LDS LDS folk, a question for you

[Peter1000]

No, you should know that the subject of the sentence is the Father.

Eph. 1 KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1 ESV
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 [the Father]he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which [the Father]he has freely given us in the One he loves. (the one he loves is his beloved Son)
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,
9 [the Father]he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which [the Father]he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Romans 8
… you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

You non-trinitarians don't get it.

This Ephesians chapter keeps giving up its secrets.
vs 3 God blessed us in the heavenly realms. Now you might say that heavenly realms may have been after we are resurrected and went to heaven.

But vs 4 tells you what heavenly realms we were blessed.

vs 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Therefore it was the heavenly realms before we came to earth. Wow.

vs 5 God predestined us. Can't predestine unless you are preexistent.

So vs 4 confirms we were chosen before the creation of the world,

And vs 3 tells us where it all happened - in the heavenly realms.

Wow, you guys have just opened my eyes to a whole new vision of our preexistence in the bible. Can you not see it? It is in the bible. Read it and believe.

 

[Rescued One]

This Ephesians chapter keeps giving up its secrets.
vs 3 God blessed us in the heavenly realms. Now you might say that heavenly realms may have been after we are resurrected and went to heaven.

But vs 4 tells you what heavenly realms we were blessed.

vs 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Therefore it was the heavenly realms before we came to earth. Wow.

vs 5 God predestined us. Can't predestine unless you are preexistent.

So vs 4 confirms we were chosen before the creation of the world,

And vs 3 tells us where it all happened - in the heavenly realms.

Wow, you guys have just opened my eyes to a whole new vision of our preexistence in the bible. Can you not see it? It is in the bible. Read it and believe.

You have a very limited view of God's abilities and knowledge. We do not have to be preexitent for Him to know the future and plan everything He wants to happen. Your imagination has run wild, no thanks to your false prophets. If God chose us before the world was created, He already knew which people He intended to save and if you insist on free will, He should not have done that because coming here wouldn't have proven anything except that His created beings could ignore His will and spoil His plans. His plans could go up in smoke!

 

[Rescued One]

mmksparbud said he was in post 267.

God the Son is the Father of his church, here on earth. He is the Father of his adopted sons and daughters. God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ and is the Father of our spirits.

And you are right, God the Son is not God the Father, nor has he ever been God the Father. But he can be called the Father for certain reasons.

Trinitarians can get that, as well as us.

My authority is God's word. Jesus did not refer to Himself as the Father. The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son!

 

[Peter1000]

You have a very limited view of God's abilities and knowledge. We do not have to be preexitent for Him to know the future and plan everything He wants to happen. Your imagination has run wild, no thanks to your false prophets. If God chose us before the world was created, He already knew which people He intended to save and if you insist on free will, He should not have done that because coming here wouldn't have proven anything except that His created beings could ignore His will and spoil His plans. His plans could go up in smoke!

When you read Ephesians 1:3-5 there is no reasonable person that can say we were not preexistent. Thank you again for this eye-opening scripture. God gave us blessing in the heavenly realm, before the creation of the world and predestined us to be adopted by his son Jesus Christ unto himself.

How do you explain "blessings were given to us in the heavenly realms before the earth was created"?

That seems perfectly clear to me. But of course I believe in a preexistence already. For someone who has never heard of this doctrine, maybe not so clear, but clear enough to make you wonder about the preexistence.

 

[Rescued One]

When you read Ephesians 1:3-5 there is no reasonable person that can say we were not preexistent. Thank you again for this eye-opening scripture. God gave us blessing in the heavenly realm, before the creation of the world and predestined us to be adopted by his son Jesus Christ unto himself.

How do you explain "blessings were given to us in the heavenly realms before the earth was created"?

That seems perfectly clear to me. But of course I believe in a preexistence already. For someone who has never heard of this doctrine, maybe not so clear, but clear enough to make you wonder about the preexistence.

All Mormons know that you teach a pre-earth life. I'm an ex-Mormon, remember. Read my signature.

• The blood of all the prophets was shed from the foundation (Luke Luke 11:50).

Really, back before they had mortal bodies?

 

[mmksparbud]

mmksparbud said he was in post 267.

God the Son is the Father of his church, here on earth. He is the Father of his adopted sons and daughters. God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ and is the Father of our spirits.

And you are right, God the Son is not God the Father, nor has he ever been God the Father. But he can be called the Father for certain reasons.

Trinitarians can get that, as well as us.

God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ---His one and only Son. God the Father has no "spirit children"--and He Himself was not one either. He has no father and He has no mother and He has no wife. He is from everlasting to everlasting. He is not some weak, ineffectual god that can't even have children of his own substance. Even we can. He gave us that ability--not Satan.

Psa 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

 

[mmksparbud]

This Ephesians chapter keeps giving up its secrets.
vs 3 God blessed us in the heavenly realms. Now you might say that heavenly realms may have been after we are resurrected and went to heaven.

But vs 4 tells you what heavenly realms we were blessed.

vs 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Therefore it was the heavenly realms before we came to earth. Wow.

vs 5 God predestined us. Can't predestine unless you are preexistent.

So vs 4 confirms we were chosen before the creation of the world,

And vs 3 tells us where it all happened - in the heavenly realms.

Wow, you guys have just opened my eyes to a whole new vision of our preexistence in the bible. Can you not see it? It is in the bible. Read it and believe.

LOL! That doesn't say one word about anybody preexisting before being born! Every single person has been born predestined to be saved---for Jesus Christ had already decided to shed His bled "before the foundation of the world." All anyone has to do is accept His sacrifice. He has predestined us into adoption.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

You don't adopt natural children. Jesus Christ is the creator of everything and everyone. It is the that created everything for one does not work without the other. We are adopted by all 3. Jesus claims us as our Father and our brother through His humanity. God the Father claims us as His through Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

 

[BigDaddy4]

(Old Testament | 2 Kings 23:2)

2 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD.

So you actually believe he read all 187 chapters to them? I believe the book of the covenant was a much smaller book that was kept at the temple and was a sacred book which was destroyed with the temple.

The "covenant" is contained within the Torah. It could have been just one of the 5 books or all 187 chapters that was read. That's not really relevant. What is relevant is the covenant itself is contained within the Torah and has been known for thousands of years. So it certainly was not destroyed with the temple. To follow your logic would mean there were two separate covenants, and God is not the author of that confusion.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Are you aware of any other translators that as you put it 'defiled' it?

JS added words and/or concepts that cannot be reconciled with the original transcripts.

 

[Peter1000]

God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ---His one and only Son.

You are right, God is the Father of Jesus. But God is also the Father of all mortals. (John 20:17) It is Jesus that spoke these words, and they are recorded in the bible. Read it again, then tell me how Jesus can say he is ascending to 'my Father, and your Father'. If Jesus says God the Father is our Father, I believe him. Not pastor X.

Here is the big secret. God the Father is the Father of our spirits, both Jesus's spirit and all mortal spirits. That is why Jesus could say such heretical words, that are recorded in the bible.

The difference between Jesus and us is that he is the one and only begotten Son in the flesh. There is only 1 of the spirit children that has a God for a Father and a mortal woman for a mother, and that is Jesus. He is the only begotten Son of God in the Flesh. Does that answer your question. This is straight from the bible. NO JS.

God the Father has no "spirit children"

How many scriptures have I given you to prove that God the Father is the Father of our spirits?
Many, many scriptures, many, many times. Straight from the bible, I have quoted you scriptures that say the God the Father is the Father of our spirits. You just ignore them and go on. But I will give you one again.
Hebrews 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Tell me who the Father of spirits is?

He is not some weak, ineffectual god that can't even have children of his own substance. Even we can. He gave us that ability--not Satan.

And you know that God knew that satan would beguile Eve into taking the forbidden fruit and bring about the fall. So it is God, not satan, that gave us the ability to have children. Get it right. God knows everything. satan was just God's little pawn in the fall.

Do you not know that God knew satan would beguile Eve?
Do you not know that God knew that Eve would be beguiled?
Do you not know that God knew that Eve would get Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit?
Do you not know that God caused the fall, for his purposes? If you do not then you would be looking at an ineffectual god. But he did, and he isn't. Get our position right.

 

[Rescued One]

Do you not know that God caused the fall, for his purposes? If you do not then you would be looking at an ineffectual god. But he did, and he isn't. Get our position right.

God gave Adam a choice. Adam chose SIN. God has never caused anyone to sin!

For Peter, the scriptures of his religion:
Alma 5
40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.

41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

Helaman 6
27 Yea, that same being who did plot with Cain, that if he would murder his brother Abel it should not be known unto the world. And he did plot with Cain and his followers from that time forth.

28 And also it is that same being who put it into the hearts of the people to build a tower sufficiently high that they might get to heaven. And it was that same being who led on the people who came from that tower into this land; who spread the works of darkness and abominations over all the face of the land, until he dragged the people down to an entire destruction, and to an everlasting hell.

29 Yea, it is that same being who put it into the heart of Gadianton to still carry on the work of darkness, and of secret murder; and he has brought it forth from the beginning of man even down to this time.

30 And behold, it is he who is the author of all sin. And behold, he doth carry on his works of darkness and secret murder, and doth hand down their plots, and their oaths, and their covenants, and their plans of awful wickedness, from generation to generation according as he can get hold upon the hearts of the children of men.

 

[mmksparbud]

You are right, God is the Father of Jesus. But God is also the Father of all mortals. (John 20:17) It is Jesus that spoke these words, and they are recorded in the bible. Read it again, then tell me how Jesus can say he is ascending to 'my Father, and your Father'. If Jesus says God the Father is our Father, I believe him. Not pastor X.

Here is the big secret. God the Father is the Father of our spirits, both Jesus's spirit and all mortal spirits. That is why Jesus could say such heretical words, that are recorded in the bible.

The difference between Jesus and us is that he is the one and only begotten Son in the flesh. There is only 1 of the spirit children that has a God for a Father and a mortal woman for a mother, and that is Jesus. He is the only begotten Son of God in the Flesh. Does that answer your question. This is straight from the bible. NO JS.



How many scriptures have I given you to prove that God the Father is the Father of our spirits?
Many, many scriptures, many, many times. Straight from the bible, I have quoted you scriptures that say the God the Father is the Father of our spirits. You just ignore them and go on. But I will give you one again.
Hebrews 12:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Tell me who the Father of spirits is?



And you know that God knew that satan would beguile Eve into taking the forbidden fruit and bring about the fall. So it is God, not satan, that gave us the ability to have children. Get it right. God knows everything. satan was just God's little pawn in the fall.

Do you not know that God knew satan would beguile Eve?
Do you not know that God knew that Eve would be beguiled?
Do you not know that God knew that Eve would get Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit?
Do you not know that God caused the fall, for his purposes? If you do not then you would be looking at an ineffectual god. But he did, and he isn't. Get our position right.

God the Father was with God the Son and God the Holy Spirit at creation. The bible clearly states however, that Jesus is the creator of everything--
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The 3 are one.

Jesus created Lucifer, they are not brothers in any way. The difference between Jesus and us is that Jesus was with God the Father from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus is God. They are one. Jesus, through the power of the Holy Spirit, became human.

Mat_1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat_1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus is not the product of God the Father and one of His wives! Jesus was God and through the Holy Spirit (Ghost) Became human! JS got that totally backwards! He is our brother though His becoming human. He was no brother to Satan, He created Lucifer, a covering cherub. You do not know the real Jesus! You do not know the real God the Father (who was never human), nor God the Holy Spirit.

You only know some god that can't even produce children after his own substance. Even a rat can do that.

Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Job_12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

 

[mmksparbud]

And you know that God knew that satan would beguile Eve into taking the forbidden fruit and bring about the fall. So it is God, not satan, that gave us the ability to have children. Get it right. God knows everything. satan was just God's little pawn in the fall.

Do you not know that God knew satan would beguile Eve?
Do you not know that God knew that Eve would be beguiled?
Do you not know that God knew that Eve would get Adam to partake of the forbidden fruit?
Do you not know that God caused the fall, for his purposes? If you do not then you would be looking at an ineffectual god. But he did, and he isn't. Get our position right.

God made provision for the fall before the fall. Children are a gift from God, He gave us the ability to have children at creation. Satan did not make children possible! God did not in any way cause the fall!

I knew my stepdaughter was going to end pregnant by her lousy boyfriend--I did not in any way cause her to become pregnant by him!! That was her own decision.

We are looking at a God that is love. Love requires freedom of choice. We serve a God that is able--He is able to give us freedom of choice, He is able to make it possible for us to have children after our own substance, and as He did every living creature--(Your God can't even do that)---our God is able to keep His word in tact--yours isn't. Our God has angels that do His bidding, yours is one that requires some sort of fog to come to earth to experience hell by becoming human here and then go back to Him. His had their time for choosing whom they would obey. They only come here to take care of us and give us messages from Him. Your God has weak angels that were weak humans who will remain weak angels after they go back to your god for not doing everything they were supposed to have and or learned while down here. God's angels are far more powerful, one can unleash the 4 winds of the tribulation on this earth. If anyone has an ineffectual God, it is you.

 

[Peter1000]

God gave Adam a choice. Adam chose SIN. God has never caused anyone to sin!

Alma 5
40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is good cometh from God, and whatsoever is evil cometh from the devil.

41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him.

Helaman 6
27 Yea, that same being who did plot with Cain, that if he would murder his brother Abel it should not be known unto the world. And he did plot with Cain and his followers from that time forth.

28 And also it is that same being who put it into the hearts of the people to build a tower sufficiently high that they might get to heaven. And it was that same being who led on the people who came from that tower into this land; who spread the works of darkness and abominations over all the face of the land, until he dragged the people down to an entire destruction, and to an everlasting hell.

29 Yea, it is that same being who put it into the heart of Gadianton to still carry on the work of darkness, and of secret murder; and he has brought it forth from the beginning of man even down to this time.

30 And behold, it is he who is the author of all sin. And behold, he doth carry on his works of darkness and secret murder, and doth hand down their plots, and their oaths, and their covenants, and their plans of awful wickedness, from generation to generation according as he can get hold upon the hearts of the children of men.

Did God not allow satan to beguile Eve? OR did satan some how slip past God and ruin his plan for Adam and Eve?

 

[Peter1000]

God made provision for the fall before the fall.

You are right.

We are looking at a God that is love. Love requires freedom of choice. We serve a God that is able--He is able to give us freedom of choice, He is able to make it possible for us to have children after our own substance, and as He did every living creature

We believe the same thing.

our God is able to keep His word in tact

Then why hasn't he? Because he allows freedom of choice and some humans have tried to change the originals to their biased view of his word. There's that freedom of choice again.

Our God has angels that do His bidding, yours is one that requires some sort of fog to come to earth to experience hell by becoming human here and then go back to Him.

I do not know what you are trying to say, but it is a false notion of what you think we believe. You are way off the mark again.

His had their time for choosing whom they would obey. They only come here to take care of us and give us messages from Him

.
Again, rather incomprehensible.

Your God has weak angels that were weak humans who will remain weak angels after they go back to your god for not doing everything they were supposed to have and or learned while down here.

Again, totally incomprehensible.

God's angels are far more powerful, one can unleash the 4 winds of the tribulation on this earth.

We believe this too.

If anyone has an ineffectual God, it is you.

God is not ineffectual.

 

[Rescued One]

Did God not allow satan to beguile Eve? OR did satan some how slip past God and ruin his plan for Adam and Eve?

The sin was committed by Adam.

 

[Rescued One]

Did God not allow satan to beguile Eve? OR did satan some how slip past God and ruin his plan for Adam and Eve?

No one can thwart God's plans. His plan was to give Adam free will.

Woe to those who say the fall was good!

Isaiah 5
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

 

[mmksparbud]

Then why hasn't he? Because he allows freedom of choice and some humans have tried to change the originals to their biased view of his word. There's that freedom of choice again.

He did---it is JS that teaches he didn't so he could elevate his own writings above the bible.

I do not know what you are trying to say, but it is a false notion of what you think we believe. You are way off the mark again.

It is your believe that we all existed as some sort of spirit children of God and one of His wives asnd that we have to come to esarth to find out how to say no to sin. That is your foolish concept of God, not mine. Your God can not produce children that are of the same substance as He is and you say He is flesh and bone and once was humasn--yet He can't produce children after His own substsance---Ours has One, and Only One, Son that was always God with Him and created everything.-

.
Again, rather incomprehensible.

God created all His angels with free will. They exercised that free will when deciding whether to listen to Lucifer or God. Those that chose Lucifer will pay the price in the lake of fire. Those that stayed with God have already made their eternal choice.

God is not ineffectual.

Our God isn't. Yours is. Yours can not produce children of His own substance, you say He was once human, yet even His children aren't, He has to send His "spirit children" to earth to become human in order to learn to say no to sin, He cannot create from nothing, He couldn't give Adam and Eve children until they had sinned, He couldn't keep His word from becoming "corrupted," He can't talk to His proophet in His own language but has to make him look at a stone in a hat to decipher stuff,

Your God is the most ineffectual, weak God that I have ever heard of. Ours was never human. Jesus gave up everything He had in heaven in order to become human to save us and you can't even appreciate the price He paid for us.

 

[Peter1000]

He did---it is JS that teaches he didn't so he could elevate his own writings above the bible.

If that were really the truth, then we would not use the bible at all. As it is, we use the bible every day, studying its pages, and trying to live the way the bible tells us to live. So no, he did not elevate his writings above the bible. You are way off again.

It is your believe that we all existed as some sort of spirit children of God and one of His wives asnd that we have to come to esarth to find out how to say no to sin.

The Church of Jesus Christ knows why we are here on earth. Tell me why you think we have to go through an earth experience?

Your God can not produce children that are of the same substance as He is and you say He is flesh and bone and once was humasn--yet He can't produce children after His own substsance---Ours has One, and Only One, Son that was always God with Him and created everything.-

God did create spirit children, the scriptures are full of that doctrine. As far as this earth life, he has produced one child. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God the Father and Mary. So we believe the same as you. You believe Jesus is God, you know he was also a human right?

God created all His angels with free will. They exercised that free will when deciding whether to listen to Lucifer or God. Those that chose Lucifer will pay the price in the lake of fire. Those that stayed with God have already made their eternal choice.

Yes, God gave all of his creation free will. So when did this decision take place to listen to lucifer or God? It had to be before this earth was populated with humans. Oh, I know, it happened in the pre-earth life. You can read about it in Revelations 12. Just like JS said too.

Those that stayed with God have not already made their eternal choice. But they did make the right choice and kept their first estate. Now they get the opportunity to come to earth and see if they will make that same choice outside the immediate influence of God and Jesus. If we make the right choices here on earth, our second estate, then we will be blessed with eternal life. But you must make the right decisions here on earth. That is why we are here.

Our God isn't. Yours is. Yours can not produce children of His own substance, you say He was once human, yet even His children aren't, He has to send His "spirit children" to earth to become human in order to learn to say no to sin, He cannot create from nothing, He couldn't give Adam and Eve children until they had sinned, He couldn't keep His word from becoming "corrupted," He can't talk to His proophet in His own language but has to make him look at a stone in a hat to decipher stuff,

Mindless rambling.

Jesus gave up everything He had in heaven in order to become human to save us and you can't even appreciate the price He paid for us.

We believe that Jesus gave up his position in heaven to come to earth and be sacrificed on a cross to save us unto eternal life. We certainly appreciate the price he paid for us. Come on. That is why we follow Jesus, that is why we try to emulate Jesus, because we appreciate the price he paid for us. So teach the right things about LDS. Please.

 

[mmksparbud]

If that were really the truth, then we would not use the bible at all. As it is, we use the bible every day, studying its pages, and trying to live the way the bible tells us to live. So no, he did not elevate his writings above the bible. You are way off again.

Please!! He said it himself and so has every other of your prophets---his writings are more accurate than the bible and if there is a contradiction between the bible and his writings---it is JS you are to follow. So, you may read it, but you only believe the parts that agree with JS.