LDS and Miracles

[RevelationTestament]

proxy baptism ???

That is a valid baptism if accepted.
I think you are getting it.

 

[Rescued One]

Those aren't really "saving" ordinances, with the exception of baptism. All one needs to be saved is to accept Christ and be baptized. The other ordinances are necessary to advance beyond simple salvation.

Baloney! That is a typical LDS trick answer.

Salvation equals spending eternity with God; biblically, it is a free gift called eternal life.

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”—A of F 1:3

All men are raised in immortality by the grace of God; those who believe and obey his laws are raised also unto eternal life.
- Bruce R. McConkie

 

[drstevej]

That is a valid baptism if accepted.
I think you are getting it.

So one does not need to be baptised just let someone do it for ya.

This reverses baptism and faith. Not surprising in Smithism.

 

[RevelationTestament]

So one does not need to be baptised just let someone do it for ya.

This reverses baptism and faith. Not surprising in Smithism.

Well, if one purposefully rejects baptism in this life, I'm sure there would be consequences.
God judges according to the heart.

 

[Rescued One]

Some ordinances, called saving ordinances, are essential to an individual’s salvation. Other ordinances, while not essential to salvation, nevertheless bless our lives and gives us comfort, encouragement, and guidance in life. Doctrine and Covenants 84:20 teaches us that “in the ordinances [of the priesthood], the power of godliness is manifest.”

Saving ordinances include:
•Baptism
•Confirmation (the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost)
•Receiving the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men)
•The temple endowment and initiatory ordinances
•Marriage sealing (temple marriage)

Other ordinances, also performed by priesthood authority but not essential for our salvation, are:
•Naming and blessing children
•Partaking of the Sacrament
•Consecrating oil for administering to the sick
•Administering to the sick and afflicted
•Father’s blessings of comfort and counsel
•Patriarchal blessings
•Dedicating a grave
Saving Ordinances - Mormon Mission Prep


9. Ordinances and Covenants
In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act that has spiritual meaning. Each ordinance was designed by God to teach spiritual truths. The ordinances of salvation are performed by the authority of the priesthood and under the direction of those who hold priesthood keys. Some ordinances are essential to exaltation and are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing.

…A covenant is a sacred agreement between God and man. God gives the conditions for the covenant, and we agree to do what He asks us to do; God then promises us certain blessings for our obedience (see D&C 82:10; 84:33-39). All the saving ordinances of the priesthood are accompanied by covenants.
Introduction to Basic Doctrines - Mormon Mission Prep

Ordinances

In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord. (bold mine)
Ordinances

 

[drstevej]

Well, if one purposefully rejects baptism in this life, I'm sure there would be consequences.

Black skin??? (2 Nephi 5:21)

 

[Rescued One]

Faith in Christ produces miracles but can't bring salvation because the priesthood is required for that according to Mormonism. That is ironic.

That is wrong, and I think you know that.

CFR.

The accusation that I am wrong is false.

 

[Rescued One]

Black skin??? (2 Nephi 5:21)

Lower kingdom in the hereafter.

 

[drstevej]

Lower kingdom in the hereafter.

Would I get a pet curelom?

 

[RevelationTestament]

The accusation that I am wrong is false.

You are wrong. If not, then there is no reason to do baptisms for the dead. Marriage is simply not a saving ordinance, and there is no scripture saying it is. I don't care what some lesson manual says. They have been wrong before.

 

[drstevej]

I don't care what some lesson manual says. They have been wrong before.

So it is OK with you if Mormon Missionaries are taught falsehoods in their training? Maybe the *just joking* should be included in the Mormon Mission Prep Version 2.0.

Which is more problematic for a Mormon Missionary? A false understanding of Mormon ordinances or a flat tire?

 

[Rescued One]

You are wrong. If not, then there is no reason to do baptisms for the dead. Marriage is simply not a saving ordinance, and there is no scripture saying it is. I don't care what some lesson manual says. They have been wrong before.

It is a saving ordinance. Perhaps you are single or divorced and wish it could be otherwise.

Marriage for time and eternity is a commandment that can't be ignored without dire consequences. I had this same arguement with Ran77.

Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing.
Ordinances

Mormons who come here should at least become familiar with Mormonism.

 

[williamgramsmith]

It is a saving ordinance. Perhaps you are single or divorced and wish it could be otherwise.

Marriage for time and eternity is a commandment that can't be ignored without dire consequences. I had this same arguement with Ran77.

Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing.
Ordinances

Mormons who come here should at least become familiar with Mormonism.

Holy freak.....!!! There you go again Phoebe.

The ONLY "saving" ordainances are Baptism by Water and by Fire.
AKA Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as the Bible states BTW.

ALL OTHER ordainances of the Church are "Exalting" ordainances, not saving ordainances.

Where you are confused as usual, is that sometimes "salvation" is used as a catch all phrase like it is also used in the Bible sometimes, as well as Hell, etc.

Technical and direct LDS Theology specifically states what I've just explained salvation is and what RevelationTestament has been saying.

Why don't YOU start keeping your opinions to yourself if YOU can't actually accurately represent Mormonism?

Again, we know our religion, and over and over again, you clearly do not.

 

[drstevej]

The problem is not Phoebe, it is the ambiguity of your church's training materials where were quoted/linked as documentation.

And teens are given a badge and a bike and sent out with ambiguous terminology.

 

[williamgramsmith]

Then why do you believe in the Bible? The Bible is just as "ambiguous".

It thus takes knowledge and experience to correctly interpret and expound the Bible, likewise one needs to actually be mormon and/or not "intolerant" of it to accurately represent it.

The problem is not us, it is YOU.

And if you think not, then again, do you consider ex-Christian Atheists to be EXPERT Judges of what the Bible "actually" teaches? No you don't. So why are YOU such "experts" about us, and we Mormons are not?

 

[drstevej]

Is the manual cited ambiguous? Yes or No?

 

[RevelationTestament]

It is a saving ordinance. Perhaps you are single or divorced and wish it could be otherwise.

You are wrong again. I am married. It is not a saving ordinance.

Marriage for time and eternity is a commandment that can't be ignored without dire consequences. I had this same arguement with Ran77.

It is not a commandment. It is a covenant. I don't know what Ran77 said. But if he said it is a commandment, which I'm sure he didn't, I would disagree with him too.

Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing.

Again exaltation is not equivalent to salvation - no way, no how.

Mormons who come here should at least become familiar with Mormonism.

I guess you need to refamiliarize yourself with the scriptures and not lesson manuals.

 

[williamgramsmith]

Is the manual cited ambiguous? Yes or No?

Nope, your judgment is.

For example, the article Phoebe quotes above uses the word "salvation", but right before it, it uses the word "Exaltation", thus it was equating salvation with Exaltation. It wasn't talking about the delineation between basic salvation, or salvation ordinances with Exalting ordinances, it was combining all ordinances that have to do with salvation and exaltation.

Listen, we are talking our "technical" doctrines and teachings here....
If you want to be offenders for a word and nit pick ever "generalized" statement, then we are not going to get anywhere.

Generalization occurs all the time in groups, society's, teachings, etc.
If you are this petty, then we can't help you.

 

[drstevej]

Again exaltation is not equivalent to salvation - no way, no how.

For example, the article Phoebe quotes above uses the word "salvation", but right before it, it uses the word "Exaltation", thus it was equating salvation with Exaltation.

Need a conference?

 

[williamgramsmith]

No, because in context we understand what each other is saying, but you don't.

And I've already explained that a "generalized" or as you claim "ambiguous" usage of the term "Salvation" to describe ALL "saving/exalting" ordinances is not some big SIN. It's simply a common phenomena of language.

He and I otherwise are telling you the "technical" deviations and theology.
We are not speaking "general" here, we are speaking specifics.