Large Diet study finds raised stroke risk in plant-based diets

[Quid est Veritas?]

Risks of ischaemic heart disease and stroke in meat eaters, fish eaters, and vegetarians over 18 years of follow-up: results from the prospective EPIC-Oxford study

They did a 48000 subject dietary study with meat-eating, pescetarian, and vegetarian/vegan subgroups. Following them up over a number of years, they found the meat diet had a 13% and 22% respectively higher risk of ischaemic heart disease (heart attacks and such) than the other two, however the plant-based diets had a raised stroke risk of 20%.

All that this shows is what we have known for centuries: we need a golden mean. Obviously our modern diet is too rich in meat; but humans are naturally omnivorous, so cutting it out in entirety is not healthy either.

 

[FireDragon76]

Ischemic heart disease is a bigger killer, though.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Ischemic heart disease is a bigger killer, though.

Relative to population, there are far more meat eaters than those following a primarily plant-based diet, so obviously ischaemic heart disease abounds. Not to mention comorbities like obesity or diabetes that worsen it even more (though also associated with stroke). The study corrected for blood pressure and such, which strengthened the association. If we all went Vegan, stroke may be a bigger killer, who knows? Certainly we'd have far more morbidity and disability from it, certainly.

 

[FireDragon76]

Relative to population, there are far more meat eaters than those following a primarily plant-based diet, so obviously ischaemic heart disease abounds. Not to mention comorbities like obesity or diabetes that worsen it even more (though also associated with stroke). The study corrected for blood pressure and such, which strengthened the association. If we all went Vegan, stroke may be a bigger killer, who knows? Certainly we'd have far more morbidity and disability from it, certainly.

Maybe we would live longer before the stroke happened. There's alot of ways to look at this issue.

 

[FireDragon76]

Some vegetables have anti-coagulant properties, perhaps this is the reason. I know even though Omega-3 supplements are trendy for a host of medical conditions, they can thin your blood a great deal and aren't advised before surgery.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Maybe we would live longer before the stroke happened. There's alot of ways to look at this issue.

We'll have better data in a few years as vegan diets and their ilk have increased in popularity. We do know however that they lack B12 and have low levels of choline, so by nature we can't argue them 'better' than a hypothetical mixed diet (that would of course contain far less meat than the average meat eater consumes).

Interesting enough, the study concluded within the plant-based group itself, there were about 10 less cases of cardiovascular disease (which could range from heart attacks to merely stable angina pain), but 3 more strokes. The pescetarians actually came away with the overall lowest risk of heart attack itself, but the confidence intervals of the subgroup analysis is a little less clear.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Some vegetables have anti-coagulant properties, perhaps this is the reason. I know even though Omega-3 supplements are trendy for a host of medical conditions, they can thin your blood a great deal and aren't advised before surgery.

They mention studies done in Japan and China that linked low levels of animal protein and exogenous cholesterol with increased haemorrhagic stroke, and hypothesise that may be causal. The problem with linking it to specific constituents of plants is that meat diets aren't plant free - so those people are also consuming those substances, just in smaller amounts. That is why this rather suggests the cause may be the absence of nutrients in meat, or lower levels thereof, as we do know plant based diets require supplementation.

It reminds me of Rabbit starvation, how someone with a full belly of rabbit meat will die of hunger, due to the lack of fat therein.

 

[FireDragon76]

If lack of cholesterol is a problem, there are potential sources of saturated fat in a vegan diet - coconut oil being the most obvious.

I'm not a complete vegetarian but I do try to limit the amount of meat I eat, especially red meat. I've been eating Quorn a few times a week. Usually I add coconut oil, as I'm trying to remain in low-level ketosis much of the time, and get most of my energy from fat (and I combine it with "one meal a day" type eating).

Many middle American diets are absolutely horrible. At church all they would have were donuts much of the time. Diabetes runs in my family and I was gaining weight eating like that, and hungry all the time.

Years ago I tried vegan diets following standard recommendations. I was hungry all the time. Too many carbs, not enough fat.

 

[mama2one]

nutritious diets are so important

yesterday read an article about a teen who ended up blind from years of a poor diet

very sad

Teenager Loses Sight After Living on French Fries, Chips and White Bread for Years

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

If lack of cholesterol is a problem, there are potential sources of saturated fat in a vegan diet - coconut oil being the most obvious.

I'm not a complete vegetarian but I do try to limit the amount of meat I eat, especially red meat. I've been eating Quorn a few times a week. Usually I add coconut oil, as I'm trying to remain in low-level ketosis much of the time, and get most of my energy from fat (and I combine it with "one meal a day" type eating).

Many middle American diets are absolutely horrible. At church all they would have were donuts much of the time. Diabetes runs in my family and I was gaining weight eating like that, and hungry all the time.

Years ago I tried vegan diets following standard recommendations. I was hungry all the time. Too many carbs, not enough fat.

I assume they'll be running many more dietary studies till we can see what is responsible. Vegan diets have anyway been changing nowadays, with all these meat substitutes on the market. Thing is, we don't really know exactly how much of what we should be eating.

This is more a lesson in the kneejerk response to demonise a type of foodstuff. In general, moderation and a diverse diet seems a good rule of thumb.

 

[FireDragon76]

nutritious diets are so important

yesterday read an article about a teen who ended up blind from years of a poor diet

very sad

Teenager Loses Sight After Living on French Fries, Chips and White Bread for Years

My brother has a friend like that. Diabetes is literally killing him. He stepped on a needle, it got lodged in his foot, and he didn't feet it for days.

 

[FireDragon76]

I assume they'll be running many more dietary studies till we can see what is responsible. Vegan diets have anyway been changing nowadays, with all these meat substitutes on the market. Thing is, we don't really know exactly how much of what we should be eating.

This is more a lesson in the kneejerk response to demonise a type of foodstuff. In general, moderation and a diverse diet seems a good rule of thumb.

One difference between hunter-gatherer diets and modern civilized diets seems to be the lack of "staples" in their diet, and that does seem to be a place where alot of "diseases of civilization" take root.

 

[D.A. Wright]

This study is limited to extremely narrow indicators. Factors contributing to degenerative disease are many, not the least of which are food manufacturing and preparation processes, including those of meat, salt, and sugars, none of which are addressed in the article.

For instance, meat products prepared with natural salt (including all trace minerals) and unrefined sugar are much healthier than plant products prepared with processed table salt, processed cane sugar, and HFCS, in spite of the inverse comparative quality of the original, unprocessed products.

There is a reason that people of third-world countries tend to die quickly, and mostly of infectious diseases. And the ones who do live the longest and healthiest lives generally have good hygiene and plant-based diets to thank for it.

This study, like so many others, shows correlation, not cause.

God gave Adam and Eve a plant-based diet. Flesh-eating was not permitted among God's people until after the flood, which was also when the lifespan of mankind began to decrease dramatically.

 

[HitchSlap]

Certainly we'd have far more morbidity and disability from it, certainly.

You think there would be higher morbidity and disability, from what exactly?

 

[mama2one]

disability from strokes

we have relatives still alive after strokes & living with disabilities caused by the stroke
full function doesn't always return even with rehab

fyi- they were not vegan nor vegetarian

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

You think there would be higher morbidity and disability, from what exactly?

From cerebrovascular incidents - Stroke. If plant-based diets increase the risk, then the prevalence would increase if more people started ommiting meat.

 

[SLP]

God gave Adam and Eve a plant-based diet. Flesh-eating was not permitted among God's people until after the flood, which was also when the lifespan of mankind began to decrease dramatically.

Lifespans have been increasing, historically, not decreasing.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Lifespans have been increasing, historically, not decreasing.

From nearly 1000 years to less than 80 would be a decrease, wouldn't it? I wouldn't use the word "dramatically" for no reason.

 

[durangodawood]

...All that this shows is what we have known for centuries: we need a golden mean. Obviously our modern diet is too rich in meat; but humans are naturally omnivorous, so cutting it out in entirety is not healthy either.

So why, according the the Bible, would God have prescribed a "not healthy" plant only diet for a portion of human history?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

So why, according the the Bible, would God have prescribed a "not healthy" plant only diet for a portion of human history?

Depends what you mean by the concept of Eden, or such. The point though is that unhealthy or healthy would be moot theologically prior to the Fall, as neither death nor knowledge that something could be 'bad' exists, and traditionally things like illness are considered consequences of the Fall.