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The washing of the feet is a sacred ordinance so I will not say much about it, but you can read this: Washing of Feet
No it's just a long answer like that is like a filibuster. We're having a simple dialog. If I went off and posted 3 pages (a bit of an exaggeration), it's kind of defensive, yeah.
It's really very simple. Isaiah 43:10 says no gods have or every will be formed and there is one God. It seems this one verse is really all I need to answer any number of your pages. But if you could tell me in simple terms what you think this means that would help.
Thank you for the article, but it only speaks of Joseph Smith and some others in the past.The washing of the feet is a sacred ordinance so I will not say much about it, but you can read this: Washing of Feet
I have written thousands of pages in 85 days. It is not so hard, nor difficult, especially having access to resources such as the KJB, and other historical materials, as Joseph Smith had, and as I have.No, you could not write a book like the Book of Mormon in 85 days.
So the story goes.Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon in 85 days to scribes.
This is not historically accurate, but I am not here to debate the point of how the BoM came to be. My question, was specific to 1 Cor. 15:29 and evidence from scripture (KJB). Where are the two or three witnesses from it, as LDS sources say I need to have?He had no written materials with him to help him with the work either.
This is simply not so. It is all through the OT:When the Old Testament was written long before Christ's birth there was only one verse that said love thy neighbor as thyself:
(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:18)
18 ¶ Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
It is all over the OT, not merely one time, and said in differing ways.However, even though it was only in the Old Testament one time it was still a valid commandment.
Okay, seeing the point, do you have any further witnesses in the OT or NT on the LDS doctrine of 1 Cor. 15:29?I do see your point. That is why prayer is so important as is repentance. We can repent and pray for guidance in our lives. God helps those who turn to Him.
Read this section:@HeartenedHeart -
LDS - LDS folk, a question for you
Long posts, like #132, are unlikely to be read by most people due simply to how long they are; I'm used to reading corporate financial filings and I was still unconsciously glossing over things.
What, specifically, was the gist of what you were trying to say there?
Not so (bara), also I never cited philosophers. I cited scripture, which speaks plainly in Hebrew or English.
atomGod spake that which came from His mind, (which is not nothing).
Again, why do you have to doubt what scripture plainly states and re-work it to suit your ideology? You do not see that you do this, neither the danger of it?
Gravity, is a word used to describe a phenomena, not that that is an actual thing (matter).
The 'habital zone', or 'goldielocks' expressions, is the ID movements terms and is really non-sequitur to the matter of 'creation'. God's word says:
What is "Earth' made of? It is made of 'earth' ...
Again, LDS have an infinite regress here, as elsewhere, for where did the 'atoms', 'molecules' come from?
Belief must be validated by scripture, for belief to be true, in harmony with what God stated. Let God be true and every man a ...
Re-citing Gen. 1:1-8 is not furthering this line of discussion, for the important verses are vs 1 and 2.
Other (corrupt) English translations are a distortion to what the Hebrew says, as the word used means to be 'set up', in that context, not created, made into existence, etc:
His glorious form, His glorious body, as we see throughout the scripture (Jhn. 17:5; Phil. 2:6, 3:21, etc).
I deny this with all my heart. I have not always existed. I am finite, having beginning. I am not "I AM" (always existing). I came to be. I do not inherently have eternal/everlasting life. I am not Life, I was given life by JEHOVAH Elohiym who is Life.
You speak the same words as the serpent, yet in another form, and are unaware of what you do or say, nor of what it means to the Everlasting Gospel itself.
Spirit deals with 'heart/mind' and the 'breath' also, as many examples could be cited. It doesn't mean that we always existed.
God always existed. God is I AM. Not we, for we 'came to be' by the will of I AM.
Christians are brothers of Jesus through adoption.
Lucifer was once the fellow minister(ing angel) of 'Jesus' (who was His superior (infinitely so), being Michael). The Son of God eternally existed (Jhn 1:1, etc), but not so with Lucifer (though he would like to posit the idea otherwise, Eze. 28:13,15).
The Nature of Divinity is uncreated and uncreatable.
Lucifers nature is created, and therefore, destructible.
Are angels called the 'sons of God' in certain places in scripture, 'Yes', but this is not equating them with the same standing as the original eternal Son of God.
"May not" have? I definitely did not and stated so. This is given to be doubly clear.You may not have but I said that the idea of "matter from nothing"
Which lexicons do you have in evidence of your claim that it cannot ever mean 'from nothing'? I acknowledge the multiple definitions and uses, which includes also 'from nothing', and 'from something'.had to have come from 2nd, and 3rd century philosophers, because the definition of "bara" does not suggest "matter from nothing"
I did not merely cite "1 scripture". I cited numerous:and your 1 scripture from Hebrews even uses the word "framed", which does not mean "from nothing".
I just demonstrated that they (molecules) do appear. See above.The idea of "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear", sounds exactly like, for instance; the mountains which appear, are made up of the dirt and rock which do appear, but the atoms and molecules which really make them up, do not appear.
I am not quoting from any such source. Why do you insist upon straw-manning what I said, and ad-libbing to it?Which 2nd or 3rd century philosopher or church father said this?
Not really, see Phil. 2:6 about the "mind" (for we have the mind of Christ), and we are given instruction about what was on/in that mind. In Jer. 19:5, 32:35, we also see what was not in God's mind. We can know the expressed will of God.You would be hard pressed to find a scripture that would tell us what makes up God's mind.
From where did the 'atoms and molecules' come from? The LDS theology makes those things eternal, while 'gods' must come into existence. You have matter (created) and God (Creator) inverted.I do believe that when God said, Let there be light, existing atoms and molecules heard his voice and obeyed, and light was created.
Oh yes, and I also heard that such things come into existence by God, and are not of themselves eternally existing, for only God is eternally existing, the, "I AM".Have you ever heard that atoms and molecules can hear the word of God and obey?
Jesus walked on water, by Faith. Jesus calmed the weather by His creative Word, for all elements are under His control, having made those elements.Interesting concept. How do you think Jesus walked on water. How do you think that Jesus calmed the weather? etc. etc., etc., etc., etc.
Pro. 8.I did not rework anything, I explained how God hung the earth in space.
Besides, who said God hung the earth on nothing? Did he know all the tools that God had at his disposal to hang the earth exactly where he wanted it to be?
We are not discussing 'gravity', but the definition of creation.You are right, it is at least one of the phenomena that God uses to hang the earth where he wishes
This is still non-sequitur to the matter at hand.goldielocks is a term that expesses the idea that a superior being (God) knew exactly what he was doing when he hung the earth where he did. A few degrees further away or toward the sun, and you would not have the earth with people on it. His plan was not to just have an earth, it was to people that earth, hence an earth in the goldielocks position.
I am interested in the 'etc., etc., etc.' that you refer to. How far regressive does that go? Is it an infinite regress as I stated, and am asking you?How could I possibly argue with this statement. Except, I am sure you know about atoms and molecules etc., etc., etc.
I have been saying this the whole time, and since God (and His word) is uncreated, and molecules are created, they are not God, neither everlasting, but perishable:The only thing from scripture that we know has existed from everlasting is God.
The Bible says, "divine nature".Tell me what the scriptures say He is made of.
I know you believe that, and yet you stated above:We believe, and I am sure you do not, and that is OK too, that matter is not created and has existed forever too.
You are correct, "I (you)" cannot create, neither destroy it, and that is because you and I are not God, we are created, God is uncreated Creator. God can and did bring things into existence, and can wipe them from existence, as though they had not been. Case in point, sin, itself.The reason we believe that, is because you cannot destroy it.
You and I cannot. God can. We are not God (in spite of the contrary claims being made). The two things are not equal, in that though we cannot, does not negate God from so doing as God has and will do.You can only change it's form. If you cannot destroy it, then you can never create it in the first place.
It contains the necessary knowledge for salvation (2 Tim. 3:16-17), and I never said anything else. Creation is also a second book to the Bible, and must be subject to it however.This might sound blasphemous to you, but the bible does not contain the totality of knowledge that exists in the world.
I am bound to test all things by it (Isa. 8:20; Acts 17:11, etc), including those claiming the gift of prophecy/prohethood (1 Cor. 14:32; 1 Thes. 5:21; etc.).I am not bound to by the bible.
Did you know that God told us the end, from the beginning? Isa. 46:9-10:In the scope of all that has been done and said since the beginning of the world, the bible contains about 1/100000000000000 of what happened, and even the word of God.
Only if you want to know if the belief is true:So no, I do not have to run things past the bible to have a belief in something.
I have no such problem, as I test all things by the scriptures, as commanded to. My beliefs are always tested by what God's word (in English, KJB) says. I also have the lesser light which God sent, and that which is in creation, but even both of these are to be tested by scripture (KJB).It is nice when what I believe is spoken of in the bible. You actually run into the same problem, you just won't admit it.
I never said vs 1 was "enough". Why do you keep adding to what I say, and making me to say that which I did not? I cited numerous other verses in addition to Gen. 1:1, and yet Gen. 1:1 is perfectly clear.The reason I went to 8 was because that ended day 2. Why was that important. Because you seem to think because God said in 1 that he created the heavens and the earth, that that was enough said about the earth. However, you must remember it says in 1 he created the "heavens" and the "earth". Then in 2 he says the earth was void and dark, but does not say that he created it or said for it to be like he does with the "heavens". For in 7-8 he describes how he created the "heavens" in day 2. What day did he describe the creation of "earth". He doesn't, because it already existed, and he just called forth the existing material by his word. Then on day 1 created light for the earth. Day 2, Day 3 and so forth.
Remember create does not mean "make something out of nothing".
There are other languages which are also the Word of God, but in matters of English, it is the KJB. God's word is not bound to English.So you believe that all other versions of the bible are corrupt except the KJV?
Just consider the evidence provided to you in the link. Then make a judgment based upon the evidence therein.Well, at least in this instant, it serves your purpose.
Spiritual body. Please take note, that a "spiritual body" is not "spirit body" which is a contradiction in terms according to scripture:What glorious body did he have before the incarnation? Was it a body of spirit, or did it have flesh and bone?
I just cited verses previous which shows that I am not made up of indestructible atoms, and yet I will cite more:Sorry, you are made up of indestructible atoms and molecules, you have always existed.
That is not what scripture states:Your intelligence (your mind and will) can not be created or destroyed.
The Spirit of God cannot be. But our 'breath' is a gift from God breathed into us (Gen. 2:7), and can be taken back unto Himself:Spirit cannot be created or destroyed.
I deny this with all my heart. No. I am created, a finite being. The Son of the Father, existed eternally with the Father, John 1:1, etc. I was not "in the beginning" "with" God.You are made of the same infinite material that God and Jesus are made of
Again, the Bible (KJB) says that I am a creature (2 Cor. 5:17, etc), not the Creator.that is why you are god in embryo.
To be like God in character, yes, not in nature of eternality, Deity.Now, through your experience as the ages roll by, you will have the opportunity to be like God.
A tree has no mind/heart. It is food (Gen. 1:26-28).Not so for a tree.
A tree has no intelligence whatsoever. A tree is without heart/mind. It is a food source, not a source of intelligence.Their intelligence is to weak to be like God.
For ever and ever is from the given 'now' unto the future, and does not say anything about the past. Eternality does, and the Bible says nothing of my existing in the eternal past, though as a Christian I have the opportunity to exist from this point and forever by the grace of God.But your intelligence is strong and your spirit is forever and ever.
Made in the likeness and image of God does not grant me to have existed eternally. In fact, the very word, "made" denies eternality, for God cannot be "made", only that which is creation can be.You were made in the image of God
No, a tree does not have intelligence. It has no mind. It is a replicating food source as stated., a tree was made in the image of a tree. It all has to do with the intelligence of both. You do believe that a tree has intelligence?
No, a tree is a tree, because that is what God created it to be.A tree is a tree because of its level of intelligence.
No, a dog is a dog because that is what God created it to be, and is of a differing nature than other creatures, as per 1 Corinthians 15:39-40.A dog is a dog, because of their level of intelligence.
No, I am what God made me to be of the race of mankind, after their kind, and not another kind, for angels are of superior intellect than mankind and of a differing kind:You are a human being because of your superior level of intelligence.
Deity (Jesus) is all-wise:The most intelligent of all the children of God is Jesus Christ.
The Son of the Father at no point 'received' Godhood in eternity past. He always was in the "form of God" (Phil 2:6), even the "express image" (Heb. 1:3) of His Father's person (Job 13:8), and was eternally with His Father (John 1:1), and "was God" (person of the Son). See again Pro. 8, for He was by the side of the Father, as one brought up with Him.That is why he has been sinless from the beginning, and was receive Godhood before this world was even created.
God is intellegence, and thus that intelligence has always existed. From "everlasting to everlasting".We have very little information from the bible about intelligence and spirit and whether it has existed forever or not, you could not tell me from the scriptures.
What do you mean "When?" (did we come to be?)When?
Yes, that is what I stated.Adoption is another thing altogether. Here on earth we are adopted into the household of faith. Jesus Christ is the head of that household.
I am not arguing that Jesus and the Christian are not 'brethren;', for Scripture states we surely are (by adoption), see Hebrews 2.But he himself says that he and you and I were his brothers when he told Mary this important information at the time of he saw her right after his resurrection.
I am not denying that.See John 20:17. He says "he ascends to his Father and our Father". How is God the Father our Father. He is the Father of our spirits, like I have been talking about.
I am not denying that.(See Hebrews 12:9)
Lots of other scriptures for that, but running out of time.
All angels were without sin, before Lucifer sinned. Lucifer is the originator of the mystery of iniquity.I believe he was a ministering angel for God the Father, being very close to him. But between lucifer and God was Jesus, his brother, his perfect and sinless brother
That is a misunderstanding of "righteousness". Before the sin of Lucifer, all was in perfect harmony, all was righteousness., whom he began to hate because of his sinlessness and because the Father loved him. lucifer could not overtake him in righteousness
Yes, that is what Rev. 12 states, as elsewhere., so he tried to take over heaven with a war.
Yes, that is what Rev. 12 and other places state.He lost
That is not quite accurate. He came to earth, not was banished here. The only reason he stayed here, is because he could not convince the other unfallen worlds to follow him, but he convinced Eve and gained this world as his foothold.and was banned to the earth.
True.His first recorded appearance on earth was in the garden of Eden.
Yes and no. Ultimately lost, though gained a small and temporary victory.He lost there too.
Yes, at one point before Lucifer sinned he was "perfect" (Eze. 28:15). That does not make him (Lucifer) Deity in any way, for his nature was not the nature of Deity, and was never "in the form of God" as The Son of the Father eternally had been.But as you can see, at one time lucifer was perfect like Jesus and God love him too.
That is not true. God loves even Lucifer, but Lucifer refuses to repent. Lucifer was a long time, "ages and ages", in the presence of God, and so God has close ties to His creature.But that changed and now satan is not loved any more
In a sense, yes, but not as you mean it, for Satan will cease to exist, as cited previously:and will be out of the presence of God for eternity
Root and branches will perish in the flames, Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:16,18,19, etc.like 1/3 of our spirit brothers and sisters who followed him.
Not so. The Bible explicitly says that Lucifer (along with his intelligence, not merely angelic nature) was "created" (Eze. 28:13,15).Lucifer also has his own intelligence and spirit (uncreated).
He will always be outside the presence of God for eternity, but he is immortal and cannot not be destroyed, ever.
The Bible (KJB) says otherwise (1 Cor. 15:39-41; Heb. 2:16, etc.We equate them with exactly the same nature as Jesus.
Mankind is a new creation, different than from all other creation. For mankind can "be fruitful", and "multiply" and "replenish (fill) the earth", while angelic beings cannot.Jesus was the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. But there were billions of sons and daughters of God in the spirit.
That is a distortion of those texts, and is similar to how the WTS incorrectly interpret those verses.Jesus was the first spirit child of God (Colossians 1:15, and Revelations 3:14).
The Son of the Father always existed, John 1:1, Pro. 8, etc. All creation (you and I, and Lucifer, etc) were created by Jesus Christ (Eph, 3:9 ; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2, etc).We and lucifer came later.
Read the scriptures, it does not say that the Son of the Father was created, neither begotten through sexual intimacy (the word "begotten' deals with several things, eternal nature, and resurrection). The scripture states "a body (of mankind's flesh)" was "prepared" for the Son of the Father. The Son of the Father also did not give up His previous nature, but instead added the second nature to the first, Phil 2:6-8.Jesus was also the only spirit child that was begotten by God the Father in the flesh.
That is Pagan mythology being brought into the scriptures, it is Zeus, it is Poseidon, it is Hades, etc.Mary was his mortal mother, and God the Father was his mortal Father.
Yet you tell me that those same 'mortal fathers' had eternal existence, and will always be, and cannot be destroyed, and are thus eternal immortal intelligences. You have a very serious contradiction on your hands there.You and I had mortal fathers and mothers. Big difference.
Which lexicons do you have in evidence of your claim that it cannot ever mean 'from nothing'? I acknowledge the multiple definitions and uses, which includes also 'from nothing', and 'from something'.
The word "framed" means brought to perfect, as Gen. 2:1-3 show. That word is in the context of "not made of things which do appear".
Molecules may be seen upon specialized microscopes and thus indeed do "appear" - molecules under the microscope - Google Search
In Genesis, "God said ...", and thus, "... he spake, and it was ..." (Psa. 33:9)., see also Pro. 8.
Again, we are all spirit offspring of God the Father and this is how we are brothers with Jesus. It is Jesus that teaches us this principle in John 20:17, and the writer of teaches this important principle again in Acts 17:28-29.Mormonism:
Jesus is referred to as "the only begotten Son is the flesh" because all are sons (& daughters) of the Father & one of his wives spiritually, but Jesus is the only one who is also of the Father's flesh.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
From an LDS source:
Jesus explained how He is both the Father and the Son to the brother of Jared as follows: “Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son.
In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters” (Ether 3:14). By virtue of His Atonement the Savior has the power and the authority to redeem mankind, and those who are redeemed are referred to as His sons and daughters. We are adopted into His family and become His. The Apostle Paul understood the doctrine of divine adoption (see Romans 8:15; Ephesians 1:5). Paul taught the Galatian Saints:
“Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
“To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
“Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ” (Galatians 4:3–7).
Adoption and Atonement: Becoming Sons and Daughters of Christ | Religious Studies Center
Again, we are all spirit offspring of God the Father and this is how we are brothers with Jesus. It is Jesus that teaches us this principle in John 20:17, and the writer of teaches this important principle again in Acts 17:28-29.
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