lcms and wels diffs?

[Zecryphon]

It still doesn't change the context of the chapter, which has to do with spiritual gifts given to individuals. In the NT the word "Church" refers to the gathering of individuals as the body of believers. The list given has to do with gifts given to individuals within the body of believers, not positions within the organization. They are two completely different things.

There also is no distinction made in that verse as to who these gifts are given. The prohibition of women in the pastoral office comes from other places, but there is no distinction made here as to whether or not women are given the gifts of "healing, helping, administrating" etc. No such distinction is made elsewhere in Scripture, either.

Then it's not the offices other than the office of pastor that are man made, it's the organization that is man made. We can see very clearly in verse 28, that God does call people to these offices, just as He called you to your office. You're the one claiming that there is only one divinely called office, that of the pastor. Verse 28 disproves that. I never claimed a distinction was made about who receives which gifts. When a person receives a spiritual gift from God, they are going to want to use it.

If the LCMS wants to deny people who have been called by God to serve in the roles He has called them to, which are something other than the pastoral office, that is their error to make. We here in the WELS will not only welcome such people with open arms and hearts, we will recognize that they have been gifted by God and sent to us by God.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

But it still misses the distinction between the authoratative office in the church, and other positions where women's spiritual gifts can be used within the organization. That's the main difference. The WELS applies one stance to all things, where the LCMS sees the Biblical distinction.

No it doesn't. I think in all of this you have completely lost the point. I still serve in my congregation. I serve as God has called me to serve. But I do not have authority over the men in my church in any capacity. I don't vote against them, I don't sit on a council that decides church discipline.

YOUR women do. YOUR women exercise authority over men because your synod allows them to sit in positions that exercise authority.

Since our doctrinal stance is fully backed with scriptures (listed right in the statement for your convenience), I'd like to know which scriptures you take issue with.

 

[twin.spin]

The point of my post was to show you that there were women in Jesus' earthly ministry. A link to the position of the WELS on women in the church has been provided by PW for everyone to read. Now is there anything else we can help you with?

I wasn't saying that women didn't have a supporting role with Jesus in his ministry. We probably were speaking from the same view point but from different perspectives.

I didn't see the link that pw referenced.... probably because I don't read every post that doesn't directly involve me. But even so, I'm fairly confident about the what WELS holds to being my sister is a MLC grad and a preacher's wife since 1965 ... my wife is a MLC 1982 grad.

 

[DaRev]

So, you're pretty much relying on information provided by others instead of what you've personally seen in each LCMS church in the nation. Got it.

Oy vey!

 

[DaRev]

Then it's not the offices other than the office of pastor that are man made, it's the organization that is man made. We can see very clearly in verse 28, that God does call people to these offices, just as He called you to your office. You're the one claiming that there is only one divinely called office, that of the pastor. Verse 28 disproves that. I never claimed a distinction was made about who receives which gifts. When a person receives a spiritual gift from God, they are going to want to use it.

Again, you're missing the context. This chapter is not talking about offices in the congregation. It's talking about spiritual gifts given to individuals.

If the LCMS wants to deny people who have been called by God to serve in the roles He has called them to, which are something other than the pastoral office, that is their error to make. We here in the WELS will not only welcome such people with open arms and hearts, we will recognize that they have been gifted by God and sent to us by God.

How is the LCMS denying people called by God to serve? You've just contradicted yourself. What if God has given the gift of administration to a woman? The WELS denies her the ability to use that God given gift in the congregation. You're not welcoming her with open arms, you're telling her "sorry, ma'am, but God doesn't want you to use your spiritual gift here". The LCMS isn't making the error, the WELS is.

 

[Zecryphon]

You're the one saying that only the office of pastor is the only divinely given office by God and that the other offices we see God assigning to people are not divinely given. Verse 28 proves your assertion wrong. I'm not addressing the context of 1 Corinthians here, I am addressing your erroneous assertion. The LCMS is denying people their divine calling by saying that only the office of pastor is the only office divinely given. So if someone is a teacher or administrator called by God to serve in the church, the LCMS will not recognize the office of that person as divinely given. You wanna talk about contradictions? The Bible clearly says that God appoints people to the offices in the church, the LCMS says He does not, unless it's the office of pastor, then and ONLY THEN is it a divine calling.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Again, you're missing the context. This chapter is not talking about offices in the congregation. It's talking about spiritual gifts given to individuals.

so you just ignore the whole "God has appointed in the church" part of that passage? And hey, what "office" do you think those whose spiritual gift is administration might hold? Should a female get to hold that office if it puts her in authority over a man? Or do you seriously believe that women's authority is fine over everyone but the pastor?

How is the LCMS denying people called by God to serve? You've just contradicted yourself. What if God has given the gift of administration to a woman? The WELS denies her the ability to use that God given gift in the congregation. You're not welcoming her with open arms, you're telling her "sorry, ma'am, but God doesn't want you to use your spiritual gift here". The LCMS isn't making the error, the WELS is.

The WELS doesn't deny anyone the ability to use their gifts or fulfill their calling. What we do is we allow people to serve within the bounds of what God has set up. If a calling goes against what God has taught us, then it's not a calling from God anyway, right? But...it's precisely the logic from your post which leads me to believe that it won't be long until LCMS is ordaining females. How long until someone in the LCMS says "we're refusing to let women use their spiritual gift when we don't ordain them!" and how long until that opinion grows popular with the restless natives?

 

[DaRev]

You're the one saying that only the office of pastor is the only divinely given office by God and that the other offices we see God assigning to people are not divinely given. Verse 28 proves your assertion wrong. I'm not addressing the context of 1 Corinthians here, I am addressing your erroneous assertion. The LCMS is denying people their divine calling by saying that only the office of pastor is the only office divinely given. So if someone is a teacher or administrator called by God to serve in the church, the LCMS will not recognize the office of that person as divinely given. You wanna talk about contradictions? The Bible clearly says that God appoints people to the offices in the church, the LCMS says He does not, unless it's the office of pastor, then and ONLY THEN is it a divine calling.

The pastoral office is the only office in the Church that is divinely established. That doesn't mean that people aren't given gifts to perform other tasks. If someone is givine the gift of administration, they can certainly use that within the congregation. But that doesn't mean that "administrator" is aa divinely established office within the Church.

The Bible does not say that God appoints people to offices in the Church aside from the one divinely established office. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gives gifts of the ability to do certain tasks that can be used within the congregation. Big difference.

 

[DaRev]

so you just ignore the whole "God has appointed in the church" part of that passage? And hey, what "office" do you think those whose spiritual gift is administration might hold? Should a female get to hold that office if it puts her in authority over a man? Or do you seriously believe that women's authority is fine over everyone but the pastor?

What is your definition of "Church"? Apparently it is different than Scripture's definition. In the NT the word "Church" is used for the Greek word "ekklesia" which refers to the gathering of individual members of the body of Christ. It does not necessarily mean the organized congregation. In fact, the organized congregations we now have are man-made. What "God has appointed in the Church" are the gifts of the spirit as 1 Corinthians 12 clearly states. The prohibition of authority of women over men is within the context of the pastoral office.

The WELS doesn't deny anyone the ability to use their gifts or fulfill their calling. What we do is we allow people to serve within the bounds of what God has set up. If a calling goes against what God has taught us, then it's not a calling from God anyway, right?

Agreed.

But...it's precisely the logic from your post which leads me to believe that it won't be long until LCMS is ordaining females.

Scripture clearly teaches that women are not called to be pastors. They are not given that spiritual gift of teaching and preaching in that one divinely established office. But they are certainly given other gifts and abilities that can be used within the congregation, that the WELS is denying them.

How long until someone in the LCMS says "we're refusing to let women use their spiritual gift when we don't ordain them!" and how long until that opinion grows popular with the restless natives?

The same thing could be asked in the WELS who deny women the ability to utilize the gifts that God does give to them.

I suppose that if the WELS wishes to apply this across the board that is there perogative. But don't accuse the LCMS of being in error when the Scriptures clearly support otherwise.

 

[seajoy]

Rev - are teachers 'called' in the LCMS, or just 'hired'? I'm getting confused. In the WELS, my kids received calls.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Rev - are teachers 'called' in the LCMS, or just 'hired'? I'm getting confused. In the WELS, my kids received calls.

They are hired. Several of my extended family members are teachers in the LCMS and they are not considered divine workers, nor do they receive a "divine call" in the way that the WELS teachers do.

It is also my understanding that the means of getting a pastor are a bit different. WELS pastors receive a call from a church and generally within 6-8 weeks accept or decline the call. I believe, from Rev's own postings here, that there is a bit more to their process. I think Rev actually went and met with the congregation he was called to serve and that the process took several months. A friend of ours whose father was a pastor in the LCMS likened it to several "interviews"...I don't know if that characterization is correct.

Because our teachers receive a divine call, their calls are handled in the same way that a pastor call is handled. The church holds a voters assembly and they are given a list from the district president of names that match up to the skillset and experience that the school is looking for. They vote and the top 2 votes are then discussed again and a new vote is taken. After it is determined which candidate has the highest amounts of votes, another vote is taken with the wish that the vote to call the teachers is unanimous. It almost always is. WELS believes that this call is just as divinely inspired as the call to a pastor is.

Schools cannot just fire a teacher or a pastor. They must have shown that the proper line of church discipline has taken place, from Matthew, and the elders (or the council if the church doesn't have elders) must first vote to terminate the call. That vote then gets sent to the general assembly. The vote need not be unanimous, and generally speaking in terms of terminating a call, if the congregation does not vote for it, the elders and council still have the ability to go through with the termination. That often involves the main synodical offices.

~~~~~

It works much the same for most of the offices held in the church. A council president is not simply removed from office, nor would a council member just be removed. Sunday school teachers, while not held to such a standard, also cannot just be removed, but the vote doesn't go to the general assembly.

So, because of what our congregations vote on, our women simply cannot vote because it can, in certain circumstances, be authoritative over men. The bible does not say "women shall not have authority over the pastors", the bible says that women will not have authority over men in the matters of the church. That's actually explained pretty well in the link I offered earlier from our WELS doctrinal statements.

And often in cases where a call is going to be terminated "for cause" (reasons other than financial, etc) our district conferences get involved and the synod offices do too, nominally and usually to make sure that proper channels are being followed, and sometimes to provide counseling or alternative solutions.

 

[alexnbethmom]

i'm not a pastor (obviously), i'm not a pastor's wife, and i have not been a Lutheran long enough to know the ins and outs of everything, but i can tell you, that in my church (LCMS), our pastor received 2 different calls at 2 different times over the course of last year....he announced to us at the end of service that he had received these calls, that he would be going to see the church, etc, and meet with people (who, i don't know, the current pastor? the congregation? i'm just not sure), and was going to pray about the calling, asked us all to pray for him and his family, and would let us know his decision regarding it. he said that if he did accept the calling, he would be gone within the month. both times he declined, so he is still our pastor.

as far as what i can tell, the process does not take as long as you have indicated, but then again, i'm not a pastor.

 

[QuiltAngel]

In the LCMS, teachers are called if they hold a Lutheran Teacher's certificate. Pastors are called to the duties of being a Pastor; preaching and teaching the Word, Administering the Sacraments, etc. Teachers are called to teaching a specific class. Teachers can also be hired in the LCMS schools, these are ones that are not Lutheran or do not hold the certification as Lutheran Teacher.

The calling of the Pastor varies from congregation to congregation. When my husband has received Calls, he was interviewed one time. The Calls he accepted, he was not interviewed for. Many Pastors may take a trip to the calling church as they feel it helps them in making the decision as to accept the call or not. My husband does not do that. When a Pastor visits the calling congregation, he is usually talking with the Church Council.

My son-in-law is a DCE and he receives calls for his position too. He is called to work with the youth and young adults in his church.

Only Pastors are ordained ministers. Pastors, teachers and DCEs receive Divine Calls. What they are called to do are different as per their position. Called positions other than Pastor are referred to as commissioned ministers.

ETA: For the record, my husband and brother-in-law are Pastors, my niece is a Lutheran School teacher and my son-in-law is a DCE. My husband is the only one who has not had to deal with a call in the last six months. The other three received and accepted calls.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What's a DCE? I'm sure I'll hit myself upside the head as soon as I hear it, but I can't place the acronym at the moment.

Thanks for the info, Quilty.

So, it seems that both WELS and LCMS teachers receive calls. And it appears the LCMS considers the call to be a divine call.

 

[QuiltAngel]

DCE = Director of Christian Education. In this position, one usually works with the youth and young adults. That is what my SIL has done in both of his positions. Teachers and DCEs can be either male or female.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

DCE = Director of Christian Education. In this position, one usually works with the youth and young adults. That is what my SIL has done in both of his positions. Teachers and DCEs can be either male or female.

Okay, we have those too...it just becomes part of their call. DCEs can serve in any teaching position, but their specialty in Childhood Education. We also have ECMs, which are those who work in the Early Childhood Ministries and ECDs, which are Early Childhood Directors. Those are the ones who run the preschools/child care centers. And, same here, they can be male or female, although the majority of ECMs and ECDs are women.

We also have youth ministers. Those are laymen who take special classes at our college and our sem but are not "full blown" pastors.

 

[QuiltAngel]

DCE's are different than teachers. It is a separate degree and they are not certified to teach in the Lutheran Schools. Their emphasis is more on Sunday School, Mid Week School, Youth Groups, etc.

 

[seajoy]

Ok...but it sounded like it wasn't a call for teachers in the LCMS the way Rev was talking back a couple of pages. I'm still afraid I don't understand. I'm sure he said the only Divine Call is to a pastor...but maybe I didn't understand it right.

 

[DaRev]

Rev - are teachers 'called' in the LCMS, or just 'hired'? I'm getting confused. In the WELS, my kids received calls.

Actually it's both. Teachers that are trained in the synodical university system are considered "Ministers of Religion-Commissioned" and they are called to their positions within the Church. This classification includes teachers, DCE's, DCO's, DFS's, and (I believe) Deaconesses. LCMS schools can also hire teachers who are not "commissioned ministers" but simply lay people.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Actually it's both. Teachers that are trained in the synodical university system are considered "Ministers of Religion-Commissioned" and they are called to their positions within the Church. This classification includes teachers, DCE's, DCO's, DFS's, and (I believe) Deaconesses. LCMS schools can also hire teachers who are not "commissioned ministers" but simply lay people.

Ah, that makes more sense.

The WELS calls teachers who graduated from Martin Luther College or teachers who didn't graduate from there but have gone through certification classes at MLC. So someone who graduated from the local university, for example, would have to go through special classes to be called to teach at a WELS school.