• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

LDS and Miracles

williamgramsmith

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2012
837
7
✟1,043.00
Faith
Marital Status
Private
Okay, let me try to put this another way for you people.....

In a GENERAL sense, "saving" ordinances include ALL saving and exalting ordinances of the Gospel of Christ.

In a specific sense, there are the "saving" ordinances that save one from physical and spiritual death, also known as the First Saving Principles or Ordinances of the Gospel (which are Baptism by water and fire), and then there are the Exalting ordinances, those that help us live with God personally, being Gods ourselves (such as Marriage).

This is really simple and normal English language....

Any ordinance that has to do with living with God "saves", but not every ordinance is saving or exalting. A saving ordinance for example is not an Exalting ordinance and vica versa, but ALL in general terms "save".

Is this really so hard to understand?
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,354
6,921
Midwest
✟149,590.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Holy freak.....!!! There you go again Phoebe. :(

The ONLY "saving" ordainances are Baptism by Water and by Fire.
AKA Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as the Bible states BTW.

ALL OTHER ordainances of the Church are "Exalting" ordainances, not saving ordainances.

Where you are confused as usual, is that sometimes "salvation" is used as a catch all phrase like it is also used in the Bible sometimes, as well as Hell, etc.

Technical and direct LDS Theology specifically states what I've just explained salvation is and what RevelationTestament has been saying.

Why don't YOU start keeping your opinions to yourself if YOU can't actually accurately represent Mormonism?

Again, we know our religion, and over and over again, you clearly do not.

Too bad you find it necessary to disagree with lds.org!
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,354
6,921
Midwest
✟149,590.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
:sorry:

Some ordinances, called saving ordinances, are essential to an individual’s salvation. Other ordinances, while not essential to salvation, nevertheless bless our lives and gives us comfort, encouragement, and guidance in life.
Saving Ordinances - Mormon Mission Prep

Some Mormons just don't get it!

Non-essential ordinances:

•Naming and blessing children
•Partaking of the Sacrament
•Consecrating oil for administering to the sick
•Administering to the sick and afflicted
•Father’s blessings of comfort and counsel
•Patriarchal blessings
•Dedicating a grave
 
Upvote 0

skylark1

In awesome wonder
Nov 20, 2003
12,545
251
Visit site
✟14,186.00
Faith
Christian
After reading some of the examples of the ways that the terms saving ordinances and exalting ordinances are used, I think that there are times when saving ordinances refers to only baptism and confirmation, while exaltation ordinances refers to temple endowment, marriage sealing etc. Other times all of these are called saving ordinances. This is consistent with salvation (LDS) at times referring to salvation from death

In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the terms “saved” and “salvation” have various meanings...

Salvation From Death...

Salvation From Sin...

Being Born Again...

Salvation From Ignorance...

Salvation From Second Death...

Eternal Life or Exaltation...​

Please see the link for details.
Salvation

However, I think that it is probably used most commonly to refer to salvation from death, and exaltation. So, when something is called a saving ordinance, the meaning depends upon the context in which the term was used.


Here are a few examples of times when exaltation ordinances are distinguished from saving ordinances :

One of the most important blessings of the priesthood for every son and daughter of God is our access to its saving and exalting ordinances
LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Incomparable Blessings of the Priesthood


Living members of the Church receive these saving and exalting ordinances themselves. Deceased persons may receive them vicariously.
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-principles?lang=eng


All who will hear the glad tidings may have the privilege of full access to the saving and exalting ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the peace and the happiness they bring to individuals and families.
LDS.org - Ensign Article - Creating Places of Security


In harmony with biblical precedent and latter-day commandment, all saving and exalting ordinances, from baptism to temple marriage, are performed in the presence of witnesses, and a proper and faithful record is made and kept in the archives of the Church.
Ordinances - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism


The Lord, who has worked so long and hard to establish His righteous people, said that if those saving and exalting priesthood ordinances cease to exist, then Israel also will cease to exist—forever. This statement surely indicates the importance of ordinances in the Lord’s plan.
Old Testament Student Manual - 25 - Jeremiah 23 ; 30 - 31 ; 33 ; 46 - 51 ; Obadiah - Prophecies of a Latter-day Gathering
 
Upvote 0

williamgramsmith

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2012
837
7
✟1,043.00
Faith
Marital Status
Private
Phoebe.... ALL of us Mormons "get it" just fine.... It is YOU who don't get it.

Don't disagree with LDS.org at all. They are speaking in your quotes "generally", we are speaking specifically.

Is that too complicated to understand for you, the difference between "general" and "specific"?
You forget you're speaking to LDS intellectuals here who when they speak they speak "specifically" so things are perfectly accurate. Your specific quotes are "milk", we are giving you the "meat", the deeper doctrine/understandings.
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
For the general reader who might get misled by what some are saying, I will give an example. Someone who is not married but follows the law, will be saved, and not damned. But they cannot receive the highest levels of exaltation. Some can be saved as angels, rather than as gods/elohim - nevertheless, they are all saved. Some can be saved to become judges of Israel with Christ, but most will not, but they will still be saved from the condemnation of hell. This is how I use the terms. Now, Phoebe, you can twist and turn the words however you want, but the meaning is as I have described.
Have a nice day! :)
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,577
27,116
76
Lousianna
✟1,016,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
For the general reader who might get misled by what some are saying, I will give an example. Someone who is not married but follows the law, will be saved, and not damned. But they cannot receive the highest levels of exaltation. Some can be saved as angels, rather than as gods/elohim - nevertheless, they are all saved. Some can be saved to become judges of Israel with Christ, but most will not, but they will still be saved from the condemnation of hell. This is how I use the terms. Now, Phoebe, you can twist and turn the words however you want, but the meaning is as I have described.
Have a nice day! :)

This explanation is loaded with Smithism (Mormon revisionism)> Read your Bibles for the un-cluttered truth..
 
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
This explanation is loaded with Smithism (Mormon revisionism)> Read your Bibles for the un-cluttered truth..

You mean Biblicism?
Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matt 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Matt 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,354
6,921
Midwest
✟149,590.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
For the general reader who might get misled by what some are saying, I will give an example. Someone who is not married but follows the law, will be saved, and not damned. But they cannot receive the highest levels of exaltation. Some can be saved as angels, rather than as gods/elohim - nevertheless, they are all saved. Some can be saved to become judges of Israel with Christ, but most will not, but they will still be saved from the condemnation of hell. This is how I use the terms. Now, Phoebe, you can twist and turn the words however you want, but the meaning is as I have described.
Have a nice day! :)

You can accuse as much as you like. It's like water off a duck's back.

To spend eternity with God as a son or daughter, that person must receive exaltation. That is the only way to avoid LDS damnation(LDS damnation means that your eternal progression is stopped because you weren't obedient). All people who choose to not obey the commandment to marry for eternity are less worthy of spending eternity where the Father is. Those angels did NOT abide the law of eternal marriage and cannot be a son or daughter of Heavenly Father.

Doctrine and Covenants 132.

And Joseph Fielding Smith explained this.

ENDOWMENT AND SEALING PRECEDE SONSHIP. The Lord has given unto us privileges, and blessings and the opportunity of entering into covenants, of accepting ordinances that pertain to our salvation beyond what is preached in the world; beyond the principles of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance from sin, and baptism for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost; and these principles and covenants are received nowhere else but in the temple of God.
If you would become a son or daughter of God and an heir of the kingdom, then you must go to the house of the Lord and receive blessings which there can be obtained and which cannot be obtained elsewhere; and you must keep those commandments and those covenants to the end. . . .

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 40


EXALTED BEINGS BELONG TO THE CHURCH OF FIRSTBORN. Those who gain exaltation in the celestial kingdom are those who are members of the Church of the Firstborn; in other words, those who keep all the commandments of the Lord. There will be many who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who shall never become members of the Church of the Firstborn.

The higher ordinances in the temple of God pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom....In order to receive this blessing, one must keep the full law, must abide the law by which that kingdom is governed; for, "He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of salvation, Vol. 2, p. 41-42

CELESTIAL MARRIAGE ESSENTIAL TO EXALTATION. Another thing that we must not forget in this great plan of redemption and exaltation, is that a man must have a wife, and a woman a husband, to receive the fulness of exaltation. They must be sealed for time and for all eternity in a temple;
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of salvation, Vol. 2, p. 43-44

Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.

Just think of the possibilities, the potential. Every little boy that has just been born becomes an heir to this glorious, glorious program. When he is grown, he meets a lovely woman; they are married in the holy temple. They live all the commandments of the Lord. They keep themselves clean. And then they become sons of God, and they go forward with their great program—they go beyond the angels, beyond the angels and the gods that are waiting there. They go to their exaltation.
Spencer W. Kimball, Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 80

SORROW IN RESURRECTION IF NO ETERNAL MARRIAGE. These young people who seem to be so happy now, when they rise in the resurrection—and find themselves in the condition in which they will find themselves—then there will be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and bitterness of soul; and they have brought it upon themselves because of their lack of faith and understanding of the gospel, and from, I am sorry to say, the encouragement they have received many times from their own parents....

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 60

If you want to call "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth" salvation, go right ahead, but your arguements will get you nowhere.
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,577
27,116
76
Lousianna
✟1,016,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If you want to call "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth" salvation, go right ahead, but your arguments will get you nowhere.

Hmmmm. Smithism can stretch a word.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,354
6,921
Midwest
✟149,590.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The earth was created and this Church was restored so that families could be formed, sealed, and exalted eternally. 17

17. Whenever scriptures warn that the “earth would be utterly wasted,” the warning is connected to the need for priesthood authority to seal families together in holy temples (see D&C 2:1–3; 138:48; Joseph Smith—History 1:38–39).

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/celestial-marriage?lang=eng

Forming your own family is at the heart of the reason you are here on earth.
Richard G. Scott, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 69

Marriage, and its duties, are therefore, not a mere matter of choice or convenience, or of pleasure to the parties; but to marry and multiply is a positive command of Almighty God, binding on all persons of both sexes who are circumstanced and conditioned to fulfill the same. To marry, propagate our species, do our duty to them, and to educate them in the light of truth, are among the chief objects of our existence on the earth. To neglect these duties, is to fail to answer the end of our creation, and is a very great sin.
Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology/A Voice of Warning, p.164-165

A key purpose of God’s plan is the formation of eternal families.
Merrill J. Bateman, The Eternal Family, 1998
Speeches

The doctrine of the family begins with heavenly parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like them. The Apostle Paul taught that God is the father of our spirits (see Heb. 12:9). From the proclamation we read, “In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life.” The proclamation also reiterates to the world that “marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children” (“The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102).
Robert D. Hales, The Eternal Family, General Conference, October 1996
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,577
27,116
76
Lousianna
✟1,016,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,354
6,921
Midwest
✟149,590.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Upvote 0

RevelationTestament

Our God is a consuming fire.
Apr 26, 2013
3,727
46
United States
✟26,904.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Jerry, a Protestant gentleman in his mid-60s who lives in Mesa, Arizona. Jerry’s father was a Baptist minister; his mother, a Methodist minister. One day Jerry’s close friend Pricilla shared with him the pain she felt from the death of her child during childbirth and a bitter divorce that occurred shortly thereafter. Struggling as a single mother, Pricilla has four children—three daughters and a son. As she opened her heart to Jerry, she confessed that she was thinking of taking her own life. With all the strength and love Jerry could muster, he tried to help her understand that her life had value. He invited her to attend his church, but Pricilla explained that she had given up on God.

Jerry did not know what to do. Later, while watering trees in his yard, this man of faith prayed to God for guidance. As he prayed, he heard a voice in his mind saying, “Stop the boys on the bikes.” Jerry, a little bewildered, wondered what this meant. As he reflected on this impression, he gazed up the street and saw two young men in white shirts and ties riding bicycles toward his home. Stunned by this “coincidence,” he watched them ride by. Then, realizing that the situation required him to act, he shouted out, “Hey, you, please stop! I need to talk to you!”

With a puzzled but excited look, the young men stopped. As they approached, Jerry noticed that they wore name tags identifying them as missionaries in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Jerry looked at them and said, “This may sound a little weird, but I was praying and was told to ‘stop the boys on the bikes.’ I looked up the street, and here you are. Can you help me?”

The missionaries smiled, and one said, “Yes, I am sure we can.”

Jerry explained the worrisome plight of Pricilla. Soon the missionaries were meeting with Pricilla, her children, and Jerry. They discussed the purpose of life and God’s eternal plan for them. Jerry, Pricilla, and her children grew in faith through sincere prayer, their study of the Book of Mormon, and the loving fellowship with members of the Church. Jerry’s already strong faith in Jesus Christ grew even stronger. Pricilla’s doubts and thoughts of suicide turned to hope and happiness. They were baptized and became members of Christ’s restored Church.

Source: Personal communication to Russel M Nelson from W. Tracy Watson, former president of the Arizona Mesa Mission. Ensign Oct '12.

The most important healing Christ does is spiritual healing.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,354
6,921
Midwest
✟149,590.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Spiritual Healing:

I'm so grateful, beyond comprehension, for the way that God chose to bring me out of Mormonism to Christ. He certainly was patient with me!

32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free...

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8


He has filled the hungry with good things

but has sent the rich away empty.

Luke 1
 
Upvote 0

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
In Memory Of
Mar 18, 2003
47,577
27,116
76
Lousianna
✟1,016,631.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0