LAKE OF FIRE (eternal pain)

Is the Lake of Fire eternal pain?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 38.1%
  • No

    Votes: 13 61.9%

  • Total voters
    21

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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He taught what his culture believed. What don't you get? It doesn't make him a deceiver. He would only be deceiving people if he knew that the lake of fire was from paganism.
Maybe you have some insight that nobody has ever had before and you can tell us how much of the Bible is derived from false pagan cultures? And, of course, if you do, do you also have credible, verifiable historical evidence because I know of many people who have made substantially the same claim e.g.; Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, Herbert Armstrong, John Thomas, Ellen White, L Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones Vernon Howell.
 
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Job8

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The lake of fire is from an Egyptian myth that predates the oldest biblical texts by about 1500 years. It is not a real place. The notion was borrowed by Jewish writers. And yes, Jesus believed in it. What else would you expect from a pious, Pharmacy Jew?
This ludicrous post reveals (1) disrespect and blasphemy and (2) disregard for truth. So here is the truth.

WHAT THE BIBLE REVEALS ABOUT HELL


There are many heterodox groups (such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists) who reject the Bible doctrine of Hell (the Lake of Fire). We also have so-called “evangelicals” (read theological liberals) such as Clark Pinnock who reject this Bible doctrine. And now we have several posters on CF who are attempting to “prove” that there is no eternal Hell where sinners are in conscious everlasting torment. One has to wonder what they gain from misleading others, since they will give account for every wrong word.

So the only way to refute false doctrine is with Bible truth, and I trust that many Christians will take heed to what the Bible actually states (NOT what we would like to believe, since if it were up to us, not one of us would want to believe that there is a real Hell). The Bible must be taken in its plain, literal sense unless it clear that we are looking at a figure of speech, a metaphor, or a symbol. Also, Scripture must be compared with Scripture to determine Bible truth.

Sheol/Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus

Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) refer to the same place in “the heart of the earth” where the souls of the departed and unsaved dead go to await their final judgment, whereas Gehenna (Greek) refers to “the Lake of Fire” which is in “outer darkness”, and is presently unoccupied. Tartarus is reserved strictly for “the angels which kept not their first estate” and are also awaiting their final judgment. The confusion arises because the translators of the KJV used the English word “hell” indiscriminately, rather than transliterating the different words to distinguish each place. However “everlasting” means “everlasting”, and “eternal” means “eternal”, and no amount of semantic games will change that.

HELL WAS CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, BUT IS ALSO FOR THE CURSED, AND A PLACE OF EVERLASTING FIRE

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mt 25:41).

HELL IS IN “OUTER DARKNESS”, WHERE THERE IS WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 8:11,12)

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

HELL IS FOR THE WICKED AND FOR THOSE THAT FORGET GOD

The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God (Ps 9:17).

HELL IS A PLACE OF DAMNATION FOR THE WICKED AND THE UNBELIEVING

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mt 23:33).

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16).

HELL AND EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION GO TOGETHER


Hell [Sheol] and destruction [abbadown = perishing] are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? (Prov 15:11).

Hell [Sheol] and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. (Prov 27:20).

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Mt 7:13).

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thess 1:9).

[Note: the word “perish” (or “destruction”) means eternal ruin, not annihilation, because it is “eternal destruction”. See John 3:15,16]

[Question: Why would Christ need to die for sinners, if eventually they would all be annihilated (wiped out) anyhow?]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “DEVOURING FIRE” AND “EVERLASTING BURNINGS” FOR SINNERS AND HYPOCRITES

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (Isa 33:14).

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mt 5:22).

HELL IS A PLACE OF “UNQUENCHABLE FIRE” OR “EVERLASTING HELL FIRE”

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Mt 3:12).

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (Mt 18:8,9).

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk 9:43-48) [Question: If Hell is not eternal torment, why would Christ repeat His words over and over again? The corrupt Bibles have expunged these words of warning.]

THE “TARES” (THE WICKED OR UNSAVED) ARE BURNED IN A “FURNACE OF FIRE”

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn... The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth... So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 13:30,38-42; 49-50).

BODIES (ALONG WITH SOULS) ARE CAST INTO HELL

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and notthat thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. (Mt 5:29,30).

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28). [“Fear Him” refers to God]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT”

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mt 25:45,46). [Naysayers please note the precise contrast between “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal”].

EVEN HADES (NOT ETERNAL) IS A PLACE OF TORMENT AND FLAMES

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Lk 16:22-24). [Naysayers: This is NOT a parable, since parables don’t have actual people in dialogue with each other].

Note: When Scripture says that death and Hades (not Hell) were cast into the Lake of Fire, Death and Hades are personifications for all the unsaved dead which are occupants of Hades, and are ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire. Death and Hades are also personified in Rev 6:8.

HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) IS A PLACE OF ETERNAL TORMENT

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11).

THE UNHOLY TRINITY WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 19:20;20:10)

THE UNSAVED AND ALL SINNERS WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 20:15; 21:8)
 
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Steve Petersen

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This ludicrous post reveals (1) disrespect and blasphemy and (2) disregard for truth. So here is the truth.

WHAT THE BIBLE REVEALS ABOUT HELL


There are many heterodox groups (such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists) who reject the Bible doctrine of Hell (the Lake of Fire). We also have so-called “evangelicals” (read theological liberals) such as Clark Pinnock who reject this Bible doctrine. And now we have several posters on CF who are attempting to “prove” that there is no eternal Hell where sinners are in conscious everlasting torment. One has to wonder what they gain from misleading others, since they will give account for every wrong word.

So the only way to refute false doctrine is with Bible truth, and I trust that many Christians will take heed to what the Bible actually states (NOT what we would like to believe, since if it were up to us, not one of us would want to believe that there is a real Hell). The Bible must be taken in its plain, literal sense unless it clear that we are looking at a figure of speech, a metaphor, or a symbol. Also, Scripture must be compared with Scripture to determine Bible truth.

Sheol/Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus

Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) refer to the same place in “the heart of the earth” where the souls of the departed and unsaved dead go to await their final judgment, whereas Gehenna (Greek) refers to “the Lake of Fire” which is in “outer darkness”, and is presently unoccupied. Tartarus is reserved strictly for “the angels which kept not their first estate” and are also awaiting their final judgment. The confusion arises because the translators of the KJV used the English word “hell” indiscriminately, rather than transliterating the different words to distinguish each place. However “everlasting” means “everlasting”, and “eternal” means “eternal”, and no amount of semantic games will change that.

HELL WAS CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, BUT IS ALSO FOR THE CURSED, AND A PLACE OF EVERLASTING FIRE

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mt 25:41).

HELL IS IN “OUTER DARKNESS”, WHERE THERE IS WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 8:11,12)

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

HELL IS FOR THE WICKED AND FOR THOSE THAT FORGET GOD

The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God (Ps 9:17).

HELL IS A PLACE OF DAMNATION FOR THE WICKED AND THE UNBELIEVING

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mt 23:33).

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16).

HELL AND EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION GO TOGETHER


Hell [Sheol] and destruction [abbadown = perishing] are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? (Prov 15:11).

Hell [Sheol] and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. (Prov 27:20).

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Mt 7:13).

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thess 1:9).

[Note: the word “perish” (or “destruction”) means eternal ruin, not annihilation, because it is “eternal destruction”. See John 3:15,16]

[Question: Why would Christ need to die for sinners, if eventually they would all be annihilated (wiped out) anyhow?]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “DEVOURING FIRE” AND “EVERLASTING BURNINGS” FOR SINNERS AND HYPOCRITES

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (Isa 33:14).

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mt 5:22).

HELL IS A PLACE OF “UNQUENCHABLE FIRE” OR “EVERLASTING HELL FIRE”

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Mt 3:12).

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (Mt 18:8,9).

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk 9:43-48) [Question: If Hell is not eternal torment, why would Christ repeat His words over and over again? The corrupt Bibles have expunged these words of warning.]

THE “TARES” (THE WICKED OR UNSAVED) ARE BURNED IN A “FURNACE OF FIRE”

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn... The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth... So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 13:30,38-42; 49-50).

BODIES (ALONG WITH SOULS) ARE CAST INTO HELL

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and notthat thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. (Mt 5:29,30).

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28). [“Fear Him” refers to God]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT”

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mt 25:45,46). [Naysayers please note the precise contrast between “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal”].

EVEN HADES (NOT ETERNAL) IS A PLACE OF TORMENT AND FLAMES

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Lk 16:22-24). [Naysayers: This is NOT a parable, since parables don’t have actual people in dialogue with each other].

Note: When Scripture says that death and Hades (not Hell) were cast into the Lake of Fire, Death and Hades are personifications for all the unsaved dead which are occupants of Hades, and are ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire. Death and Hades are also personified in Rev 6:8.

HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) IS A PLACE OF ETERNAL TORMENT

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11).

THE UNHOLY TRINITY WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 19:20;20:10)

THE UNSAVED AND ALL SINNERS WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 20:15; 21:8)

This rant will only matter to people who hold your narrow view, that the Bible was literally dictated by God and that your reading of the text is the only correct one.

I happen not to be one of those.
 
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Steve Petersen

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This ludicrous post reveals (1) disrespect and blasphemy and (2) disregard for truth. So here is the truth.

WHAT THE BIBLE REVEALS ABOUT HELL


There are many heterodox groups (such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists) who reject the Bible doctrine of Hell (the Lake of Fire). We also have so-called “evangelicals” (read theological liberals) such as Clark Pinnock who reject this Bible doctrine. And now we have several posters on CF who are attempting to “prove” that there is no eternal Hell where sinners are in conscious everlasting torment. One has to wonder what they gain from misleading others, since they will give account for every wrong word.

So the only way to refute false doctrine is with Bible truth, and I trust that many Christians will take heed to what the Bible actually states (NOT what we would like to believe, since if it were up to us, not one of us would want to believe that there is a real Hell). The Bible must be taken in its plain, literal sense unless it clear that we are looking at a figure of speech, a metaphor, or a symbol. Also, Scripture must be compared with Scripture to determine Bible truth.

Sheol/Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus

Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) refer to the same place in “the heart of the earth” where the souls of the departed and unsaved dead go to await their final judgment, whereas Gehenna (Greek) refers to “the Lake of Fire” which is in “outer darkness”, and is presently unoccupied. Tartarus is reserved strictly for “the angels which kept not their first estate” and are also awaiting their final judgment. The confusion arises because the translators of the KJV used the English word “hell” indiscriminately, rather than transliterating the different words to distinguish each place. However “everlasting” means “everlasting”, and “eternal” means “eternal”, and no amount of semantic games will change that.

HELL WAS CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS, BUT IS ALSO FOR THE CURSED, AND A PLACE OF EVERLASTING FIRE

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mt 25:41).

HELL IS IN “OUTER DARKNESS”, WHERE THERE IS WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 8:11,12)

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

HELL IS FOR THE WICKED AND FOR THOSE THAT FORGET GOD

The wicked shall be turned into hell [Sheol], and all the nations that forget God (Ps 9:17).

HELL IS A PLACE OF DAMNATION FOR THE WICKED AND THE UNBELIEVING

Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mt 23:33).

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:16).

HELL AND EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION GO TOGETHER


Hell [Sheol] and destruction [abbadown = perishing] are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? (Prov 15:11).

Hell [Sheol] and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. (Prov 27:20).

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: (Mt 7:13).

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thess 1:9).

[Note: the word “perish” (or “destruction”) means eternal ruin, not annihilation, because it is “eternal destruction”. See John 3:15,16]

[Question: Why would Christ need to die for sinners, if eventually they would all be annihilated (wiped out) anyhow?]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “DEVOURING FIRE” AND “EVERLASTING BURNINGS” FOR SINNERS AND HYPOCRITES

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? (Isa 33:14).

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Mt 5:22).

HELL IS A PLACE OF “UNQUENCHABLE FIRE” OR “EVERLASTING HELL FIRE”

Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Mt 3:12).

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. (Mt 18:8,9).

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk 9:43-48) [Question: If Hell is not eternal torment, why would Christ repeat His words over and over again? The corrupt Bibles have expunged these words of warning.]

THE “TARES” (THE WICKED OR UNSAVED) ARE BURNED IN A “FURNACE OF FIRE”

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn... The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth... So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 13:30,38-42; 49-50).

BODIES (ALONG WITH SOULS) ARE CAST INTO HELL

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and notthat thy whole body should be cast into hell [Gehenna]. (Mt 5:29,30).

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28). [“Fear Him” refers to God]

HELL IS A PLACE OF “EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT”

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mt 25:45,46). [Naysayers please note the precise contrast between “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal”].

EVEN HADES (NOT ETERNAL) IS A PLACE OF TORMENT AND FLAMES

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Lk 16:22-24). [Naysayers: This is NOT a parable, since parables don’t have actual people in dialogue with each other].

Note: When Scripture says that death and Hades (not Hell) were cast into the Lake of Fire, Death and Hades are personifications for all the unsaved dead which are occupants of Hades, and are ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire. Death and Hades are also personified in Rev 6:8.

HELL (THE LAKE OF FIRE) IS A PLACE OF ETERNAL TORMENT

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:9-11).

THE UNHOLY TRINITY WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone... And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 19:20;20:10)

THE UNSAVED AND ALL SINNERS WILL BE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 20:15; 21:8)

Don't know how the word Pharmacy got in there. I meant to say 'pious, Pharasaic Jew.' Thanks for the quote. I went back and fixed it.
 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA

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Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mt 25:41).

The same Greek words for "everlasting fire" above are used in Jude 5-7 for the fire that burned Sodom & went out many centuries ago. That fire was not eternal.

Romans 5:18...Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Cor. 15:22...For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Phil. 2:9-11...Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

Col. 1:19-22...For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Titus 2:11...For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

1 Timothy 2:5 & 6....For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. I Tim. 2:4

https://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univ3.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm
 
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ClementofA

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And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk 9:43-48)

Notice v.49, everyone will be salted with fire. Also:

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew5/D5-BibleThreateningsExplained.html
 
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ClementofA

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Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thess 1:9).

[Note: the word “perish” (or “destruction”) means eternal ruin, not annihilation, because it is “eternal destruction”. See John 3:15,16]

Jesus said "destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days." Destruction was only temporary.

You'll see that destruction in 1 Corinthians 5 was remedial, corrective, in its purpose.

The Greek word for "everlasting" is aionion, the equivalent of olam in the OT. The best scholarly works generally agree these words are often used of finite durations. You have provided no proof that your translation is correct and more literal translations (that do not say everlasting) are not.

Even if it's an everlasting destruction, it may be remedial destruction & only everlasting in its remedial effect. This explains it further as it regards the word "everlasting" (KJV) at Mt25:46:


http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=232
 
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Der Alte

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The standard copy/paste from tentmaker.
The same Greek words for "everlasting fire" above are used in Jude 5-7 for the fire that burned Sodom & went out many centuries ago. That fire was not eternal.
* * *
https://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univ3.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm

Those were all great scripture you posted, what was your purpose for quoting them? The word translated "example" is 1164 deigma, it occurs only one time in the NT. It is derived from 1166 deiknuo which means "to show." An example is not exactly like the real thing.
 
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Der Alte

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Notice v.49, everyone will be salted with fire. Also:
"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew5/D5-BibleThreateningsExplained.html

Well, all this must be true because it is posted on the internet by Gary and Michelle Amirault, the webmasters at tentmaker, who list no scholastic qualifications at all.
 
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ClementofA

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Well, all this must be true because it is posted on the internet by Gary and Michelle Amirault, the webmasters at tentmaker, who list no scholastic qualifications at all.

It took less than one minute to find this with a google search of "Josephus unquenchable fire temple":

https://books.google.ca/books?id=MZpPCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA244&lpg=PA244&dq=josephus+unquenchable+fire+temple&source=bl&ots=IecsmKlKFQ&sig=CTHzlQzD3apXFdnzHWfdud0u7W8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy-JTQuIXOAhVE7mMKHYIMCcYQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=josephus unquenchable fire temple&f=false
 
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mmksparbud

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Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Gift is everlasting life for the saved---wages of sin is death, perish--not everlasting life --if you're burning eternally in hell that is everlasting life.
 
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Der Alte

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Something like this is what you should have done in the first place. But this is known as a tertiary source not the primary source which would be Josephus' actual writing in English and Greek. Since you cited Josephus as authoritative here is a quote from Wars of the Jews Book 2, chapter VIII, vs. 14
But then as to the two other orders at first mentioned, the Pharisees are those who are esteemed most skilful in the exact explication of their laws, and introduce the first sect. These ascribe all to fate [or providence], and to God, and yet allow, that to act what is right, or the contrary, is principally in the power of men; although fate does co-operate in every action. They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment. But the Sadducees are those that compose the second order, and take away fate entirely, and suppose that God is not concerned in our doing or not doing what is evil; and they say, that to act what is good, or what is evil, is at men’s own choice, and that the one or the other belongs so to every one, that they may act as they please. They also take away the belief of the immortal duration of the soul, and the punishments and rewards in Hades. Moreover, the Pharisees are friendly to one another, and are for the exercise of concord, and regard for the public; but the behaviour of the Sadducees one towards another is in some degree wild, and their conversation with those that are of their own party is as barbarous as if they were strangers to them. And this is what I had to say concerning the philosophic sects among the Jews.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html
 
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Der Alte

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Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and can't be literally cast anywhere. Neither hell nor death could or have died a first death. so they certainly can't die a second death. And while the lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death twice in Rev. the LOF is not synonymous with death. In Revelation 20:10 the devil, false prophet, who is a person, and the beast are cast into the LOF but they have not died a first time and they don't die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Bible also says "all have sinned and come short of the and glory of God" and "It is appointed to man once to die after that the judgment." That means all, 100%, of mankind has sinned, will die and face judgment. That satisfies Romans 6:23. What these verses don't say is "the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then a second death."
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Gift is everlasting life for the saved---wages of sin is death, perish--not everlasting life --if you're burning eternally in hell that is everlasting life.
These passages show the unrighteous dead in sheol or hades moving, speaking, etc. Luke 16:19-31, Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:21-23, Ezekiel 32:31-32
 
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hedrick

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Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and can't be literally cast anywhere. Neither hell nor death could or have died a first death. so they certainly can't die a second death. And while the lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death twice in Rev. the LOF is not synonymous with death. In Revelation 20:10 the devil, false prophet, who is a person, and the beast are cast into the LOF but they have not died a first time and they don't die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Are you simply rejecting the passage?

The image is intended to say that hell and death are destroyed. Since, as you point out, it makes no sense to say that death is tormented forever, the obvious meaning is the one we've been insisting on all along.

The second death is a death in eternity, God's realm, as opposed to the first death which is in this life. Paul noted that at the end not everyone will have to be resurrected. Some who are alive at that time will simply be changed. (1 Cor 15:51) Are they then immune from the second death because they haven't died the first time? Clearly not.

Rev 20:14 occurs at the end of the judgement, right before the new heavens and the new earth in Rev 21. The obvious meaning of Rev 20:14 is that in the end even hell and death die. Since in response to a previous posting of mine you denied the existence of an intermediate state, that means that eternal hell, and not just an intermediate Hades, is cast into the lake, i.e. it is cast into itself.

I've always thought of this as kind of an implosion. Death and destruction destroy themselves, leaving nothing behind that could cause tears, no death and no pain (Rev 21:4).
 
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Der Alte

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Are you simply rejecting the passage?
The image is intended to say that hell and death are destroyed. Since, as you point out, it makes no sense to say that death is tormented forever, the obvious meaning is the one we've been insisting on all along.
The second death is a death in eternity, God's realm, as opposed to the first death which is in this life. Paul noted that at the end not everyone will have to be resurrected. Some who are alive at that time will simply be changed. (1 Cor 15:51) Are they then immune from the second death because they haven't died the first time? Clearly not.
Rev 20:14 occurs at the end of the judgement, right before the new heavens and the new earth in Rev 21. The obvious meaning of Rev 20:14 is that in the end even hell and death die. Since in response to a previous posting of mine you denied the existence of an intermediate state, that means that eternal hell, and not just an intermediate Hades, is cast into the lake, i.e. it is cast into itself.
I've always thought of this as kind of an implosion. Death and destruction destroy themselves, leaving nothing behind that could cause tears, no death and no pain (Rev 21:4).
In your version is death symbolically cast into the LOF while hell, either the grave or the place of punishment, is literally cast into the LOF? But there is a scriptural answer which does not entail mixing literal and symbolic in the same sentence.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
In Revelation 20:14 the angel of death and the angel/demon of hell are cast into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This vs. Rev 21:4 says there shall be no more death because "the former things are, not will be, passed away.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
But four verses later this vs. Rev. 21:8 says that "the fearful," etc. shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


 
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ClementofA

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Something like this is what you should have done in the first place. But this is known as a tertiary source not the primary source which would be Josephus' actual writing in English and Greek. Since you cited Josephus as authoritative here is a quote from Wars of the Jews Book 2, chapter VIII, vs. 14

First of all, Josephus didn't write in English.

Secondly, if you had gone to the link & read it, a reference was given to the primary source.

Third, when you start posting church fathers in Greek instead of your English mis-translations (by who, the RCC?), then you will have come up to your own standards.

As for me, i am not under law, yours or anyone elses, but under grace.

Fourth, Josephus was referred to re the use of a word to prove many ECT advocates wrong in their understanding of it in Mark 9.

Fifth, as for your Josephus' quote, you didn't comment on what it has to do with the word "unquenchable", also translated as 'not quenched', 'unextinguished' etc.

Lastly, didn't your beloved ECT biased lexicons already give you the references & meanings of "unquenchable" in the original Greek? Or did they purposely leave some things out?
 
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Der Alte

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First of all, Josephus didn't write in English.
Secondly, if you had gone to the link & read it, a reference was given to the primary source.
Then you quote the primary source, not a truncated quote by a biased writer.
Third, when you start posting church fathers in Greek instead of your English mis-translations (by who, the RCC?), then you will have come up to your own standards.
Do you read Greek? Do you have any kind of Greek lexicon? Note: Strong's is not a lexicon and has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. I doubt that you could parse a Greek verb if your life depended on it. Whenever you say mistranslated it is absolutely meaningless without evidence.
As for me, i am not under law, yours or anyone elses, but under grace.
Well, good for you. This has what to do with anything I said?
Fourth, Josephus was referred to re the use of a word to prove many ECT advocates wrong in their understanding of it in Mark 9.
Which you failed to do!
Fifth, as for your Josephus' quote, you didn't comment on what it has to do with the word "unquenchable", also translated as 'not quenched', 'unextinguished' etc.
Had you bothered to actually read my post Josephus stated what it had to do with "not quenched", "unextinguished." And no amount of tirades about "biased translations" can refute it.
Lastly, didn't your beloved ECT biased lexicons already give you the references & meanings of "unquenchable" in the original Greek? Or did they purposely leave some things out?
How would you know? Do you read Greek? Do you have a supposedly unbiased lexicon which only supports your assumptions/presuppositions? Do you have any kind of credible, verifiable, historical evidence or only tentmaker, city-data forums, anonymous blogs, etc? Here are a few quotes from Origen.
Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] De Principiis Book 1, Chap. 1
5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance6 and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this: and also, that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when this body, which now “is sown in corruption, shall rise in incorruption,” and that which “is sown in dishonour will rise in glory.” (1Co_15:42-43)

De Principiis. Book III. Chap. I.
For God deals with souls not merely with a view to the short space of our present life, included within sixty years or more, but with reference to a perpetual and never-ending period, exercising His providential care over souls that are immortal, even as He Himself is eternal and immortal.

De Principiis. Book II. Chap X
3…by God’s command restores out of the earthly and animal body a spiritual one, capable of inhabiting the heavens; while to each one of those who may be of inferior merit, or of more abject condition, or even the lowest in the scale, and altogether thrust aside, there is yet given, in proportion to the dignity of his life and soul, a glory and dignity of body, - nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire.


Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap. XXVI.
But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made to all, nor to be uttered on the present occasion; for it is not unattended with danger to commit to writing the explanation of such subjects, seeing the multitude need no further instruction than that which relates to the punishment of sinners; while to ascend beyond this is not expedient, for the sake of those who are with difficulty restrained, even by fear of eternal punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin.

Origen Against Celsus. Book VIII. Chap LI
And Celsus, in like manner, after having embraced the doctrine, “that the righteous shall be blessed, and the wicked shall suffer eternal punishments,” should have followed out his subject; and, after having advanced what seemed to him the chief argument, he should have proceeded to prove and enforce by further reasons the truth that the unjust shall surely suffer eternal punishment, and those who lead a good life shall be blessed.

Prologue of Rufinus
And, verily, in the presence of God the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, I adjure and beseech every one, who may either transcribe or read these books, by his belief in the kingdom to come, by the mystery of the resurrection from the dead, and by that everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, that, as he would not possess for an eternal inheritance that place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and where their fire is not quenched and their worm dieth not, he add nothing to Scripture, and take nothing away from it, and make no insertion or alteration, but that he compare his transcript with the copies from which he made it, and make the emendations and distinctions according to the letter, and not have his manuscript incorrect or indistinct, lest the difficulty of ascertaining the sense, from the indistinctness of the copy, should cause greater difficulties to the readers.

De Principiis. Book II. Chap. X..
1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church’s teaching - viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners - let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be.5
Link to writings of Origen.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0412.htm
 
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ClementofA

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Josephus was referred to re the use of a word to prove many ECT advocates wrong in their understanding of it in Mark 9.

Der Alter replied: Which you failed to do!

When the idea of endlessness is injected into "unquenchable" just because many ECTers think the word looks like it's saying that, then the person making that claim is wrong. Now if you have some proof that in Mark 9 it must refer to endlessness, based on other considerations, then that is another matter completely.

And as for your Josephus' quote, you didn't comment on what it has to do with the word "unquenchable", also translated as 'not quenched', 'unextinguished' etc.

Der Alter replied: Had you bothered to actually read my post Josephus stated what it had to do with "not quenched", "unextinguished." And no amount of tirades about "biased translations" can refute it.

It doesn't even mention "unquenchable". Also, it's just an English translation, not the original, inspite of any excathedra proclamations to the contrary re its perfection, whether papal Protestant or other. BTW, what are the original words rendered "eternal punishment". Do you have any idea?

I see the quote also makes reference to "punishments and rewards in Hades". In the book of Revelation the dead get out of Hades. Also you recently quoted a Jewish source that said Hades/Sheol would be destroyed, in which case it is not a place of "eternal punishment", to use the words from your above quote.

It seems strange to quote something & make bold claims about it and then refuse to explain your point in quoting it, what it has to do with the topic, or how it supports your bold claim. I wonder if anyone else has any idea what your point is.
 
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