Ignores the context of Malachi 4:1-3.You are correct the righteous are not in the lake of fire for the wicked have been consumed and the fire has gone out only thing left is the ashes of the wicked to be walked upon.
Ignores the context of Malachi 4:1-3.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Psalm 145King James Version (KJV)
145 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
David wrote the above
Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens:
David is in the grave how can he bless thy name for ever and ever, praise thy name for ever and ever.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The phrase for ever and ever means till death or completion not eternity that is the only way the above verses make sense.
You either did not read this or you did not understand it. Try again, “’The ages of the ages , i.e. , to the remotest age, for ever and ever.’ Figures of Speech used in the Bible, E.W. Bullinger” “i.e.” means”that is.” Thus “aionion ton aionion that is forever and ever.”This is from Bullinger’s book “figures of Speech used in the Bible. “Forever and ever” is not a contradiction it is a figure of speech.” And Read this again.
"A noun is repeated in the genitive plural in order to express very emphatically the superlative degree which does not exist in Hebrew. See under Idiom . Thus this figure is a kind of Enallage ( q.v. ), or exchange, by which a noun in the genitive plural, is used instead of a superlative adjective.” Bullinger.” If you can provide scholarship which refutes this please do so, your unsupported opinion is not relevant. That is just reacting from your assumptions/presuppositions.
I believe I did address one item in your post ".That the torment is everlasting, unending, "for ever and ever" is reinforced by the words "no rest day nor night." 10,000 times 10.000 eons from now God's unchanging word will still read "no rest day and night."
The only torment referenced in the Bible that is for ever and ever is that of the wicked in the lake of fire. The verse I quoted indicates a different interpretation of ever and ever needs to be understood, from the Bible, as the wicked are consumed and where they were burnt up in the lake of fire is where the righteous will walk on their ashes. So the fire must not still be burning for them to walk on the ashes.
Not arrogance, confidence I am better taught and better informed. I did not and do not get my information from random websites on-line. I cite standard reference works such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, historical evidence such as the Talmud and ECF, lexicons such as BAGD, BDB, and Greek and Hebrew grammars. The so-called evidence I see in response is as I said are quotes from random websites, blogs, forums, books by unknown authors etc. Just because someone writes a book, and it is online, that does not make that person qualified in whatever subject he is writing about. The LDS published their translation of the Bible, the Joseph Smith Translation, the JWs published their translation of the Bible, the New World Translation. None of the people who wrote these translations were qualified in Hebrew or Greek.Ok with me, by your arrogance you appear to think that you are above the rest of the folks on this forum.
Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
YLT Jehovah reigneth -- to the age, and for ever!'*
Der Alter said: [This contradicts your other quote from the YLT]
The other quote is clearly telling it like how it should be:
*YLT intro says "for ever" "eternal" "everlasting" should be understood as "age-during" everywhere in Scripture.
http://www.ccel.org/bible/ylt/ylt.htm
Revelation 14:11, YLT, for one example, has "ages of ages".
And what makes YLT the end all, be all authority on Biblical Hebrew and Greek?
Once again from the OT. The 1917 Jewish Publication Society, the 225 BC LXX, and the Hebrew. Note native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars translated the Hebrew phrase "l'olam w'ad" and the Greek phrase "ton aiona kai ep' aiona" as "for ever and ever." Without contradictory evidence, and there is none, the Jewish scholars knew how to properly translate Hebrew into Greek and English. It does not matter how many biased 21st century "scholars" such as YLT say "aionion ton aionon and olam ad do not mean for ever and ever" their objections are meaningless without evidence. I provide evidence not opinion!
JPS Exodus 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
LXX Exo 15:18 κύριος βασιλεύων τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾿ αἰῶνα καὶ ἔτι.
Exo 15:18 יהוה ימלך לעלם ועד׃
You posted YLT as if this one translation disproved the sources I cited. Someone expressing a different translation is not proof that the 1917 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation of the OT is wrong. Such evidence would consist of detailed studies of individual words which show they do not and cannot mean what the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the JPS say they mean.Who said YLT was the be all, etc? Don't be ridiculous. It's just one of a number of sources i posted.
The JPS was translated by a society of native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars it was published in 1917. The JPS and the list of translators can be found at this link.As for your comments above re the 100 year old JP Society, you provided no article title, page number or link so it can be read in context. Neither did you state what alleged scholar made your translation.
I have been a member of this forum for more than 15 years. I have been involved in this same discussion many times and have yet to see any credible, verifiable, historical or lexical evidence which conclusively shows that e.g. that the JPS translation is wrong. See my first comment above.How do you know their is no "contradictory evidence"? And what would constitute such in your opinion. Bald claims such as this have little weight with any critically thinking persons.
Here are quotes and links to ECF earlier than Origen who describe unending punishment.I have already posted for you references to Origen & other ECF who did not agree with your alleged dead Jewish scholar(s).
Jesus did not talk like it was a fictitious place.All this argument about a fictitious place, borrowed from pagan mythologies. Just can't bring yourselves to the place where you can demote the from plenary, verbal inspiration of the Bible to some other interpretive matrix.
Jesus did not talk like it was a fictitious place.
Jesus emptied himself before he incarnated. As a man, he was a pious Jew. Of course would believe the things he was taught.
Is it your contention that Jesus did not know that there was really no "hades" where the rich man was "tormented in flames" as he said? That Jesus did not know there was really no "Gehenna" where "the fire that never shall be quenched, Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" as He said? That Jesus did not know there was really no "furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" as He said?
Yes. He was teaching what any Pharisee would teach.
OHC, my advice is to simply put him on your ignore list.Ok with me, by your arrogance you appear to think that you are above the rest of the folks on this forum.
well, i dont think it's irrelevant...Irrelevant. Those biased errant translations don't address the topic of what they thought the translation of Exodus 15:18 or Revelation 14:11 should be. The translation & meaning of those verses is the subject. Please try to stay on topic. BTW i already posted re the church fathers in the other thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/eternal-suffering.7950108/page-29
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