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Interpretation.....you read it the way 'you' see it my friend. Doesnt mean you are correct.
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Your opinion is NOT how the Old Testament prophets prophesied. They very often mixed short term judgments by God with His ultimate judgment on the nations and the final restoration of Israel. If you do not know this, you should read the prophets again completely. Most people don't do this and have never done this.
Zephaniah is a perfect example of this.
"The LORD has taken away the judgments against you;
he has cleared away your enemies.
The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst;
you shall never again fear evil." Zeph 3:14
Are you really going to say that the Lord has been made the King of Israel and fulfilled this prophecy? The "Day of the Lord" which Zephaniah talks about always refers to a yet future time from them and us.
My reply to you continues to be the same as #82.Interpretation.....you read it the way 'you' see it my friend. Doesnt mean you are correct.
God promised Josiah that the calamity wouldn't happen while he lived because he was an obedient king. So, 23 years after he died the day of the Lord came when God poured out his wrath on Judah and Jerusalem using his servant Nebuchadnezzar.Here are some more observations about what is meant for what English versions translate as "near". And to be clear, this is for discussion. And will not be interested in responding to those who just want to attack and want to debate and argue. This is a continuation of my #87 comment.
I think a major point that has been forgotten in this discussion is that the New Testament verses that have been brought forward have their roots in Old Testament scriptures. That is, the New Testament authors obviously did not have the completion or even the majority of New Testament sources when they were writing. They were obviously Jews who had a deep familiarity with Old Testament prophetic language. "Last days" and the "coming of the Lord" were very much tied to the "Day of the Lord" which consistently shows up in the Old Testament prophets.
For example, Zephaniah 1:14 which was written during the time of King Josiah circa 620 BC.
"The great day of the LORD is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the LORD is bitter;
the mighty man cries aloud there." (ESV)
Here there it is even the superlative "great day". It is near but has not arrived yet. In fact, it is still "hastening fast". So even 600 years before the New Testament authors, the Day of the Lord had begun to approach but was not complete yet. How is this supposed to be understood?
There has been some discussion about the way God views time. What many have recognized over the centuries about a Day being as a 1000 years. There is the assumption (there is no specific proof in Scripture) that all of human history will encompass a period of 7000 years. This is based on the Creation Week as a type for the Great Week. The Day of the Lord is equated with the rule of Christ in Israel and the rule of Christ is during the final millennium. Therefore, if the 7th Day is 1000 years, then the previous 6 Days are also periods of 1000 years.
This being the case, the Zephaniah passage was written in the 4th Day. The New Testament passages were written in the very beginning of the 5th Day. And they were anticipating and prophesying about the last 7th Day. When you consider what position the Days were in the Great Week, then, yes, the 7th Day is near and hastening quickly. For they were in the last half of the Great Week at that point.
Not really sure what your actual point is. None of what you wrote disqualifies anything in the content of Scripture that I pointed out.God promised Josiah that the calamity wouldn't happen while he lived because he was an obedient king. So, 23 years after he died the day of the Lord came when God poured out his wrath on Judah and Jerusalem using his servant Nebuchadnezzar.
There are many "day's of the Lord" in the old covenant.
And it would be wise not call the word of the Lord false like the Jews in Ezekiel's day did.
Ezekiel 12:
21Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 22“Son of man, what is this proverb that you have in the land of Israel:
‘The days go by,
and every vision fails’?
23Therefore tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘I will put an end to this proverb, and in Israel they will no longer recite it.’
But say to them: ‘The days are at hand when every vision will be fulfilled. 24For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations within the house of Israel, 25because I, the LORD, will speak whatever word I speak, and it will be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, O rebellious house, I will speak a message and bring it to pass, declares the Lord GOD.’ ”
26Furthermore, the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 27“Son of man, take note that the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now; he prophesies about the distant future.’
28Therefore tell them that this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘None of My words will be delayed any longer. The message I speak will be fulfilled, declares the Lord GOD.’ ”
It turns out that the Peshitta is a different dialect of Aramaic than the Galilean dialect Jesus and the apostles would have spoken.
My reply to you continues to be the same as #82.
Your opinion is NOT how the Old Testament prophets prophesied. They very often mixed short term judgments by God with His ultimate judgment on the nations and the final restoration of Israel. If you do not know this, you should read the prophets again completely. Most people don't do this and have never done this.
Zephaniah is a perfect example of this.
"The LORD has taken away the judgments against you;
he has cleared away your enemies.
The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst;
you shall never again fear evil." Zeph 3:14
Are you really going to say that the Lord has been made the King of Israel and fulfilled this prophecy? The "Day of the Lord" which Zephaniah talks about always refers to a yet future time from them and us.
Hmmmmmm.... it so funny. There are 2 of you that think I'm denying that Zephaniah prophesied against the current situation during the time of Josiah. I didn't. I even stated that specifically.Sure, just provide a NT passage that quotes from Zephaniah 1 as being about the future in order to support your position……but…….I’ll help you out here:
You won’t be able to find one, thus, we know this is your personal interpretation of the passage, which foists the man made theory of the millennial day onto it.
Instead, I suggest simply reading the text, and “let it say what it says” with an understanding of the historical context. Zephaniah was written literally near to the soon coming Babylonian conquest, or “day of the Lord”. Zephaniah 1-3:8 explains that the day of the Lord was the wrath of God upon the nations of the earth, specifically: phillistia, Moab, Ammon, Assyria, and Jerusalem.
Starting in chapter 2, we can see all these nations that will face the day of the Lord
Zephaniah 2:1-21Gather yourselves, gather together, O shameful nation,
2before the decree takes effecta
and the day passes like chaff,
before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you,
before the Day of the LORD’s anger comes upon you.
Philistines:
Zephaniah 2:5 O nation of the Cherethites! The word of the LORD is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines: “I will destroy you,
and no one will be left.”
Moabites and ammonites:
Zephaniah 2:9 9Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the LORD of Hosts,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will be like Sodom
and the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
Assyrians:
Zephaniah 2:13 13And He will stretch out His hand against the north
and destroy Assyria;
He will make Nineveh a desolation,
as dry as a desert.
Jerusalem:
Zephaniah 1:12, 3:1-2 12And at that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and punish the men settled in complacency,h who say to themselves, The LORD will do nothing, either good or bad.’
1Woe to the city of oppressors,
rebellious and defiled!
2She heeded no voice;
she accepted no correction.
She does not trust in the LORD;
she has not drawn near to her God.
Historically, we know that the kingdoms of the Assyrians, Philistines, Moabites, and ammonites all came to to end with the Babylonian conquest. They literally no longer exist. Jerusalem was the only one prophesied to be restored at the end of Zephaniah 3. And guess what? They totally were restored to the land following 70 years in captivity.
Thus the “near” day of the Lord was literally near, when Moab, Ammon, philistia, Assyria, and Jerusalem were all literally wiped out by the Babylonians. No need to change the definition of words or foist man made theories onto the text, when the passages are actually read under the historical context.
I was, and suspect Claninja was also replying to this.For example, Zephaniah 1:14 which was written during the time of King Josiah circa 620 BC.
"The great day of the LORD is near,
near and hastening fast;
the sound of the day of the LORD is bitter;
the mighty man cries aloud there." (ESV)
And yet again, you cut and paste content that does not match with your particular world view. Deal with the elephant in your room - the last part of Zephaniah 3 - particularly Zeph 3:14.I was, and suspect Claninja was also replying to this.
And yet again, you cut and paste content that does not match with your particular world view. Deal with the elephant in your room - the last part of Zephaniah 3 - particularly Zeph 3:14.
You aren't disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with God and the clear statements in His Word. Big difference.Yiu certainly dont like anybody disagreeing with your interpretations of scripture do you my friend?
Where in the post I replied to did you mention Zeph 3:14, which you said was a continuation of #87? And yes it does match my world view completely. Why would you be snarky about cutting and pasting to an old man with carpal tunnel syndrome? That's just mean. Don't you do any cut and paste of scripture? Like Zeph 3:14, or do you type it all out? It's just easier for me to cut and paste, so that's what I'll do if you don't mind.And yet again, you cut and paste content that does not match with your particular world view. Deal with the elephant in your room - the last part of Zephaniah 3 - particularly Zeph 3:14.
OK. Thanks for outlining your point of view. Now I know the type of person that is responding to the plain teaching of Scripture. There's nothing snarky about anything. If someone obviously ignores the actual point of discussion, I will call anyone out on it. Plain and simple.Where in the post I replied to did you mention Zeph 3:14, which you said was a continuation of #87? And yes it does match my world view completely. Why would you be snarky about cutting and pasting to an old man with carpal tunnel syndrome? That's just mean. Don't you do any cut and paste of scripture? Like Zeph 3:14, or do you type it all out? It's just easier for me to cut and paste, so that's what I'll do if you don't mind.
However, as far as Zeph 3:14--
Christ wasn't to become king of Israel, He came as king of Israel. John 1:49Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are King of Israel." (not will be)
As far as 70 year exile, I take it as from from Solomon's temple being destroyed in 586 to Zerubbabel's temple being built in 516. Only then could there be a full restoration of the law. Otherwise there were several returns starting with what you said.
You aren't disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with God and the clear statements in His Word. Big difference.
Hmmmmmm.... it so funny. There are 2 of you that think I'm denying that Zephaniah prophesied against the current situation during the time of Josiah. I didn't. I even stated that specifically.
But, until and unless you deal with the last part of Zephaniah 3 - especially 3:14 - as I specifically pointed out in my previous comment, none of what you wrote is even pertinent. None of it. And what's interesting is that both you very intentionally did not even address that elephant in your rooms.
Oh, and by the way, you (and many other people) are very much mistaken when you say Jerusalem and the Jews "were restored to the land following 70 years in captivity." The Babylonian exile was not for 70 years. No where does the Bible ever say that. Not anywhere. That's a common Biblical myth from people who don't know how to read the text. It's so easy to prove as well.
Nebuchadnezzar's final siege and destruction of Jerusalem takes place in the summer of 586 BC. Cyrus, the emperor of Medo-Persia makes his proclamation that the Jews were free to return in 538 BC. That is NOT a period of 70 years. I go into very much detail about all of this in my 7 part video series on the 70 Weeks Prophecy in Daniel.
It really is amazing to me that when someone has a mental block, they truly can not accept factual evidence even when it is pointed out to them. Let's try again. I know it will probably be futile. But it will help others with an open mind.You used Zephaniah 1:14 as evidence that the word “near” doesn’t actually mean near in human understanding. And then applied the millennial day theory to make near mean “Gods time”. Thus making “near” mean thousands of years.
The problem is that we can’t just change the definition of words, and God can actually tell us when things are far off (daniel 8:26).
Zephaniah describes the “day of the Lord” as one of wrath upon Jerusalem and the nations in chapters1-3:8, and chapter 2 gives us who those nations are specifically: Assyria, philistia, Ammon, and Moab. All these nations were destroyed via the Babylonian conquest. The impending Babylonian conquest over Jerusalem, Assyria, philistia, Moab, and Ammon is the day of the Lord event that was literally near. This is pretty straight forward if you read the text without imposing the man made millennial day theory of onto it.
Chapter 3 only tells us that Gods remnant of Israel would be restored. Chapter 3 provides no mention of a “near” restoration of Israel, and only that it will happen post the destruction of Jerusalem and the nations, so I don’t really know where you are going with that.
As far as the 70 years of Babylonian captivity, I mean the 70 years of sabbath rest for the land. Israel was restored to the land after 70 years of desolation. The captivity is part of that. I’m not overly dogmatic on it.
1 chronicles 36: 21So the land enjoyed its Sabbath rest all the days of the desolation, until seventy years were completed, in fulfillment of the word of the LORD through Jeremiah
Jeremiah 25:11 1And this whole land will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon for seventy years.
Jeremiah 29:10 10For this is what the LORD says: “When Babylon’s seventy years are complete, I will attend to you and confirm My promise to restore you to this place.
It really is amazing to me that when someone has a mental block, they truly can not accept factual evidence even when it is pointed out to them. Let's try again. I know it will probably be futile. But it will help others with an open mind.
Zeph 1:3 "For the day of the LORD is near" - the 1st time where the "day of the Lord" is mentioned in Zephaniah. Specifically saying it is "near". And this term's meaning is what I've already dealt with and how it was also used by other Old Testament prophets.
But in addition, notice it is tied to God's sacrifice and that he has consecrated His guests. So if this was truly referring to the Babylonian destruction in 50 years' time, who were God's guests and what was the sacrifice?
Zephaniah uses the same terms through his entire prophecy. There is no obvious difference. He does not make a separation between the upcoming desolation by Babylon and the ultimate desolation by the "King of Israel" (Zeph 3:15). It is simply impossible to say that Zephaniah's prophecy was completely fulfilled by 586 BC with the destruction of Jerusalem and the final exile.
Lol, my “continued insistence”? Didn’t I just say I wasn’t that dogmatic about it? Or did you not read my post?As far as your continued insistence that there were 70 years of exile or "desolation",
Just what I expected from you. Still not taking God's word literally. Still trying to read into the text instead of reading the text.You haven’t been providing any factual evidence, so that may be the reason….
But I know you don’t like factual evidence because it’s just “word games” or a “fools game”.
Right, the passage says the day of the Lord is “near”. The oracle of Zephaniah also specifically describes the day of the Lord as a day of wrath on Jerusalem, Assyria, Moab, Ammon, and Philistia. So was the destruction of Jerusalem, Assyria, Ammon, Moab, and philistia literally near? Absolutely. No need to change the definition of words to fit any man made millennial day theory, or explain that God can’t tell us when things are literally far off.
Understanding Hebrew historical contexts, Hebrew grammar, as well as idiomatic and hyperbolic expressions are very important for solid hermeneutics, especially since the NT does not quote from any part of Zephaniah chapters 1-2.
So as to the sacrifice- the Jews. As to the guests- the Babylonians.
Here are some commentaries from varying eschatological positions, including premil:
Benson
“For the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice — The slaughter of the wicked is called a sacrifice, because it is, in some sense, an atonement to God’s justice. He hath bid his guests — This is an allusion to the custom of those who offered sacrifices, which was to invite their friends to partake of the feasts which accompanied them. So here God is said to invite his guests, that is, the Babylonians, who were to reap the spoils of the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem, and of the desolation of Judea”
Matthew Poole
“The day of the Lord; a day of vengeance from the Lord. The Lord hath prepared a sacrifice; the wicked among the Jews, whom he will sacrifice by the Chaldean’s sword.”
“Lord … prepared a sacrifice—namely, a slaughter of the guilty Jews, the victims due to His justice (Isa 34:6; Jer 46:10; Eze 39:17).
Jamie-fausset-brown
“bid his guests—literally, "sanctified His called ones" (compare Isa 13:3). It enhances the bitterness of the judgment that the heathen Chaldeans should be sanctified, or consecrated as it were, by God as His priests, and be called to eat the flesh of the elect people; as on feast days the priests used to feast among themselves on the remains of the sacrifices [Calvin]. English Version takes it not of the priests, but the guests bidden, who also had to "sanctify" or purify themselves before coming to the sacrificial feast (1Sa 9:13, 22; 16:5). Nebuchadnezzar was bidden to come to take vengeance on guilty Jerusalem (Jer 25:9).”
Gill (Premill).
“for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice: his people the Jews, who were to fall a victim to his vengeance, and a sacrifice to his justice, to atone in some measure for the injury done to it by their sins; thus they that had offered sacrifice to idols, and neglected the sacrifices of the Lord, and especially the great sacrifice of Christ typified by them, the only proper atoning one, should themselves become a sacrifice to the just resentment of God; this he had prepared in his mind, determined should be done, and would bring about in his providence; see Isaiah 34:6, he hath bid his guests: or "called ones" (o); the Chaldeans, whom he invited and called to this sacrifice and feast: or whom he "prepared", or "sanctified" (p); he prepared them in his purpose and providence; he set them apart for this service, and called them to it; to be the sacrificers of this people, and to feast upon them; to spoil them of their goods and riches, and enjoy them. These guests may also design, as Kimchi observes, the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, invited to feast upon the slain; see Ezekiel 39:17.”
Vs 9 begins with “for then”. “Then” is adverb that can sometimes mean ”at that time” but this depends on the surrounding grammar. if the adverb “then” is followed by an imperfect verb it means of the future:
“b. of future time (usually where some emphasis is intended), with imperfect”- brown-driver-Briggs
Vs 9 reads: “for (conjunction) then (adverb), i will restore (imperfect verb). Based on the grammar, it less likely to be talking about the same time as anything before it. Therefore, we know vs 9 begins to talk about a future event from, and NOT the same time as, the previous wrath on Jerusalem, Assyria, Ammon, Moab, and philistia. Vs 9 is an obvious transition point in the oracle from the previous wrath to God restoring Israel.
Edit: interestingly enough, after reviewing the other “at that time” passages you provided, specifically 1:9, 3:19, and 3:20, they all contain different Hebrew words then 3:9. While 1:9, 3:19, and 3:20 all contain the Hebrew words for “that time”, 3:9 is different and contains “for then”. This is just more evidence that vs 9 is the clear transition.
Lol, my “continued insistence”? Didn’t I just say I wasn’t that dogmatic about it? Or did you not read my post?
Just what I expected from you. Still not taking God's word literally. Still trying to read into the text instead of reading the text.
No. Your opinions on the text are pretty clear. It seems you consider all prophecy to be already fulfilled. I've already shown how that is not true from Scripture. Not going to argue about it. Just not interested in spending that energy.Well I’m glad you expected I would provide evidence for my position. But…..
I have no idea what the rest means. Which part did I not take literally?
The word “near”? No I take that literally to mean near, as the destruction of Jerusalem, Assyria, philistia, Ammon, and Moab was literally near.
The wrath on Jerusalem, philistia, Assyria, Ammon, and Moab? No I, i take that literally as historical record demonstrates this was done through God’s hammer: Babylon
The restoration of Israel post the Babylonian exile? No, I believe that literally happened.
The words “for then” in 3:9 being literally different that the words “that time” in 1:9, 3:19, and 3:20? No, i believe they are literally different words.
So maybe you could elaborate a little more instead of that little generic drive by you posted?
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