Last-days schizophrenia

[CCWoody]

Chris Yokel
August 11, 2004



Last-days schizophrenia


I have been fascinated by two seemingly separate trends in American Christianity in recent years. On the one hand, evangelicals have almost whole-heartedly embraced the LB craze—that’s Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' Left Behind fiction series for those of you who’ve been in solitary confinement for the past 10 years.

Essentially, Christians have gotten psyched up over the idea that the whole world is going down the toilet as Satan runs rampant on earth to the point that, very soon, an evil global leader will arise and inaugurate an unparalleled reign of terror.

That may be a rather bald interpretation, but that’s the basic gist of the LaHaye-Jenkins phenomenon (and the slew of hangers-on and copycats). Basically, then, this popular evangelical view is dominated by catastrophe and failure. The world is inevitably going to grow worse and worse until Jesus rescues us in the rapture just before things get really bad. (As the current predominate view among evangelicals, you can find this view expressed in nonfictional works by LaHaye, and many others as well: John Haggee, Jack van Impe, Hal Lindsey, etc.)

Meanwhile, another interesting trend is simultaneously taking place in American Christianity without so much as a mental reference to the first: Involvement in politics and cultural issues.

Christians march against abortion. Christians lobby against gay marriage. Christians protest over the idea of U.N. monitored elections. Christians decry filth in the entertainment industry. They run for office, start radio programs, magazines, organizations, etc.—all to change society for the better. They do all this by day, and read Armageddon by night. Hello! Brain check!

If the world is going to hell in a hand basket, why bother? Why are we polishing the brass on U.S.S. America if breaching her hull will only hasten the return of Christ? Why fight gay marriage? inappropriate behavior with animals is just around the corner. After all, if things get worse, won’t Christ just come back sooner? If we concede to U.N. authority and oversight during this upcoming election, won’t that just hasten a One World Order, which means a quick rapture? Even if we don't hasten the end, what sense does it make to fight the inevitable decline? It’s seems like we’re hanging ourselves by our own theological noose here.

If we were consistent with our doctrine, we would all crawl back into our church basements, close our eyes, shut our ears to the world, and wait for Jesus to come back. Either that or go sell our clothes and stand on a hill.

Perhaps instead, conservative Christians should go back and restudy our Bibles, because this last-days craze is turning into schizophrenia.

 

[drstevej]

"You are not paranoid if they really are after you."

~ Woody Allen

 

[DIVAMOM]

You were right on until the last few sentences. I think the answer here is indeed Grey. But I believe the correct answer to the end times as Christians is for us to continue to share the message of the Gospel. Tell others about Christ, and help them understand that they can make it throught these terrible times when they put their all in Him. We have a hard duty of trying to lessen the decline of society so that we can bring others to Him but at the same time having the knowlege that the end is near.
I believe we should all be in our Bibles getting closer to our Lord while still out there and preaching the Gospel because we are all the priests now.
With Love.

 

[CCWoody]

The Soup Nazi

"No Soup for You."

~ Mr. Dispensation on Seinfeld.

 

[CCWoody]

You were right on until the last few sentences. I think the answer here is indeed Grey. But I believe the correct answer to the end times as Christians is for us to continue to share the message of the Gospel. Tell others about Christ, and help them understand that they can make it throught these terrible times when they put their all in Him. We have a hard duty of trying to lessen the decline of society so that we can bring others to Him but at the same time having the knowlege that the end is near.
I believe we should all be in our Bibles getting closer to our Lord while still out there and preaching the Gospel because we are all the priests now.
With Love.

I think the author's point (I'm not the author, BTW) is that Premill Dispensationalist's actions are not consistent with their Eschatology. I recently had another friend make the same point on another forum.

I agree that we should not hide out and wait for the great escape. Of course, I think this rapture followed by 7 years of Tribulation before a judgment which isn't even a final judgment and this 1000 year reign of hypocrisy is the stuff of fantasy novels so I am naturally not looking for any of this, but the return of Christ to judge the world, just exactly as our ancient creeds say. But, I also agree with the author that it is pointless to polish the brass on the deck of the Titanic after she has been hit.

I do have a question for you. You said: "We have a hard duty of trying to lessen the decline of society so that we can bring others to Him...." How does the moral prosperity of any society impact how the Lord brings people into his church? For 300 years, the Romans tried to stamp out this faith which wouldn't even burn incense to Ceaser because it might appear that there was another king but the Lord. Yet, the faith prospered over ground wet with the blood of the saints. And this society's sexual preferences make ours look tame by comparrison.

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

Chris Yokel
August 11, 2004



Last-days schizophrenia


I have been fascinated by two seemingly separate trends in American Christianity in recent years. On the one hand, evangelicals have almost whole-heartedly embraced the LB craze—that’s Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' Left Behind fiction series for those of you who’ve been in solitary confinement for the past 10 years.

Essentially, Christians have gotten psyched up over the idea that the whole world is going down the toilet as Satan runs rampant on earth to the point that, very soon, an evil global leader will arise and inaugurate an unparalleled reign of terror.

That may be a rather bald interpretation, but that’s the basic gist of the LaHaye-Jenkins phenomenon (and the slew of hangers-on and copycats). Basically, then, this popular evangelical view is dominated by catastrophe and failure. The world is inevitably going to grow worse and worse until Jesus rescues us in the rapture just before things get really bad. (As the current predominate view among evangelicals, you can find this view expressed in nonfictional works by LaHaye, and many others as well: John Haggee, Jack van Impe, Hal Lindsey, etc.)

Meanwhile, another interesting trend is simultaneously taking place in American Christianity without so much as a mental reference to the first: Involvement in politics and cultural issues.

Christians march against abortion. Christians lobby against gay marriage. Christians protest over the idea of U.N. monitored elections. Christians decry filth in the entertainment industry. They run for office, start radio programs, magazines, organizations, etc.—all to change society for the better. They do all this by day, and read Armageddon by night. Hello! Brain check!

If the world is going to hell in a hand basket, why bother? Why are we polishing the brass on U.S.S. America if breaching her hull will only hasten the return of Christ? Why fight gay marriage? inappropriate behavior with animals is just around the corner. After all, if things get worse, won’t Christ just come back sooner? If we concede to U.N. authority and oversight during this upcoming election, won’t that just hasten a One World Order, which means a quick rapture? Even if we don't hasten the end, what sense does it make to fight the inevitable decline? It’s seems like we’re hanging ourselves by our own theological noose here.

If we were consistent with our doctrine, we would all crawl back into our church basements, close our eyes, shut our ears to the world, and wait for Jesus to come back. Either that or go sell our clothes and stand on a hill.

Perhaps instead, conservative Christians should go back and restudy our Bibles, because this last-days craze is turning into schizophrenia.

[/QUOTE]

If the world is going to hell in a hand basket, why bother?

Luke 19:13 ~And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, OCCUPY till I come.This verse is a parable, but it is referring to Jesus as the "nobleman", and we are His servants in the earth. Occupy means to.. take or hold possession or control of. Do you think that we as Christians are supposed to let the devil have control over the earth, even though some of us believe that all hell is fixing to break lose? NO WAY!!! He gave us dominion over the earth, and He better find us doing His work when He comes back. Not sitting in a church basement with our hands over our eyes.
I personally believe that the last days are exciting, no matter what comes my way. That just means that I will look upon the One who died for me, which I believe will be in the near future. Schizophrenia and Prophecy unfolding are not the same thing. If someone is getting "schizoid" over talk about the end times, IE:Armegeddon, antichrist, and any other views addressed on this site, then I seriously doubt their faith and trust in the Lord. God left His Word for us, and it is full of endtimes events. It shouldn't ba a big surprise to bible readers.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Of course, I think this rapture followed by 7 years of Tribulation before a judgment which isn't even a final judgment and this 1000 year reign of hypocrisy is the stuff of fantasy novels so I am naturally not looking for any of this,

So then John didn't know what he was talking about? Or perhaps his "Revelation" wasn't from God?

 

[CCWoody]

So then John didn't know what he was talking about? Or perhaps his "Revelation" wasn't from God?

The funny thing here is that John doesn't even plainly say what the Dispensationalists claim he is saying about the Millennium.

The early Christians all knew this, which is why our creeds say that Christ is coming to JUDGE, not setup a kingdom.

When I have time, I'll come back and show you....

 

[FreeinChrist]

Chris Yokel
August 11, 2004

Last-days schizophrenia
I have been fascinated by two seemingly separate trends in American Christianity in recent years. On the one hand, evangelicals have almost whole-heartedly embraced the LB craze—that’s Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins' Left Behind fiction series for those of you who’ve been in solitary confinement for the past 10 years.

Essentially, Christians have gotten psyched up over the idea that the whole world is going down the toilet as Satan runs rampant on earth to the point that, very soon, an evil global leader will arise and inaugurate an unparalleled reign of terror.

That may be a rather bald interpretation, but that’s the basic gist of the LaHaye-Jenkins phenomenon (and the slew of hangers-on and copycats). Basically, then, this popular evangelical view is dominated by catastrophe and failure. The world is inevitably going to grow worse and worse until Jesus rescues us in the rapture just before things get really bad. (As the current predominate view among evangelicals, you can find this view expressed in nonfictional works by LaHaye, and many others as well: John Haggee, Jack van Impe, Hal Lindsey, etc.)

Meanwhile, another interesting trend is simultaneously taking place in American Christianity without so much as a mental reference to the first: Involvement in politics and cultural issues.

Christians march against abortion. Christians lobby against gay marriage. Christians protest over the idea of U.N. monitored elections. Christians decry filth in the entertainment industry. They run for office, start radio programs, magazines, organizations, etc.—all to change society for the better. They do all this by day, and read Armageddon by night. Hello! Brain check!

If the world is going to hell in a hand basket, why bother? Why are we polishing the brass on U.S.S. America if breaching her hull will only hasten the return of Christ? Why fight gay marriage? inappropriate behavior with animals is just around the corner. After all, if things get worse, won’t Christ just come back sooner? If we concede to U.N. authority and oversight during this upcoming election, won’t that just hasten a One World Order, which means a quick rapture? Even if we don't hasten the end, what sense does it make to fight the inevitable decline? It’s seems like we’re hanging ourselves by our own theological noose here.

If we were consistent with our doctrine, we would all crawl back into our church basements, close our eyes, shut our ears to the world, and wait for Jesus to come back. Either that or go sell our clothes and stand on a hill.

Perhaps instead, conservative Christians should go back and restudy our Bibles, because this last-days craze is turning into schizophrenia.

I don't see any particular conflict between these two things (last days beliefs vs social consciousness).

Recognizing what is to come does not negate our present duty, as followers of Christ, to work for the betterment of society, to reach others for Christ, and to display Christ in how we live.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The funny thing here is that John doesn't even plainly say what the Dispensationalists claim he is saying about the Millennium.

The early Christians all knew this, which is why our creeds say that Christ is coming to JUDGE, not setup a kingdom.

When I have time, I'll come back and show you....

I disagree. John seems to say exactly what dispensationists believe. And many early Christians believed that there will be a millennial reign on earth, like this one:

Justin Martyr, ( 110-165 AD )Dialogue with Trypho:

“Accordingly He(346) rested, i.e., ceased, when He came, after whom, in the times of this dispensation wrought out by Him amongst men,(347) it was requisite that such gifts should cease from you; and having received their rest in Him, should again, as had been predicted, become gifts which, from the grace of His Spirit's power, He imparts to those who believe in Him, according as He deems each man worthy thereof.” LXXXVII



“For if one should wish to ask you why, since Enoch, Noah with his sons, and all others in similar circumstances, who neither were circumcised nor kept the Sabbath, pleased God, God demanded by other leaders, and by the giving of the law after the lapse of so many generations, that those who lived between the times of Abraham and of Moses be justified by circumcision, and that those who lived after Moses be justified by circumcision and the other ordinances-to wit, the Sabbath, and sacrifices, and libations,(360) and offerings;..” XCII



Regarding the future 1000 years dispensation:

“But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years(317) in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.” LXXX



Chapter LXXXI.-He Endeavours to Prove This Opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse.

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: `For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days.(318) For the young man shall be an hundred years old;(319) but the sinner who dies an hundred years old,(320) he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound.(321) Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, saith the Lord.'(322) Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, `According to the days of the tree [of life(323) ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, `The day of the Lord is as a thousand years, '(324) is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell(325) a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, `They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'(326)

 

[GW]

Free:
I still see no conflict. People will not stop being human, and while society can get better overall for a time in some ways, it gets worse in others.

GW:
The globe is infinitely better off than it was 2000 years ago. Because of Christianity, the knowledge of God is no longer geographically and tribally restricted. Christianity takes the covenant and extends it everywhere. And, everywhere Christianity is accepted, paganism is defeated. The world, because of the powers of the Cross and Christ's rulership, has become improved and will continue to become improved according to God's sovereign determination.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Free:
I still see no conflict. People will not stop being human, and while society can get better overall for a time in some ways, it gets worse in others.

GW:
The globe is infinitely better off than it was 2000 years ago. Because of Christianity, the knowledge of God is no longer geographically and tribally restricted. Christianity takes the covenant and extends it everywhere. And, everywhere Christianity is accepted, paganism is defeated. The world, because of the powers of the Cross and Christ's rulership, has become improved and will continue to become improved according to God's sovereign determination.

The globe is better in many ways....but at least 66% of the world is not Christian. They are Hindu, Buddhist, Islamic, Bahai, etc. There are wars, there is famine, genocide, hatred, murder, stealing, etc., etc. Within Christianity there is the everpresent problem of false teachers.

As I stated, I see no conflict with 1) believing that the world could be better if all were Christian and that we should strive to rech the ENTIRE world with the gospel, to fulfill the Great Comission....and 2) that there will be those who reject Christ and reject Christianity, that human nature remains the same in these folks, and that the world will be rejecting of God in a future time....briging in the Tribulation and leading to the Second coming of Christ.

Reaching folks for Christ does not guarantee peace and tranquility in the world. That will happen when Christ returns.

 

[GW]

FREE:
The globe is better in many ways....but at least 66% of the world is not Christian.

GW:
Christianity is very young. When compared to those advances made under the Mosaic system, the true Christian faith has established its unstoppable supremacy by every metric. Christ's Kingdom has spread like a virus all over the world in 20 centuries. In 20 more centuries, the entire globe will consist of mostly Christianized nations. From there, as the covenant laws continue to find greater application and integration, those countries will achieve a sanctification on par with the greatest of saints. Nothing can stop this progress, for the powers of the Cross and Christ's Church are without equal.


FREE:
As I stated, I see no conflict with 1) believing that the world could be better if all were Christian

GW:
The world will be better and always improving over time. It has no option. There is no power on earth that can overcome Christ's mediatory priesthood and supreme teachings.



FREE:
Reaching folks for Christ does not guarantee peace and tranquility in the world.

GW:
Of course it does.

 

[ikester]

is not Asia Minor largely Islamic..........has not the the truth been rejected in a large scale.....

broad is the gate of destruction.....many enter into.......

Jesus preached persecution in his name.....no peace....till the prince of peace returns......

how much of this world has heard the light...but rejected it........even the light of America has become dim.......

how many christian churches in Europe have closed and become mosque's.....

how about a 70 ad perspective to these prophecy's........

if Revelation was written at the time of the tribulation......why have the ten kings received no kingdom....

when was Ezekiel 38 & 39 fulfilled........

when was Daniel 11 & 12 fulfilled.....

come on GW give me insight .............

 

[FreeinChrist]

is not Asia Minor largely Islamic..........has not the the truth been rejected in a large scale.....

broad is the gate of destruction.....many enter into.......

Jesus preached persecution in his name.....no peace....till the prince of peace returns......

how much of this world has heard the light...but rejected it........even the light of America has become dim.......

how many christian churches in Europe have closed and become mosque's.....

how about a 70 ad perspective to these prophecy's........

if Revelation was written at the time of the tribulation......why have the ten kings received no kingdom....

when was Ezekiel 38 & 39 fulfilled........

when was Daniel 11 & 12 fulfilled.....

come on GW give me insight .............

 

[GW]

Just the Facts:
Time is short my brother...please hear my words.

GW:
The time is not short, my brother.

(Then again, premillennialists claim that "short" and "soon" and "at hand" mean "many thousands of years." Who can make any sense out of that? What utter chaos.)

 

[kimber1]

*MOD HAT ON


thread is closed for review by staff. there is alot of full preterism being promoted in here which is not in compliance with forum specific rules.


*MOD HAT OFF

 

[ksen]

MOD HAT ON:

Thread is back open and the Full Preterism posts have been removed.

Please refrain from discussing Full Preterism in the CO areas.

Any further discussion on that subject will have the posts removed and an alert will be issued to the offender.

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

I am not a ful preterist and speak against it all the time why were my post deleted?

 

[CCWoody]

Hi

I am not a ful preterist and speak against it all the time why were my post deleted?

Couldn't tell you, but one reason would be that you were replying to the posts of a Full Preterist and citing him. Your post was removed for the cite, not your words. But, you would have to ask the mods.