God" = "living soul (creature)". Take away either of the first two, and mankind becomes a dead soul/creature.
  19. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    United States
    How can an egg become a chicken? How does a caterpillar become a butterfly? We start out as intelligences and then become spirits, then resurrected beings, it is a process.
  20. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

    United States
    Rather the spirit + the body = the soul. At death the body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God.