lcms and wels diffs?

[DaRev]

Point is, I certainly won't be surprised if the LCMS actually adopts a resolution that ordaining women is perfectly okay...especially if they start talking about the scriptures in context of today's world, like many churches are doing. Women already have leadership positions in LCMS churches. The line between those positions and that of pastor is a very thin line.

That "thin line" that you refer to is only thin in the WELS because they make no distinction bewteen offices. They deny that the pastoral office is the one divinely established office in the Church, and they believe that all positions (I suppose including janitor and gardener?) equate with the preaching office established by God. The LCMS sees the Scriptural distinction between divine and man-made offices in the congregation, and the difference between them is quite distinct.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

There are several other places in Scripture that talks about the establishment of the pastoral office. 1 Corinthians 12 is talking about the gifts of the spirit which enables people to do certain things. It is not about the establishment of offices in the congregation. You are trying to make it say something it simply doesn't say.

Nope, I think it's pretty clear in what it says. God appoints these offices. It says so RIGHT THERE.

You may have been given the gift of being able to teach, but how does that equate to establishing the office of teacher in a congregation? It doesn't. It simply means that you personally have the ability to teach.

See above.

Your sarcasm isn't necessary. I'm trying to have a civil conversation with you. Do you want to continue with this?

Not particularly. As Zec pointed out, it's easier to just agree to disagree and understand that until the LCMS changes her positions on fellowship and the role of women in the church, there will be no unity between your synod and ours.

Tell me how financial issues, property issues, hiring teachers, etc. are equated with the authority of the pastoral office? They simply don't.

I never said they did. But the bible doesn't say that the non-authority of women is only extended over the pastor. Unless you're going to claim that all men in the church are pastors.

It's not "loosey goosey". It's tied directly to the Scriptural teaching regarding the pastoral office. Having women serve in man made positions does not equate with ordaining them into the one divinely established office. If the WELS can't see that distinction that is so clear in Scripture, then that's their problem.

And again, that's not what I said. Having women in authority over men in the church is against the bible. The bible does not limit that authority to just being pastors. Your synod is actually the one trying to make the bible say something it doesn't...rather, they're trying to pretend that the bible doesn't say something when it does.

You believe that women in leadership roles in the church is okay. We do not.

You believe that fellowship with other churches who do not believe the same as you is okay. We do not.

Those are the crux of the matter of the differences in WELS vs LCMS.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

That "thin line" that you refer to is only thin in the WELS because they make no distinction bewteen offices. They deny that the pastoral office is the one divinely established office in the Church, and they believe that all positions (I suppose including janitor and gardener?) equate with the preaching office established by God. The LCMS sees the Scriptural distinction between divine and man-made offices in the congregation, and the difference between them is quite distinct.

well now there you're quite wrong.

Obviously we see a difference between a pastoral calling and a teacher calling.

Where we don't see a difference is whether God has ordained these callings.

You don't believe your teachers or elders, etc. are divinely called. We do.

You allow women authority over men. We don't.

It's really rather simple.

 

[DaRev]

Nope, I think it's pretty clear in what it says. God appoints these offices. It says so RIGHT THERE.

Well, until you are able to comprehend the concept of "context", you'll never get it. That chapter in 1 Corinthians has nothing to do with establishing offices in a congregation, it is talking about spiritual gifts given to individuals. There's a HUGE difference.

I never said they did. But the bible doesn't say that the non-authority of women is only extended over the pastor. Unless you're going to claim that all men in the church are pastors.

And again, that's not what I said. Having women in authority over men in the church is against the bible. The bible does not limit that authority to just being pastors. Your synod is actually the one trying to make the bible say something it doesn't...rather, they're trying to pretend that the bible doesn't say something when it does.

The non-authority of women taught in the Scripture is in the context of the one divinely established office in the Church, the pastoral office. Context clearly shows this. Again, until you can comprehend the context, you'll never see it correctly. I'm not "making" the Scriptures say anything. I'm simply reading them in the context that they are written.

You believe that women in leadership roles in the church is okay. We do not.

We believe that women are given spiritual gifts that can be used in certain ways within the congregation in man-made offices. (See 1 Corinthians 12) We believe that the office of the pastoral ministry is the one office established by God in the Church, and that only men are called to this office. That's what the Scriptures teach. That is what we believe.

 

[DaRev]

Obviously we see a difference between a pastoral calling and a teacher calling.

Where we don't see a difference is whether God has ordained these callings.

You don't believe your teachers or elders, etc. are divinely called. We do.

And there is the difference. Scripture makes a distinction between the pastoral office and other man-made offices. Only the pastoral office is divinely established, thus the divine call only pertains to the pastoral office. The WELS equates all offices in the congregation the same as the pastoral office. This is the error they make. The Scriptures make this clear distinction, but the WELS either don't see it or they simply ignore it.

You allow women authority over men. We don't.

Because the ban on women's authority in the congregation is limited only to the one divinely established office, the pastoral office. There is nothing in the Scriptures that prohibits a woman from being a treasurer or a recording secretary or a school principal for that matter.

It's really rather simple.

Then why can't you see it?

 

[QuiltAngel]

not that you're aware of, anyway.

Let me repeat, there are no women ordained in the LCMS. Even President Kieschnick drew the line there. I heard him say several time in several years there will be now women pastors. President Harrison also says no women pastors.

Since you are so certain there are, please provide proof.

 

[Zecryphon]

There are no women ordained in LCMS congregations.

Did you even read what I wrote? I clearly said I didn't know if they were or weren't doing that. But I'm curious as to how you know what is going on in every single church in the LCMS in America. That's a lot of churches. How do you keep track of what each one is doing and still carry out your duties as pastor of your own church?

 

[DaRev]

Did you even read what I wrote? I clearly said I didn't know if they were or weren't doing that. But I'm curious as to how you know what is going on in every single church in the LCMS in America. That's a lot of churches. How do you keep track of what each one is doing and still carry out your duties as pastor of your own church?

Do you honestly believe that such an act would go unnoticed, especially with the likes of Herman Otten and Jack Cascione looking for any little thing to blast the LCMS about? It isn't hard to know what's going on in all of synod.

 

[Zecryphon]

Do you honestly believe that such an act would go unnoticed, especially with the likes of Herman Otten and Jack Cascione looking for any little thing to blast the LCMS about? It isn't hard to know what's going on in all of synod.

I really wish you would read what I've written and address that. I have no idea what would go unnoticed in the LCMS. I don't read Otten or Cascione. I leave discussions about what those two say to you and Rad. But are those two men the only watchdogs in the LCMS? And you still haven't answered the question posed to you earlier by me. How do you personally keep track of everything that every church in the LCMS does and still carry out your duties as pastor?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Let me repeat, there are no women ordained in the LCMS. Even President Kieschnick drew the line there. I heard him say several time in several years there will be now women pastors. President Harrison also says no women pastors.

Since you are so certain there are, please provide proof.

and I never said I was certain it was happening. I just know of instances where the line was crossed. The youth rally and that whole ordeal with the church in California...both of those were instances where women "worship leaders" were used incorrectly.

Please...don't stick your head in the sand and pretend that just because you don't know about doesn't mean it's not happening.

My BIGGER point is that the stance that LCMS has adopted concerning the role of women in the church opens itself to the idea that women can someday be pastors. I will not be surprised when that day comes.

 

[Zecryphon]

Well, until you are able to comprehend the concept of "context", you'll never get it. That chapter in 1 Corinthians has nothing to do with establishing offices in a congregation, it is talking about spiritual gifts given to individuals. There's a HUGE difference.

Why are you so convinced that your reading of the Scriptures here is correct while anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? I disagree with your assertion that the chapter in 1 Corinthians has nothing to do with establishing offices in the congregation. For it clearly says in verse 28:

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

You rail on about reading what is written, yet you somehow clearly seem to have missed the bolded and underlined portion of verse 28. It's crystal clear that God has appointed people to various roles in the church. That's what I'd call a Divine Call. What I find really interesting in your posts is that the only office you consider to be divinely established, is the one in which you currently serve. Why is that?

I really like the study note in the LSB on 1 Corinthians 12:28, it says:

"Unlike the list in vv 8-10, Paul here ranks the gifts and offices in the Church, placing preaching and teaching before the offices of service. He emphasizes the Gospel first, which leads to loving acts of service (see order in Acts 6:1-7). See p. 1902. However, preachers and teachers must regard themselves as united with the Body and as serving God's servants with their message. God's order is no basis for arrogance."

 

[twin.spin]

On the internet and in any Christian forum, don't just assume someone believes something, find out for certain. That's why I asked the question I did. When someone says "Jesus is fully human," but does not also include that He is fully divine at the same time, it sends up warning signs to me that the person I'm talking to may not believe Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man. Do you have scriptural references for Jesus "doing the learning curve like any human?"

Which statement of mine are you referring to with your opening sentence here? I said nothing about the attitude of Jews regarding tax collectors. I also said nothing about such an attitude keeping Matthew from holding the position. I don't think we have enough information on Judas' education to say he was or was not qualified to hold the position he did. Making an argument for either case is an argument from silence. A bad argument to make.

I see no evidence from verse 3 of Acts 1, that "these men" is the focus of the writer of Acts. There are many events covered in the book of Acts. To limit it to "these men" is to completely miss the point of the book. The words "them" and "they" can refer to more than just men as we see in verse 14 when the men and women were in the upper room praying together, united in thought and deed. You could refer to that gathering of people as "they" or "them" too.

Yeah, and we read that "these men" after they had returned from their journey, joined together with the women in the upper room in prayer in verse 14.

Act 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.
Act 1:13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.
Act 1:14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.

What does this have to do with anything? In fact, what does your entire post have to do with the topic of this thread which is the differences between the LCMS and the WELS?

When you mentioned about the attitudes of men towards women in the bible times ... I was making the point that if something was done based on attitudes, then there would be a plausible reason for why Matthew wasn't the treasurer when you thought it make sense for him to be. The attitude toward tax collectors was not favorable expecially a Jewish tax collector.

But for what ever reason, Judas was put in charge.

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About the "casting of lots" in scripture, that is one of the issues between LCMS and WELS. I don't recall it being expressed that women participated in the "casting of lots" which is our version of voting today.

I would say that only because the men joined the women in prayer doesn't infere anything more than that...which is also bad arguments. So then one must use other scripture, which I have.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Well, it doesn't get much clearer than THIS.

Great explanations in our doctrinal statement as to why we believe the way we do in regards to women's roles in the church.

 

[Zecryphon]

In post # 141, which you have since deleted, you said this:

IMO there wasn't any women as part of the traveling party group of "disciples" that we would consider the 12 (or the 72 that was sent out) that was with Jesus in his three year ministry.

I would like to know how you've reached the conclusion that there were no women that were with Jesus in His three year ministry. Because there examples all over the NT of women helping Jesus in His earthly ministry and even serving Him after His death, before His resurrection.

Do you have a copy of the Lutheran Study Bible? If so, go to page 1726, where it talks about Jesus and women and how they contributed to His ministry. Here is the note that precedes the chart on that page:

Women held a special place in the heart of Jesus. Women were often His most beloved disciples (though the term "disciple" is not clearly applied to a woman until Ac 9:36). While He chose only men for the apostolic ministry, women were often the focus of His ministry. Luke explains that women also loved Jesus and provided for His followers from their means. Women helped pay for the ministry. To learn more about this specific theme in Luke's Gospel, study the chart below.

I'll list here some women from this chart and their roles in Jesus' ministry.

Mary Magdalene (Mt 27:56,61; 28:1; Mk 15:40;47; 16:1,9-11; Lk 8:2; 24:10; Jn 19:25; 20:1-2, 11-18): A woman from Magdala, a town on the northwest shore of the Sea of Galilee. Jesus cast seven demons out of Mary. She followed Him, supported His ministry, and witnessed His crucifixion. She lingered at Jesus' tomb and was the first person to see Him after the resurrection, addresing Him as "Teacher" (Jn 20:16). he forbade her to cling to Him and sent her to tell the other disciples about His resurrection.

Mary from Galilee (Lk 24:10): One of the first witnesses of the resurrection. In a reversal of typical social order, Jesus appeared first to His female disciples.

Susanna (Luke 8:3): Susanna supported Jesus' ministry.

Joanna: (Luke 8:3, 24:10): The wife of Chuza, who managed the household of Herod (Antipas?). Joanna supported Jesus' ministry and witnessed His resurrection.

Also why do you want examples of women casting lots from the OT only? The casting of lots was done in the NT too. Two examples that leap to mind are when the guards cast lots for Jesus' clothes before His crucifixion and lots were cast by the disciples to vote on who should replace Judas Iscariot.

 

[DaRev]

And you still haven't answered the question posed to you earlier by me. How do you personally keep track of everything that every church in the LCMS does and still carry out your duties as pastor?

Conferences, periodicals, conventions, discussions with other pastors, etc.
It's not difficult.

 

[DaRev]

Why are you so convinced that your reading of the Scriptures here is correct while anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? I disagree with your assertion that the chapter in 1 Corinthians has nothing to do with establishing offices in the congregation. For it clearly says in verse 28:

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

You rail on about reading what is written, yet you somehow clearly seem to have missed the bolded and underlined portion of verse 28. It's crystal clear that God has appointed people to various roles in the church. That's what I'd call a Divine Call. What I find really interesting in your posts is that the only office you consider to be divinely established, is the one in which you currently serve. Why is that?

I really like the study note in the LSB on 1 Corinthians 12:28, it says:

"Unlike the list in vv 8-10, Paul here ranks the gifts and offices in the Church, placing preaching and teaching before the offices of service. He emphasizes the Gospel first, which leads to loving acts of service (see order in Acts 6:1-7). See p. 1902. However, preachers and teachers must regard themselves as united with the Body and as serving God's servants with their message. God's order is no basis for arrogance."

It still doesn't change the context of the chapter, which has to do with spiritual gifts given to individuals. In the NT the word "Church" refers to the gathering of individuals as the body of believers. The list given has to do with gifts given to individuals within the body of believers, not positions within the organization. They are two completely different things.

There also is no distinction made in that verse as to who these gifts are given. The prohibition of women in the pastoral office comes from other places, but there is no distinction made here as to whether or not women are given the gifts of "healing, helping, administrating" etc. No such distinction is made elsewhere in Scripture, either.

 

[DaRev]

Well, it doesn't get much clearer than THIS.

Great explanations in our doctrinal statement as to why we believe the way we do in regards to women's roles in the church.

But it still misses the distinction between the authoratative office in the church, and other positions where women's spiritual gifts can be used within the organization. That's the main difference. The WELS applies one stance to all things, where the LCMS sees the Biblical distinction.

 

[twin.spin]

In post # 141, which you have since deleted, you said this:

I would like to know how you've reached the conclusion that there were no women that were with Jesus in His three year ministry. Because there examples all over the NT of women helping Jesus in His earthly ministry and even serving Him after His death, before His resurrection.

Do you have a copy of the Lutheran Study Bible? If so, go to page 1726, where it talks about Jesus and women and how they contributed to His ministry. Here is the note that precedes the chart on that page:

Women held a special place in the heart of Jesus. Women were often His most beloved disciples (though the term "disciple" is not clearly applied to a woman until Ac 9:36). While He chose only men for the apostolic ministry, women were often the focus of His ministry. Luke explains that women also loved Jesus and provided for His followers from their means. Women helped pay for the ministry. To learn more about this specific theme in Luke's Gospel, study the chart below.

I'll list here some women from this chart and their roles in Jesus' ministry.

Mary Magdalene (Mt 27:56,61; 28:1; Mk 15:40;47; 16:1,9-11; Lk 8:2; 24:10; Jn 19:25; 20:1-2, 11-18): A woman from Magdala, a town on the northwest shore of the Sea of Galilee. Jesus cast seven demons out of Mary. She followed Him, supported His ministry, and witnessed His crucifixion. She lingered at Jesus' tomb and was the first person to see Him after the resurrection, addresing Him as "Teacher" (Jn 20:16). he forbade her to cling to Him and sent her to tell the other disciples about His resurrection.

Mary from Galilee (Lk 24:10): One of the first witnesses of the resurrection. In a reversal of typical social order, Jesus appeared first to His female disciples.

Susanna (Luke 8:3): Susanna supported Jesus' ministry.

Joanna: (Luke 8:3, 24:10): The wife of Chuza, who managed the household of Herod (Antipas?). Joanna supported Jesus' ministry and witnessed His resurrection.

Also why do you want examples of women casting lots from the OT only? The casting of lots was done in the NT too. Two examples that leap to mind are when the guards cast lots for Jesus' clothes before His crucifixion and lots were cast by the disciples to vote on who should replace Judas Iscariot.

I'm glad to read that you seem to understand that women can have an active role in church beyond ladies aid and alter guild. As long as you are of the understanding that the "support" role mentioned in Luke 8:3, Luke 8:3, 24:10 doesn't come to understand that these women did those things in a way that imposed their opinions in such a way that it went against the way the men wanted to do something.

Mary Magdalene wanted to cling to Him but listened when Jesus forbade her .... she relinguished her want to do something over what Jesus wanted. That in principle is the role of women and men in the church.

"Casting of lots" (in the church setting) is a good example of where women could step out from the "supportive" role that would ursurp the headship role of man. The function and direction of the church squarely rests upon the shoulders of man as per the example of God's creation in the Garden and Jesus.

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The reason I asked for examples in the OT is that if I were one of the disciples and wanted to use a method of choosing the person to replace Judas, a method that God would bless, I would have drawn upon how God himself instructed it on how and whom based on OT practices.

 

[Zecryphon]

Conferences, periodicals, conventions, discussions with other pastors, etc.
It's not difficult.

So, you're pretty much relying on information provided by others instead of what you've personally seen in each LCMS church in the nation. Got it.

 

[Zecryphon]

I'm glad to read that you seem to understand that women can have an active role in church beyond ladies aid and alter guild. As long as you are of the understanding that the "support" role Luke 8:3, Luke 8:3, 24:10
would be biblically applied.

"Casting of lots" is a good example.

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The reason I asked for examples in the OT is that if I were one of the disciples and wanted to use a method of choosing the person to replace Judas, a method that God would bless, I would have drawn upon how God himself instructed it on how and whom based on OT practices.

The point of my post was to show you that there were women in Jesus' earthly ministry. A link to the position of the WELS on women in the church has been provided by PW for everyone to read. Now is there anything else we can help you with?