LAKE OF FIRE (eternal pain)

[Der Alte]

You are correct the righteous are not in the lake of fire for the wicked have been consumed and the fire has gone out only thing left is the ashes of the wicked to be walked upon.

Ignores the context of Malachi 4:1-3.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Ignores the context of Malachi 4:1-3.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Psalm 145King James Version (KJV)
145 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.

2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.

David wrote the above

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens:

David is in the grave how can he bless thy name for ever and ever, praise thy name for ever and ever.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

The phrase for ever and ever means till death or completion not eternity that is the only way the above verses make sense.

 

[ClementofA]

Der Alter said: You either did not read this or you did not understand it.

IMO you are not getting what i wrote.

Also how many Greek Interlinears render the Greek phrase as "ages of the ages" or "eons of the eons" & similarly rather than "forever and ever"? Most of them, the vast majority?

Der Alter said: My interlinear....

I have read 4 that differ, so 80% so far disagree with your view.

How many Greek Interlinears render the phrases in Revelation as "forever & ever" compared those that oppose that?

Why did you switch the discussion of the phrase from the book of Revelation to Exodus?

Der Alter: You don’t seem to be paying attention. This is not my word....

This was your words: "All your argumentation and copy/pastes from biased universalist websites does not change the fact that αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων/aion ton aionon means "for ever and ever." "

You haven't proven that by a long shot. In fact the weight of evidence thus far is strongly against your viewpoint, even without considering all the portions of my posts you refused to even read. With them it should be considered a landslide.

Der Alter said: I quoted from the Hebrew OT [etc]

Just saying your sources trump mine doesn't make it so. Omitting, ignoring, lightly dismissing them and constantly failing to answer questions doesn't help inspire faith in your position.

Der Alter comments: OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed. [l’olam va’ed translated by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars in the JPS as “for ever and ever.”]

Ignores all the translations & comments i posted including this from Strongs re the LXX (Greek Septuagint translation by Hebrew scholars centuries BC):

ABP_Strongs The LORD reigning into the eon, and unto the eon, and still!
http://studybible.info/compare/Exodus 15:18

Do you see the self contradictory "forever and ever" there?

Der Alter said: You accept anything posted online, forums.

Actually i don't accept anything posted online & am quite selective since much of it is crap.

 

[Der Alte]

Psalm 145King James Version (KJV)
145 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
David wrote the above
Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens:
David is in the grave how can he bless thy name for ever and ever, praise thy name for ever and ever.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The phrase for ever and ever means till death or completion not eternity that is the only way the above verses make sense.

One, the fact that a word is used hyperbolically does not change its inherent meaning. For example, I might say "I haven't seen you for ages." Is that the same length of time in e.g. "the bronze age?"
.....ThiThis is the standard heterodox practice, quoting a verse out-of-context trying to prop up false doctrine. In chapter 3 the writer of Ecclesiastes did not know where a man's spirit went at death.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? ​

Your proof text is not about man's eternal fate. The phrase "under the sun" occurs 27 times in Eccl. Six of those in chap. 9.

Ecc_9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc_9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Ecc_9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.
Ecc_9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Ecc_9:13 This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me: ​

Your out-of-context proof text is right there in a series of verses talking about things done under the sun, not the eternal fate of mankind, and 9:5 is between 2 vss. which say "all things/anything done under the sun."
If we twist vs. 9 to refer to man's eternal fate then it means that nobody gets any reward after death and the memory of everyone is forgotten forever. However understood in context vs. 5 means "the dead know not any thing,[under the sun] neither have they any more a reward; [under the sun] for the memory of them is forgotten. [under the sun]"

 

[ClementofA]

You either did not read this or you did not understand it. Try again, “’The ages of the ages , i.e. , to the remotest age, for ever and ever.’ Figures of Speech used in the Bible, E.W. Bullinger” “i.e.” means”that is.” Thus “aionion ton aionion that is forever and ever.”This is from Bullinger’s book “figures of Speech used in the Bible. “Forever and ever” is not a contradiction it is a figure of speech.” And Read this again.

"A noun is repeated in the genitive plural in order to express very emphatically the superlative degree which does not exist in Hebrew. See under Idiom . Thus this figure is a kind of Enallage ( q.v. ), or exchange, by which a noun in the genitive plural, is used instead of a superlative adjective.” Bullinger.” ​

If you can provide scholarship which refutes this please do so, your unsupported opinion is not relevant. That is just reacting from your assumptions/presuppositions.

Here is what Bullinger actually wrote, and which opposes your opinions. From Bullinger's notes on Revelation 14:11 (Companion Bible):

"for . . . ever = unto ages of ages. Greek. eis (App-104.) aionas aionon."

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bul.html

He also says "aion means "age" in appendix 151 and therein makes no mention of it ever meaning 'eternal' or anything else.

http://www.therain.org/appendixes/

In the same appendix he constantly has aion as "age" and also this:

"eis ton aiona tou aionos [to (Appendix 104. vi) the age of the age]..." for Hebrews 1:8 which the KJV renders "forever and ever".

Further along Bullinger wrote these:

"eis tous aionas ton aionon [to (Appendix 104. vi) to the ages of the ages]"(for Revelation 14:11 & other verses.)

"eis pasas tas geneas tou aionos ton aionon [to (Appendix 104. vi) all the generations of the age of the ages" (for Eph.3:21).

Even for aionios he opposes your view:

"aionios, of or belonging to an age...."

And likewise re olam he states:

" 'olam. This word is derived from 'alam (to hide), and means the hidden time or age, like aion (see below, II. A), by which word, or its Adjective aionios, it is generally rendered in the Septuagint."

So evidently Bullinger does not support the translations you like, but rather opposes them.

 

[ClementofA]

YLT Jehovah reigneth -- to the age, and for ever!'*

Der Alter said: [This contradicts your other quote from the YLT]

The other quote is clearly telling it like how it should be:

*YLT intro says "for ever" "eternal" "everlasting" should be understood as "age-during" everywhere in Scripture.

http://www.ccel.org/bible/ylt/ylt.htm

Revelation 14:11, YLT, for one example, has "ages of ages".

 

[SkyWriting]

I believe I did address one item in your post ".That the torment is everlasting, unending, "for ever and ever" is reinforced by the words "no rest day nor night." 10,000 times 10.000 eons from now God's unchanging word will still read "no rest day and night."

The only torment referenced in the Bible that is for ever and ever is that of the wicked in the lake of fire. The verse I quoted indicates a different interpretation of ever and ever needs to be understood, from the Bible, as the wicked are consumed and where they were burnt up in the lake of fire is where the righteous will walk on their ashes. So the fire must not still be burning for them to walk on the ashes.

Good point.

The solution is that God resides outside of time.
So, basically anytime you mention influence
from God, you can toss in "everlasting" as much
as you please.

It's not actually a "day and night forever" event.
Time spent in Heaven or Hell is timeless.

 

[Der Alte]

Ok with me, by your arrogance you appear to think that you are above the rest of the folks on this forum.
Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Not arrogance, confidence I am better taught and better informed. I did not and do not get my information from random websites on-line. I cite standard reference works such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, historical evidence such as the Talmud and ECF, lexicons such as BAGD, BDB, and Greek and Hebrew grammars. The so-called evidence I see in response is as I said are quotes from random websites, blogs, forums, books by unknown authors etc. Just because someone writes a book, and it is online, that does not make that person qualified in whatever subject he is writing about. The LDS published their translation of the Bible, the Joseph Smith Translation, the JWs published their translation of the Bible, the New World Translation. None of the people who wrote these translations were qualified in Hebrew or Greek.

 

[Der Alte]

YLT Jehovah reigneth -- to the age, and for ever!'*
Der Alter said: [This contradicts your other quote from the YLT]
The other quote is clearly telling it like how it should be:
*YLT intro says "for ever" "eternal" "everlasting" should be understood as "age-during" everywhere in Scripture.
http://www.ccel.org/bible/ylt/ylt.htm
Revelation 14:11, YLT, for one example, has "ages of ages".

And what makes YLT the end all, be all authority on Biblical Hebrew and Greek?
Once again from the OT. The 1917 Jewish Publication Society, the 225 BC LXX, and the Hebrew. Note native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars translated the Hebrew phrase "l'olam w'ad" and the Greek phrase "ton aiona kai ep' aiona" as "for ever and ever." Without contradictory evidence, and there is none, the Jewish scholars knew how to properly translate Hebrew into Greek and English. It does not matter how many biased 21st century "scholars" such as YLT say "aionion ton aionon and olam ad do not mean for ever and ever" their objections are meaningless without evidence. I provide evidence not opinion!

JPS Exodus 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
LXX Exo 15:18 κύριος βασιλεύων τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾿ αἰῶνα καὶ ἔτι.
Exo 15:18 יהוה ימלך לעלם ועד׃ ​

Oh by the way YLT transliterate יהוה/YHWH as Jehovah. The correct transliteration is Yahweh.

 

[ClementofA]

And what makes YLT the end all, be all authority on Biblical Hebrew and Greek?
Once again from the OT. The 1917 Jewish Publication Society, the 225 BC LXX, and the Hebrew. Note native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars translated the Hebrew phrase "l'olam w'ad" and the Greek phrase "ton aiona kai ep' aiona" as "for ever and ever." Without contradictory evidence, and there is none, the Jewish scholars knew how to properly translate Hebrew into Greek and English. It does not matter how many biased 21st century "scholars" such as YLT say "aionion ton aionon and olam ad do not mean for ever and ever" their objections are meaningless without evidence. I provide evidence not opinion!

JPS Exodus 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
LXX Exo 15:18 κύριος βασιλεύων τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾿ αἰῶνα καὶ ἔτι.
Exo 15:18 יהוה ימלך לעלם ועד׃ ​

Who said YLT was the be all, etc? Don't be ridiculous. It's just one of a number of sources i posted.

As for your comments above re the 100 year old JP Society, you provided no article title, page number or link so it can be read in context. Neither did you state what alleged scholar made your translation.

How do you know their is no "contradictory evidence"? And what would constitute such in your opinion. Bald claims such as this have little weight with any critically thinking persons.

I have already posted for you references to Origen & other ECF who did not agree with your alleged dead Jewish scholar(s).

 

[Der Alte]

Who said YLT was the be all, etc? Don't be ridiculous. It's just one of a number of sources i posted.

You posted YLT as if this one translation disproved the sources I cited. Someone expressing a different translation is not proof that the 1917 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation of the OT is wrong. Such evidence would consist of detailed studies of individual words which show they do not and cannot mean what the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the JPS say they mean.

As for your comments above re the 100 year old JP Society, you provided no article title, page number or link so it can be read in context. Neither did you state what alleged scholar made your translation.

The JPS was translated by a society of native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars it was published in 1917. The JPS and the list of translators can be found at this link.
http://biblehub.com/jps/

How do you know their is no "contradictory evidence"? And what would constitute such in your opinion. Bald claims such as this have little weight with any critically thinking persons.

I have been a member of this forum for more than 15 years. I have been involved in this same discussion many times and have yet to see any credible, verifiable, historical or lexical evidence which conclusively shows that e.g. that the JPS translation is wrong. See my first comment above.

I have already posted for you references to Origen & other ECF who did not agree with your alleged dead Jewish scholar(s).

Here are quotes and links to ECF earlier than Origen who describe unending punishment.

Justin Martyr- First Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass
And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: "Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched; "110 and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753

Justin Martyr First Apology Chapter 19
And that it is better to believe even what is impossible to our own nature and to men, than to be unbelieving like the rest of the world, we have learned; for we know that our Master Jesus Christ said, that “what is impossible with men is possible with God,” and, “Fear not them that kill you, and after that can do no more; but fear Him who after death is able to cast both soul and body into hell.” And hell is a place where those are to be punished who have lived wickedly, and who do not believe that those things which God has taught us by Christ will come to pass

Justin Martyr- Second Apology [a.d. 110-165.]
For everywhere, whoever is corrected by father, or neighbour, or child, or friend, or brother, or husband, or wife, for a fault, for being hard to move, for loving pleasure and being hard to urge to what is right (except those who have been persuaded that the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire,
A certain woman lived with an intemperate4 husband; she herself, too, having formerly been intemperate. But when she came to the knowledge of the teachings of Christ she became sober-minded, and endeavoured to persuade her husband likewise to be temperate, citing the teaching of Christ, and assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.
But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them. I or thus did both all the prophets foretell, and our own teacher Jesus teach.14
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-47.htm#P3966_758753

Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 63
In the Apocalypse also, we read the anger of the Lord threatening, and saying, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God mixed in the cup of His anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torments shall ascend up for ever and ever; neither shall they have rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image.”
2. Since, therefore, the Lord threatens these torments, these punishments in the day of judgment, to those who obey the devil and sacrifice to idols, how does he think that he can act as a priest of God who has obeyed and served the priests of the devil; . .

Cyprian Epistle 30 Chapter 7
He has prepared heaven, but He has also prepared hell. He has prepared places of refreshment, but He has also prepared eternal punishment. He has prepared the light that none can approach unto, but He has also prepared the vast and eternal gloom of perpetual night.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Refutation of all Heresies Book 9 Chapter 23
But (they assert) that God is a cause of all things, and that nothing is managed or happens without His will. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unquenchable fire.

Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato 3
Of which voice the justification will be seen in the awarding to each that which is just; since to those who have done well shall be assigned righteously eternal bliss, and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is unquenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them.
Tatian’s [A.D. 110-172] Address Chapter 13
The soul is not in itself immortal, O Greeks, but mortal. Yet it is possible for it not to die. If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality.

Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] De Principiis Part First
the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. The philosophers are familiar as well as we with the distinction between a common and a secret fire. Thus that which is in common use is far different from that which we see in divine judgments, whether striking as thunderbolts from heaven, or bursting up out of the earth through mountain-tops; for it does not consume what it scorches, but while it burns it repairs. So the mountains continue ever burning; and a person struck by lighting is even now kept safe from any destroying flame. A notable proof this of the fire eternal! a notable example of the endless judgment which still supplies punishment with fuel! The mountains burn, and last. How will it be with the wicked and the enemies of God?

Origen [A.D. 185-230-254] De Principiis Book 2 Chapter 3
Nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.

Minucius Felix [A.D. 210] The Octavius Chapter 35
Nor is there either measure or termination to these torments. There the intelligent fire burns the limbs and restores them, feeds on them and nourishes them. As the fires of the thunderbolts strike upon the bodies, and do not consume them; as the fires of Mount Aetna and of Mount Vesuvius, and of burning lands everywhere, glow, but are not wasted; so that penal fire is not fed by the waste of those who burn, but is nourished by the unexhausted eating away of their bodies.

Clement of Rome [a.d. 30-100.]
Envy brought down Dathan and Abiram alive to Hades, through the sedition which they excited against God's servant Moses.
On account of his hospitality and godliness, Lot was saved out of Sodom when all the country round was punished by means of fire and brimstone, the Lord thus making it manifest that He does not forsake those that hope in Him, but gives up such as depart from Him to punishment and torture.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-05.htm#P171_20841

Clement of Alexandria Exhortation to the Heathen [153-193-217 AD]
And you know not that, of all truths, this is the truest, that the good and godly shall obtain the good reward, in as much as they held goodness in high esteem; while,on the other hand, the wicked shall receive meet punishment. For the author of evil, torment has been prepared; and so the prophet Zecharias threatens him: "He that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; lo, is not this a brand plucked from the fire? "120 What an infatuated desire, then, for voluntary death is this, rooted in men's minds! Why do they flee to this fatal brand, with which they shall be burned, when it is within their power to live nobly according to God, and not according to custom? For God bestows life freely; but evil custom, after our departure from this world, brings on the sinner unavailing remorse with punishment.
He bestows salvation, you sink down into destruction; He confers everlasting life, you wait for punishment, and prefer the fire which the Lord "has prepared for the devil and his angels."
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-50.htm#P2691_785581

Clement of Alexandria. The Instructor [Paedagogus] Bk 2
There was a certain man," said the Lord, narrating, "very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day." This was the hay. "And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man's gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table." This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father's bosom.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-53.htm#P3706_1120269

The Second Epistle of Clement.
For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments. For thus also saith the Scripture in Ezekiel, "If Noah, Job, and Daniel should rise up, they should not deliver their children in captivity."38 Now, if men so eminently righteous are not able by their righteousness to deliver their children, how39 can we hope to enter into the royal residence40 of God unless we keep our baptism holy and undefiled?
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-10/anf10-28.htm#P5819_852153

St. John Chrysostom Homily IX. [347-407]
This is no small subject of enquiry which we propose, but rather about things which are of the first necessity and which all men enquire about; namely, whether hell fire have any end. For that it hath no end Christ indeed declared when he said, "Their fire shall not be quenched, and their worm shall not die. [Mark chapter 8, verse 44 and Mark chapter 8, verse 46 and Mark chapter 8, verse 48]
As I said then; that it hath no end, Christ has declared. Paul also saith, in pointing out the eternity of the punishment, that the sinners "shall pay the penalty of destruction, and that for ever" (2 Thessalonians chapter 1, verse 9) And again, (1 Corinthians chapter 6, verse 9) "Be not deceived; neither fornicators. nor adulterers, nor effeminate, shall inherit the the kingdom of God." And also unto the Hebrews he saith, (Hebrews chapter 12, verse 14) "Follow peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man shall see the Lord." And Christ also, to those who said, "In thy Name we have done many wonderful works," saith, "Depart from Me, I know you not, ye workers of iniquity" (St. Matthew chapter 7, verse 22) And the virgins too who were shut out, entered in no more. And also about those who gave Him no food, He saith, (St. Matthew chapter 25, verse 46) "They shall go away into everlasting punishment."
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-12/npnf1-12-14.htm​

 

[Steve Petersen]

All this argument about a fictitious place, borrowed from pagan mythologies. Just can't bring yourselves to the place where you can demote the from plenary, verbal inspiration of the Bible to some other interpretive matrix.

 

[Der Alte]

All this argument about a fictitious place, borrowed from pagan mythologies. Just can't bring yourselves to the place where you can demote the from plenary, verbal inspiration of the Bible to some other interpretive matrix.

Jesus did not talk like it was a fictitious place.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Jesus did not talk like it was a fictitious place.

Jesus emptied himself before he incarnated. As a man, he was a pious Jew. Of course would believe the things he was taught.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus emptied himself before he incarnated. As a man, he was a pious Jew. Of course would believe the things he was taught.

Is it your contention that Jesus did not know that there was really no "hades" where the rich man was "tormented in flames" as he said? That Jesus did not know there was really no "Gehenna" where "the fire that never shall be quenched, Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" as He said? That Jesus did not know there was really no "furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" as He said?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Is it your contention that Jesus did not know that there was really no "hades" where the rich man was "tormented in flames" as he said? That Jesus did not know there was really no "Gehenna" where "the fire that never shall be quenched, Where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" as He said? That Jesus did not know there was really no "furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" as He said?

Yes. He was teaching what any Pharisee would teach.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes. He was teaching what any Pharisee would teach.

One would think that the "Son of God," as He self identified, would know and teach the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 

[ClementofA]

Der Alter said: You posted YLT as if this one translation disproved the sources I cited.

That is not the truth. Again, i tell you, I have provided a mountain of info in this thread in addition to YLT. As anyone with eyes to read can see the vast majority of it has been left unchallenged.

Der Alter said: Someone expressing a different translation is not proof that the 1917 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation of the OT is wrong. Such evidence would consist of detailed studies of individual words which show they do not and cannot mean what the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the JPS say they mean.

That's funny. You never even provided a direct reference to the article & page number of your alleged JPS translation. Does it even exist? Then you say that to prove it wrong (if it exists, of course) would require "detailed studies of individual words" blah blah blah. Will you hold the JPS to the same standard of proving their translation is better than others? Will you provide their evidence for their translation, if & when you ever provide an exact reference to their alleged translation? That is, if they have any to provide. Also, what are their theological biases? Do all scholars translate as they do? Obviously not.

Der Alter said: Here are quotes and links to ECF earlier than Origen who describe unending punishment.

Irrelevant. Those biased errant translations don't address the topic of what they thought the translation of Exodus 15:18 or Revelation 14:11 should be. The translation & meaning of those verses is the subject. Please try to stay on topic. BTW i already posted re the church fathers in the other thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/eternal-suffering.7950108/page-29

​

 

[Super Kal]

Ok with me, by your arrogance you appear to think that you are above the rest of the folks on this forum.

OHC, my advice is to simply put him on your ignore list.
i have met with and talked to other traditionalists who are nowhere near as arrogant and blatantly rude as he is.

 

[Super Kal]

Irrelevant. Those biased errant translations don't address the topic of what they thought the translation of Exodus 15:18 or Revelation 14:11 should be. The translation & meaning of those verses is the subject. Please try to stay on topic. BTW i already posted re the church fathers in the other thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/eternal-suffering.7950108/page-29

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well, i dont think it's irrelevant...
Der Alter is correct when he says that some of the early church did teach eternal torment... but he is wrong when he says that it was the majority view. the majority view before Tertullian was universal reconciliation. Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and Polycarp were all conditionalists, while Clement of Alexandria was the first one to outrightly teach that the "soul of a man" was inherently immortal...
now, I dont hold to that particular doctrine. UR teaches that ALL of mankind will be saved, and ALL will receive eternal life, regardless of whether that turned to Christ or not.
the Bible says the exact opposite in many different places, such as John 3:16, John 14:6, and Malachi 4:1-3 just to name a few... only the righteous will inherit the earth. only those who are in Christ will receive that gift, eternal life.

the wicked do not receive that gift, because they never went through Christ to receive it... if they never went through Christ, then they are not going to live forever.
that's why i think Universal Reconciliation, or "Christian universalism", is no different than Unitarian Universalism...

unitarian universalism = it doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus or not, you're gonna get saved
christian universalism = it doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus or not, you're gonna get saved

and to answer the question, is the lake of fire eternal pain.. not it is not.
for it to be eternal pain, that implies the wicked receive the gift of God without Christ, a notio that directly contradicts a host of many scriptures...

the wicked do not live forever, so the lake of fire is not "eternal pain"...
it is eternal destruction... destructION, not "destroying", as traditionalists try to make it...

and FWIW, Matthew 25:46, the term "eternal" shouldnt be the focus, even though some conditionalists try to make it out to be that... the word "punishment" should be the focus, because the word "punishment" refers to the end result of the act, not the duration of the act. "eternal" already tells us the duration... "punishment" is a noun of action, not a verb.
Hebrews 9:12 uses the same kind of word, and uses the term "eternal" as well, "eternal redemption"... when you study both greek suffixes for both words, (punishment = kolasis / redemption = lutrosis), they both uses the same suffix.
if punishment refers to the duration of the act, then that standard must be used for Hebrews 9:12 as well, which would mean that our redemption would be an ongoing process in eternity...
the only reason we would have to be continually redeemed in eternity is if we were continually sinning in eternity, becue we are redeemed from the penalty of sin: death.
no, this is not right one bit... the greek suffix "sis" cannot be talking about the duration, because that creates a disgusting heresy.
in eternity, though, we are eternally redeemed... meaning, once we are redeemed ion full upon Christ's return, it is eternal, never to be undone, never to be changed.
now, if we take THAT definition, and apply it to Matthew 25:46, there is no contradiction in scripture... the punishment for sin has always been death, Romans 6:23. the punishment that Matthew 25:46 refers to is not living forever in torment, but death... so when it says "eternal punishment", it is referring to the end result of being thrown into the lake of fire... death. a death that cannot be undone nor changed.

with the first death, our physical death, there is hope in seeing life again, through Jesus Christ, and through Jesus Christ alone.
with the second death, there is no second chance.
once you're thrown in there, you will not be resurrected again.
you will stay dead.