LDS LDS folk, a question for you

HeartenedHeart

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Create does not mean making something out of nothing. Religions used to say that the earth was the center of the universe because that is the way they interpreted the Bible. Their interpretation was wrong and science shows that yours is also wrong also. Logically if nothing existed before God then God did not exist either because God is something.

Created is the same as made is the same as formed, here is the parallelism:

Isa. 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Notice the last three, which repeat and define each other.

The Bible says that God hung the earth upon nothing:

Job. 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

The Bible says that the earth did not always exist, neither the matter to which it is now made of:

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Jesus existed before anything that was made:

Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

For it was not "something" that existed eternally, but "someones". This is the difference.

God (JEHOVAH Elohiym) is at the center of all things, see Rev. for all things surround His throne, they compass the throne, and everything circles the throne of Deity, and His throne (real Ark in Heaven) is in the 3rd Heaven, and the earth is His footstool (copy ark on earth), and thus we are very near the center of all things, close to the heart of God.

Becareful with redshift and hubble so-called 'constants', as there is a lot of error therein.



 
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mmksparbud

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They still used the word Gods: Psalm 82:1 Hebrew Text Analysis

No, the word used is
Elohiym: (masc.: אלוהים / e'lo'him) MT: POWER~s RMT: Powers. Strong's: #0430


Etymology of the name Elohim

'Elohim' is a plural word, which is peculiar because God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4). Still, the singular form of the word Elohim is Eloah (אלה), and that form is used frequently in the Bible as well. In between these sits the construct form, that is: the plural form without the final ם (mem), or אלהי, Elohai, and indicative of a rudimentary genitive: 'Elohim of' or 'God of' or 'gods of'.

The etymology of both these terms is generally deemed uncertain but most likely they come from a root אלה ('lh), which probably had to do either with being strong or else with leading (perhaps not unlike the verb אול II, 'wl II):


"The root אלה ('lh I) is the assumed root of the words אל (El), אלה (Eloah) and אלהים (Elohim). That is, if these words come from the same root in the first place — but if they do then that root would like אלה ('lh).

But whatever the etymology might be, in the Bible the words El and Elohim are most often associated with might or power. They are most often applied to God, but also to manufactured idols or tribal deities (Genesis 31:30, 35:4, Exodus 32:4, Daniel 5:23), powerful men (for אל ('el): Ezekiel 31:11, 32:21 Job 41:17, 2 Kings 24:15, Isaiah 9:6. And sometimes our word אל ('el) means power directly, such as in Proverbs 3:27, Micah 2:1, Deuteronomy 28:32, Nehemiah 5:5 and Genesis 31:29: יש־לאל ידי (ys-l'l ydy), meaning "it is according to the power of my hand". 1 Samuel 14:15 speaks of a 'mighty' (אלהים) earthquake, and in 1 Samuel 28:13, the witch of En-dor sees power (אלהים) arise from the earth. The prophet Jonah observed that Nineveh was a great and mighty (אלהים) city (Jonah 3:3).

The word אלהים ('elohim) is a plural word but in Hebrew plural is often deployed to express reverence or emphasis (comparable to English expressions such as "very, very good" or 'the band, Elwood, the band!'). It obviously describes a singular entity when it refers to the one and only Creator, but in contexts such as Exodus 32:1, where the people ask Aaron to make them אלהים, this word clearly refers to a singular item: a god or cluster of idols and their associated theology.

The word אלה ('eloah), also denoting God, appears to be a forced singular form derived from the curious plural word אלהים ('elohim) that's being used as a singular word anyway. The word אלה ('eloah) occurs mostly in the older parts of the Bible, and then again in the youngest parts, when the people under Ezra began to desire that old time religion, and associated phraseology."

The amazing name Elohim: meaning and etymology
 
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Ironhold

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Can we speak about your "personal studies"? Would you list the top 5 things that you personally studied that brought about your remaining?

To put it simply, there are mainline Christians who feel it their duty to "save" anyone who doesn't believe as they do. As such, they'll blindly charge forward with attempting to witness, and anyone who doesn't hop to is an "enemy" to be overcome.

As far as the top things go...

It was the realization that while I'd gone out of my way to study as much material as possible - even anti-Mormon literature - in order to educate myself and find all perspectives, some of the people who were coming after me (yes, at one point I had an entire counter-cult ministry viewing me as their own personal bogeyman) couldn't even be bothered to read their Bibles from cover-to-cover.

I for one find that degree of ignorance a direct insult to Heavenly Father himself.
 
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HeartenedHeart

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To put it simply, there are mainline Christians
Definitely does not fit me. :) Nothing mainline about me.

who feel it their duty to "save" anyone who doesn't believe as they do.
Well, I must admit there is a reason that is so, since if they, who do that truly, felt that they had truth, I too would desire that all would share in it. I desire truth, and any truth I have I like to share, but I hope I do not share anything in a wrong manner.

As such, they'll blindly charge forward with attempting to witness, and anyone who doesn't hop to is an "enemy" to be overcome.
Well, the last thing I want to do is anything 'blindly'. I do want to speak with you, and others, and talk things out in a rational, peacable (as much as is possible), and charitable way, while not neglecting any duty to share things in seriousness without being harsh, cold, rude, and unChristlike.

If you do not mind continuing with me, feel free to ask of me if you desire, I do not mind.

I might ask some tough questions, and you might ask some tough questions, but that's ok. I do not mind persons asking about what I believe, practice, know, etc.

As far as the top things go...

It was the realization that while I'd gone out of my way to study as much material as possible - even anti-Mormon literature - in order to educate myself and find all perspectives, some of the people who were coming after me (yes, at one point I had an entire counter-cult ministry viewing me as their own personal bogeyman) couldn't even be bothered to read their Bibles from cover-to-cover.
Well, may you have rest, as I am not out to paint you as anything, and I have read my King James from cover to cover and study it, and pray and talk to God about that which is written in it. Did you want to look at some things in the Bible with me?

Any topic is fine, though I still have some questions that are specific. I am interested in you as an individual thinking feeling person, not a theology project. :)

I for one find that degree of ignorance a direct insult to Heavenly Father himself.
Here I can agree with you in that matter insult to God the Father in Heaven, who has done so much to give us His words in such a format as the Bible.

I find that persons who claim to be Christians, and know little of their Bible, no matter their affiliation, are not following the counsel in the Bible about being studied, learned, and ready to give an answer and so on.

If you do not mind, How long have you been LDS (I know that might give your age), but only answer if you choose to do. I am just curious.

What do you think is the strongest positive that comes across to you in regards the LDS as a whole?
 
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He is the way

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Thank, but I was more interested in your personal case, though I understand you are now one flesh.

Have you personally investigated what you believe, and if so, how did you test that belief, in other words what was the final authority to test by? Same question for your wife, if she is available and desires to also reply in your reply.

Ok, could you be more specific, as to which "commandments" you are to keep?, please be specific as you are able.

"[A]ll of the keys"? How many keys are there, and what are they, could you be more specific in their identification and function?

What about:

Rev. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Doesn't Jesus have those keys?

What of the following key:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

That 'angel' (messenger) is again Jesus, having that Key, having taken it from the one in Rev. 9.

When you say "prophet" are you referring only to Joseph Smith, or to the current president of the LDS or both and all in between?

Ok, but what do you specifically know about it from the book of Revelation?

Wouldn't it be important to know and understand one of the greatest threatenings of God in regards those things found in Rev. 13 and 14:9-11?

Okay I went through that, but it doesn't say which commandments at least in the section you quoted. Could you be more specific? Which transgression of which commandments is sin?

Is there a Bible verse you could refer to that defines sin as the LDS understand it?
1. In my case, the more I studied the scriptures, the more I realized that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints was God's true church. We follow many of the ordinances mentioned in the Bible such as baptism for the dead.

2. While it is true that we believe in keeping all of God's commandments, we also believe:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 58:26 - 33)

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.
30 Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments?
31 Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled?
32 I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.
33 Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above.

3. Okay you got me there. The prophet has all of the keys necessary to fulfill his calling here on the earth. He does not have all of the keys that Jesus has, but he has the keys that Peter had. He is able to bind on earth and in heaven.

4. I am not going to share my personal beliefs on this matter here.

5. I covered that on 2.
 
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Ironhold

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Well, the last thing I want to do is anything 'blindly'. I do want to speak with you, and others, and talk things out in a rational, peacable (as much as is possible), and charitable way, while not neglecting any duty to share things in seriousness without being harsh, cold, rude, and unChristlike.

In 1997, Carl Mosser & Paul Owens were graduate students at an "Evangelical" seminary whose name escapes me at the moment.

For their master's thesis, they decided to examine pro- and anti-Mormon literature to see how they compared.

A copy of their paper is mirrored here: Mormon Apologetic Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect

As the pair discovered, the anti-Mormon material they examined was, quite simply, lazy in nature. It was a mix of arguments taken from other authors combined with that author's personal take on things and a fair mix of personal invective to go with it. Indeed, pretty much all of the arguments in those books had long since been either answered outright or tabled for lack of evidence in either direction.

Problem is, 22 years later and nothing's changed. The vast majority of anti-Mormon material out there - including material put out by various religious groups - crumbles under scrutiny. Yet far too many ministers and pundits are out there telling people "read this one publication and you'll literally know all that you need to know".

These people who listen do indeed read that one work, think they know everything, and proceed to lose against anyone who's done any degree of homework.

Of course, these individuals don't understand that they've been given bad information and should have done their own investigations. All they know is that they couldn't stand against a "cultist" and have lost.

I've seen people suffer mental breakdowns and even full-on psychotic episodes over this.

That's how bad it is out there.

If you do not mind continuing with me, feel free to ask of me if you desire, I do not mind.

If you do not mind, How long have you been LDS (I know that might give your age), but only answer if you choose to do. I am just curious.

I'm 35.

What do you think is the strongest positive that comes across to you in regards the LDS as a whole?

Contrary to what people may think, the church is premised on people becoming better. It's understood that you're supposed to be learning and growing as you go along, and it's expected that you'll find your own pace.
 
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Peter1000

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It is my understanding that those folks believe that God the Father attained that status by becoming really good on a planet in outer space, that the other persons of God joined him the same way, and that you and I can become gods if we're good Mormons. In other words, it's not heresy to them, but it is to the Bible's understanding that God is one God in three Persons (see the Gospel of John).

Read the following scripture, and I am sure you have never read it the way I read it, but to me it makes perfect sense. See the bolded.
John 5:17-20 King James Version (KJV)
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

vs 19 Jesus can only do those things that he seeth his Father do. Whatever the Father does, he does likewise. What and when did the Father do the things that Jesus seeth Him do, and now does himself?

vs 20 The Father showed Jesus what He did, (what is God showing Jesus?), and the Son is doing those same things in his ministry.

vs 17 that is why the Father worketh and Jesus worketh (the same things as the Father did)

vs 18 that is why Jesus felt no problem being equal to God because he did the same things that he saw his Father do. The interesting thing is that Jesus's Father is exactly the same person as our Father.
(See John 20:17)

Conclusion: God the Father, the Father of Jesus and all mortal men, did the same things as Jesus.
When and where He did these things is not known, but we do know that He showed Jesus what He did and whatever He did, Jesus does the same things. Therefore we conclude that God the Father also came to an earth as a man and did the same things that Jesus did on our earth. Remember, Jesus could do nothing except what he saw his Father do. That he did also.

We, through Jesus can be joint-heirs of all that the Father has. We can only do that if we are like the Father and the Son and can withstand their power and glory as we sit on their thrones and be glorified together. (Romans 8:17)
 
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Create does not mean making something out of nothing. Religions used to say that the earth was the center of the universe because that is the way they interpreted the Bible. Their interpretation was wrong and science shows that yours is also wrong also. Logically if nothing existed before God then God did not exist either because God is something.
The scripture says all things were created "through" Christ. Meaning Christ was never created and "no thing" aka "nothing" existed prior to Christ.
 
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Create does not mean making something out of nothing. Religions used to say that the earth was the center of the universe because that is the way they interpreted the Bible. Their interpretation was wrong and science shows that yours is also wrong also. Logically if nothing existed before God then God did not exist either because God is something.
The scripture says all things were created "through" Christ. Meaning Christ was never created and "no thing" aka "nothing" existed prior to Christ.
 
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He is the way

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The Bible does not use the word create to mean make something out of nothing. That is a man made notion. God created man, but it was not out of nothing. It works better if you understand how the word created is used in the Bible. God formed man out of the dust of the earth.
(Old Testament | Genesis 1:27)

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Old Testament | Genesis 2:7)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

While the earth is suspended in space (nothing), it is not made out of nothing.
 
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Peter1000

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For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. (Colossians 1:16)

This passage very explicitly says that "All things have been created through him and for him". That means ALL, including matter. Thus, at some point, the universe was void of matter until Christ created it. To say otherwise is to say that "all things have been created through him and for him" is a false.
You are getting caught up in the word "create". The Hebrew word for the English word "create" is "bara", which means to create, shape, or form. The Nicean fathers in the 4th century decided that the create part meant "create something from nothing" to add luster to an already all-powerful God. But the word "bara" does not assign "to create", the ability to create something out of nothing.

A person can create a masterpiece from a lump of clay. God created man from a lump of clay.

Genesis 2:4 says that God both created and made the heavens and the earth. So which one was it?

The Church of Jesus Christ believes God took existing material and created this earth and all things under and over the earth.
 
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Calminian

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You are getting caught up in the word "create". The Hebrew word for the English word "create" is "bara", which means to create, shape, or form. The Nicean fathers in the 4th century decided that the create part meant "create something from nothing" to add luster to an already all-powerful God. But the word "bara" does not assign "to create", the ability to create something out of nothing.

A person can create a masterpiece from a lump of clay. God created man from a lump of clay.

Genesis 2:4 says that God both created and made the heavens and the earth. So which one was it?

The Church of Jesus Christ believes God took existing material and created this earth and all things under and over the earth.

bara' is an interesting verb. It's only used of God, and often does refer to creation from nothing. The early Nicean fathers can't decide what words mean they can merely discover what the text says in context, and context is pretty clear in Genesis 1:1-2. This is creation from nothing.

And yes the LDS (mormons) do compromise on this issue and side with pagan beliefs about origins which put creation after existing chaos. That's mainly to keep their polytheism in tact. But Scripture clearly says God formed the substance of the earth in the very first 2 verses of the Bible. That's what sets it apart from paganism. Creation > substance, not substance > creation. This is not really a matter of interpretation, but rather trust. Do you and can you trust what Scripture explicitly states?
 
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You are getting caught up in the word "create". The Hebrew word for the English word "create" is "bara", which means to create, shape, or form. The Nicean fathers in the 4th century decided that the create part meant "create something from nothing" to add luster to an already all-powerful God. But the word "bara" does not assign "to create", the ability to create something out of nothing.

A person can create a masterpiece from a lump of clay. God created man from a lump of clay.

Genesis 2:4 says that God both created and made the heavens and the earth. So which one was it?

The Church of Jesus Christ believes God took existing material and created this earth and all things under and over the earth.
If Christ did not create, who did? It would have to be something or someone more powerful than God. Furthermore, it would have to preexist God. But how does that fit with Jesus being the "Alpha and Omega"?
 
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HeartenedHeart

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1. In my case, the more I studied the scriptures, the more I realized that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints was God's true church. We follow many of the ordinances mentioned in the Bible such as baptism for the dead.
How many verses do you have from the Bible (KJB) on 'baptism for the dead'?

How many verses are required to teach a doctrine within your understanding, as from my reading of scripture, it always requires 2-3 witnesses from the OT, and even from the NT.

2. While it is true that we believe in keeping all of God's commandments, we also believe:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 58:26 - 33)

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
29 But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned.
30 Who am I that made man, saith the Lord, that will hold him guiltless that obeys not my commandments?
31 Who am I, saith the Lord, that have promised and have not fulfilled?
32 I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.
33 Then they say in their hearts: This is not the work of the Lord, for his promises are not fulfilled. But wo unto such, for their reward lurketh beneath, and not from above.
Yes, but what commandments specifically? Are you referring to the Ten Commandments (Exo. 20:1-17)? Are you referring to something else?

For instance, do you keep the commandments on diet, between the distinction God gave for clean and unclean (as Noah had, Gen. 7:2,8, 8:20), found in Lev. 11 and Deut. 14, as Peter did even in the NT, Acts 10-11, and in the matter of not eating anything with blood in it, Acts 15?

For instance, do you keep the commandments on footwashing, as in John 13:5-17 when partaking of the Lord's supper?

3. Okay you got me there.
Well, it wasn't meant to be a 'gotcha', I was just asking for more details, as I knew about those keys in the Bible. I know of other keys therein besides those.

The prophet has all of the keys necessary to fulfill his calling here on the earth.
Okay, could you be more detailed about 'those' keys? What are they and what are their functions? I understand the keys that Jesus had, as already mentioned and their function, as described by scripture (KJB). This is why I am asking about the keys you mentioned. I would like to know.

He does not have all of the keys that Jesus has, but he has the keys that Peter had. He is able to bind on earth and in heaven.
Okay, I understand what you mean by this, but was Peter the only one given those 'keys'? If Peter had those keys, how did Joseph Smith get those keys? If persons more than Peter had those keys, same question, and does no one else now have those keys? Where are the 'keys' now, and who has them, and are they still serving the same functions?

So, by saying, I assume you disavow the Roman Catholic Churches claim of the same?

Also, would you disavow any other group to those 'keys'?

4. I am not going to share my personal beliefs on this matter here.
Was this in reference to the Mark of the Beast and Revelation question, I was trying to follow your reply. If so, I did not mean any offense, it is just that this subject is important to me, and interesting, as I want to not be in the group that those texts Rev. 14:8,9-11 speak about, but rather be in the group that Rev. 14:6-7,12, speaks about.

5. I covered that on 2.
You did give me material about 'sin', but it didn't define it specifically. Is there a more clear definition you could give?
 
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HeartenedHeart

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...The Church of Jesus Christ believes God took existing material and created this earth and all things under and over the earth.
Would you say, then, that the LDS doctrine teaches eternally existing matter, while 'gods' are made and have to come into existence from an infinite regress of 'gods' before the next (though I think there is an LDS doctrine of eternal essences, but even if so, that would not be the same as the beings themselves, correct?, I always look for correction if necessary)?

What this seems to imply, if I understood your response correctly, is that matter never comes into existence from nothing, but always is, only 'shaped', or 'ordered'., while 'gods' come into existence at some point (even though there are what LDS call eternal essences)?

Looking to see if I understood the response correctly, and what is taught correctly. I do not desire to misrepresent anyone's doctrine (especially not on purpose).
 
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HeartenedHeart

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The Bible does not use the word create to mean make something out of nothing. That is a man made notion. God created man, but it was not out of nothing. It works better if you understand how the word created is used in the Bible. God formed man out of the dust of the earth.
(Old Testament | Genesis 1:27)

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Old Testament | Genesis 2:7)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

While the earth is suspended in space (nothing), it is not made out of nothing.
I understand man was created from the dust of the earth, even as some creatures came from the earth and water. However, we are not speaking about those, man or creature, per se. We are speaking about the earth itself (even sun, moon and stars). What of the passages that I cited? Psa. 90:2; Pro. 8:23-26?

I do not get my idea from 'man', unless it be the inspired men who wrote those scriptures, which is why I cited them, instead of anything else. Therefore, how do you explain the words of those texts? I am curious to know.

Gen. 1:1, states that God created the Heaven and the Earth, and it does not say anything about using existing matter. A ball of clay spoken into existence, ready for use. It just says that He created them (from His own mind, by speaking that which was in His mind), and then (vs 2) goes into the next verses about shaping that which He created, ie spoke into existence.

Psa. 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Psa. 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

In consideration of John 1:1-3, etc, the scripture tells me that Jesus existed before any of the material which we see as created, for Jesus created (along with the Father, and so also Holy Ghost) those things, as Exo. 20:11; Eph. 3:9 (Father by Jesus); Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 2:10; Rev. 4:11 (Father); Heb. 3:4.

So, yes I would agree that mankind was taken from the dust, but this is not the same as the earth itself.

If we posit that even the earth was made from pre-existing matter, then the question follows, what pre-existing matter was the pre-existing matter made from, and so on into yet another infinite regress, which is logical incoherency as I understand it.
 
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He is the way

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How many verses do you have from the Bible (KJB) on 'baptism for the dead'?

How many verses are required to teach a doctrine within your understanding, as from my reading of scripture, it always requires 2-3 witnesses from the OT, and even from the NT.

Yes, but what commandments specifically? Are you referring to the Ten Commandments (Exo. 20:1-17)? Are you referring to something else?

For instance, do you keep the commandments on diet, between the distinction God gave for clean and unclean (as Noah had, Gen. 7:2,8, 8:20), found in Lev. 11 and Deut. 14, as Peter did even in the NT, Acts 10-11, and in the matter of not eating anything with blood in it, Acts 15?

For instance, do you keep the commandments on footwashing, as in John 13:5-17 when partaking of the Lord's supper?

Well, it wasn't meant to be a 'gotcha', I was just asking for more details, as I knew about those keys in the Bible. I know of other keys therein besides those.

Okay, could you be more detailed about 'those' keys? What are they and what are their functions? I understand the keys that Jesus had, as already mentioned and their function, as described by scripture (KJB). This is why I am asking about the keys you mentioned. I would like to know.

Okay, I understand what you mean by this, but was Peter the only one given those 'keys'? If Peter had those keys, how did Joseph Smith get those keys? If persons more than Peter had those keys, same question, and does no one else now have those keys? Where are the 'keys' now, and who has them, and are they still serving the same functions?

So, by saying, I assume you disavow the Roman Catholic Churches claim of the same?

Also, would you disavow any other group to those 'keys'?

Was this in reference to the Mark of the Beast and Revelation question, I was trying to follow your reply. If so, I did not mean any offense, it is just that this subject is important to me, and interesting, as I want to not be in the group that those texts Rev. 14:8,9-11 speak about, but rather be in the group that Rev. 14:6-7,12, speaks about.

You did give me material about 'sin', but it didn't define it specifically. Is there a more clear definition you could give?
You said: How many verses do you have from the Bible (KJB) on 'baptism for the dead'?
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:29)

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Temple baptismal font:
(Old Testament | 1 Kings 7:23 - 26)

23 ¶ And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
24 And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast.
25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
26 And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.

There are many commandments. Washing the feet is not one of them. Don't mix commandments and ordinances. We should not drink blood, however eating meat is not the same, Jesus ate meat. The law of Moses was fulfilled and animal sacrifice is ended. The new law was given in the sermon on the mount.

You said: "If Peter had those keys, how did Joseph Smith get those keys?" Peter James and John gave the keys to Joseph Smith after Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were given the Aaronic priesthood by John the baptist. For more on this see: Keys of the Priesthood We do not disavow any group of any keys. However the Bible states:
(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:5)

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

The list of sins I gave you should suffice, nor do I have any more on the mark of the beast.
 
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He is the way

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I understand man was created from the dust of the earth, even as some creatures came from the earth and water. However, we are not speaking about those, man or creature, per se. We are speaking about the earth itself (even sun, moon and stars). What of the passages that I cited? Psa. 90:2; Pro. 8:23-26?

I do not get my idea from 'man', unless it be the inspired men who wrote those scriptures, which is why I cited them, instead of anything else. Therefore, how do you explain the words of those texts? I am curious to know.

Gen. 1:1, states that God created the Heaven and the Earth, and it does not say anything about using existing matter. A ball of clay spoken into existence, ready for use. It just says that He created them (from His own mind, by speaking that which was in His mind), and then (vs 2) goes into the next verses about shaping that which He created, ie spoke into existence.

Psa. 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Psa. 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

In consideration of John 1:1-3, etc, the scripture tells me that Jesus existed before any of the material which we see as created, for Jesus created (along with the Father, and so also Holy Ghost) those things, as Exo. 20:11; Eph. 3:9 (Father by Jesus); Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 2:10; Rev. 4:11 (Father); Heb. 3:4.

So, yes I would agree that mankind was taken from the dust, but this is not the same as the earth itself.

If we posit that even the earth was made from pre-existing matter, then the question follows, what pre-existing matter was the pre-existing matter made from, and so on into yet another infinite regress, which is logical incoherency as I understand it.
I believe that matter has always existed:
For more about this see: Conservation of mass - Wikipedia
 
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Peter1000

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Huh?

Is. 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” says the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.

Before I answer this question, answer this question: Who is making this statement, God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Spirit? I will answer your question, but we all need to understand who is saying this.
 
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Calminian

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Before I answer this question, answer this question: Who is making this statement, God the Father, God the Son or God the Holy Spirit? I will answer your question, but we all need to understand who is saying this.

You can take your pick, as they are a trinity. God is not triplex as mormons suppose, he is triune. Mormons are polytheists believing Father, Son and HS are separate gods. The true Church of Jesus Christ as always known God is one, according to the Scriptures, expressed in 3 separate persons. God is one what and three whos. It is the one Yahweh who uttered through Isaiah.
 
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