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Featured LAKE OF FIRE (eternal pain)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Douglas Hendrickson, Jul 1, 2016.

  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    38.1%
  2. No

    13 vote(s)
    61.9%
  1. Douglas Hendrickson

    Douglas Hendrickson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those who do not want to be of God and for God,
    God wood burn them up ...

    Yet knot really have HIS HEART in ...
    (Not suffer contamination of IS-HEART)

    So UNPERFECTED BEING is likely to suffer eternal pain ...
    Not being present with God...

    [Those who want the worst things of humanity - God would let them keep their awful humanity - that they endorse so much - for eternity.]
     
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  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    It's it's eternal "torment" which is more like regret.
    It ends in the Lake of Fire.
    But being outside of time already, it seems eternal.
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You are mistaken about the lake of fire. The lake of fire passages, in context.
    Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
    .....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
    .....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere but there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

    Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    I don't see any disparity in your passages from what I claimed.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You must not have read my post at all. You said, "the Lake of Fire. ... being outside of time already, it seems eternal" But Revelation 20:10 says "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
    Tormented day and night for ever and ever. It does not say "tormented for what seems eternal!"
    Then there is Revelation14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name."
    .....That the torment is everlasting, unending, "for ever and ever" is reinforced by the words "no rest day nor night." 10,000 times 10.000 eons from now God's unchanging word will still read "no rest day and night."


     
  6. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    That's a very human terminology for when the sun comes up
    and shines on your face, then the sun goes down and it
    no longer shines on your face.

    I'm not confident that the turning of the earth and how the
    sun shines, describes life in the lake of fire very accurately.
    And you "cannot get rest there" is like a bad hotel visit with
    kids running in the hallway slamming doors all hours.

    If your going to be literal, Hell is like a Motel 6 that allows
    smokers. Hotel California?



    So I called up the Captain,
    "Please bring me my wine"
    He said, "We haven't had that spirit here since nineteen sixty nine"
    And still those voices are calling from far away,
    Wake you up in the middle of the night
    Just to hear them say...

    Welcome to the Hotel California
    Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
    Such a lovely face
    They livin' it up at the Hotel California
    What a nice surprise (what a nice surprise)
    Bring your alibis

    Mirrors on the ceiling,
    The pink champagne on ice
    And she said "We are all just prisoners here, of our own device"
    And in the master's chambers,
    They gathered for the feast
    They stab it with their steely knives,
    But they just can't kill the beast

    Last thing I remember, I was
    Running for the door
    I had to find the passage back
    To the place I was before
    "Relax, " said the night man,
    "We are programmed to receive.
    You can check-out any time you like,
    But you can never leave! "
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    IMO there is no Scripture to support endless torments.

    The book of Revelation never says anyone will experience that, when translated literally, rather than idiomaticly.
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rev. 5: 13. "And EVERY creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and ALL that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

    13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"

    John 1:29 On the morrow he is observing Jesus coming toward him, and is saying, "Lo! the Lamb of God Which is taking away the sin of the world!"
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Revelation says, in mistranslations, Christ reigns "forever and ever"? But does He? Paul says He reigns "until" the Kingdom is handed over to the Father (1Cor.15:22-28).

    1. This seems to support the view that Christ's reign "forever & ever" comes to an end.
    2. And that "forever & ever" as used re torments does as well, when the same or similar Greek phrases, mistranslated "forever and ever", are used.
    3. Literally "forever and ever" makes no sense anyway. It's an oxymoron ;
    4. Literal translations do not say "forever & ever" but "into the eons of the eons" or ages & similar expressions. See YLT, CLNT, for example.
    5. Greek interlinears do likewise. For an example:
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev20.pdf


    The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever." (Rev.11:15)

    Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev.20:6)

    22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
    (1Cor.15:22-28)

    Elsewhere the author of Revelation, John, wrote:

    John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

    He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.(1Jn.2:2)

    we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.(1Jn.4:14)

     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    On what do you base your claim that Revelation is mistranslated, simply because it does not fit your assumptions/presuppositions? Are you a Greek scholar?
    If you were familiar with Hebrew idioms you would know about epizeuksis, the redoubling of words for emphasis. For example,
    Isaiah 40:1, “Comfort, comfort my people…”
    Matt 23:37, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those
    who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the
    way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”
    When our Lord says in Matthew 27:46, “My God, My God, why have you
    forsaken Me”
    Gen. 9:25, “So he said, ‘Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brothers.’”—“i.e., the lowest and most degraded of servants, or the most abject slave.”
    Bullinger. Observe, “servant”(singular) “of servants” (genitive plural).
    Deu. 10:17, “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the LORD
    of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe.”—i.e., He is the greatest God, the incomparable Lord … there is none like Him!
    Ecc. 1:2, “’Vanity of vanities,’ says the Preacher, ‘Vanity of vanities! All is
    vanity.’”—i.e., Life “under the sun” (v. 3) is ultimate futility, like “striving after wind”
    (v. 14)! This is the theme of this book. People spend their entire life investing in this life,
    yet when all is said and done there is no “advantage” or “profit” (1:3)—he will take nothing with him! In contrast, Jesus encourages men to “seek for His kingdom” and thereby to lay up “an unfailing treasure in heaven.” Lk. 12:31,33.
    Exod. 26:33, “And you shall … bring in the ark of the testimony there within the veil; and the veil shall serve for you as a partition between the holy place and the holy of holies.”—i.e., the “most holy place” (1 Ki. 8:6), which represented coming into the very presence of the “God of gods and Lord of lords,” who is, “Holy, Holy, Holy” (Isa. 6:3)—holy to the very highest degree! (another figure involving repetition of words—epizeuxis, or duplication, Bullinger, pp. 189,194).
    Song of Solomon 1:1, “The Song of Songs, which is Solomon’s.”—i.e., the “Best of the Songs” (NASB marginal note), or, the most excellent and beautiful song.
    Php. 3:5, “circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee”—i.e. a Hebrew to the superlative degree enjoying every advantage such could give.
    http://www.peterwade.org/articles/other/knoch03.shtml
    http://www.biblicalresearchjournal.org/brj-pages_pdf/001ewb_figures_of_speech.pdf

    See my post #480 and 481, this thread for a thorough discussion of the Greek words aion and aionios. Historical evidence shows that the definition includes eternal, everlasting, unending.
    Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
    .
    Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
    .
    Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  11. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    I think the doctrine was created for two reasons.
    1. Church leaders found it profitable to control and manipulate other people.
    2. Satan wants to mar the image of God from a benevolent being of love into a harsh tyrant bent on revenge and punishment.
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    There is no, zero, none evidence for either one of these claims. But there is evidence that the Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. And being Jews in Israel Jesus' disciples would have been taught this.When Jesus taught about,
    • "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
    • “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
    • “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24
    .....These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
    under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (
    Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
    It is assumed in general that
    sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son,
    hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).
    When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
    Link:
    Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

    .....The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
    http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm
    Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
    “Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
    (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in
    The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
    G. R. Beasley-Murray in
    Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
    “Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators,
    that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
    http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Der Alter asked: "On what do you base your claim that Revelation is mistranslated, simply because it does not fit your assumptions/presuppositions?"

    I suggest you might want to read again what was written. It is based on the scriptures that i already gave you. Perhaps you have never seen the viewpoint before. Tom Logan was very familiar with it & also had no problem allowing for the literal translations of aion as eon & aionon as eonian & likewise with the phrases in Revelation. Other than that, from what i've seen of your positions, they are much the same as his.

    Der Alter said: "If you were familiar with Hebrew idioms you would know about epizeuksis, the redoubling of words for emphasis."

    Your examples support the view i presented. Those of the type such as "Jerusalem, Jerusalem" you posted are irrelevant. Those of the type like "Lord of lords" are relevant, since they correspond to "age of the ages" or "eon of the eons". Just as the first speaks of a supreme Lord, the second speaks of a supreme eon. So the literal translation makes perfect sense. Thus your examples actually supported the viewpoint i posted.

    Der Alter said"
    "See my post #480 and 481, this thread for a thorough discussion of the Greek words aion and aionios. Historical evidence shows that the definition includes eternal, everlasting, unending."

    There is no such post number in this thread. You must be referring to another one.


    "If the Greek words eis tous aionas ton aionon mean endless time, as translated in the KJV, 'forever and ever,' we have a contradiction in Scripture." -Dr. William Barclay

    "...So what is meant by this expression? Many KJV tradition scholars say that these three different Greek phrases are idiomatic expressions for "eternity."

    "...Similar expressions used in the Scriptures are cited in order to illustrate the meaning: Song of Solomon 1:1, "song of songs;" Eccl. 12:8, "vanity of vanities;" Gen 9:25, "servant of servants;" Ex. 26:33, "holy of the holies;" Deut. 10:17, "God of gods and Lord of lords;" Dan. 8:25, "prince of princes;" Phil. 3:5, "Hebrew of Hebrews;" 1 Tim. 6:15, "King of kings and Lord of lords." Most students of the Scriptures understand what is meant by such expressions, so why is Eph. 3:21, "eon of the eons" an enigma? The eon of the eons refers to the final and greatest of all eons...This eon succeeds the millennial eon, and is previous to the final state."

    "...Paul writes (Eph. 2:6,7) of the blessings of the coming eons. He says: "And He rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials in Christ Jesus, that in the oncoming eons, He may be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus" (see also Eph. 3:20-21)."

    "...The ASV margin and some other versions, lexicons, dictionaries, and commentaries translate the phrase correctly.

    "Windet, in De Vita Functora Statu, of 1633 says (p. 170), "eis tous aionas ton aionon, of the New Testament meant a finite period."

    "...As mentioned previously, there are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle. While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5."

    "...The sentence in Rev. 22:5 saying: "They will be reigning for the eons of the eons" shows that the expression has no reference either to the present or to the preceding eons. The Greek verb basileusousin, "they will be reigning" is a third-person plural future active indicative form; so this reigning must be future. In this present eon, as in those preceding ones, the slaves, or servants, of God are not reigning. Similarly, that God and Christ are living for "the eons of the eons" (Rev. 1:18; 4:9; 10:6; 15:7) has reference to the eons of the future, not to the present eon. That is not to say that God and Christ Jesus are not living during the previous eons. God was the living pre-eonian God. He is the living eonian God, and He will be the living post-eonian God...."

    "Two scriptures state positively that the eons will end: 1 Cor. 10:11, tauta de tupikos sunebainen ekeinois egraphê de pros nouthesian hêmon eis hous ta telê ton aionon katêntêken, "Now those things befalls them typically, yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." Paul had said what those things are, which befalls them typically, in the preceding verses. Yet "it was written" is in the singular, for "our" (plural) admoniton- the "our" referring to the saints, who are the present believers. "To whom," referring to the saints, "the consummations of the eons have attained." The Corinthian saints had attained the consummations of eons in spirit because they were a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Some day all will be a new creation (Rev. 21:5). Now, only the saints who are in Christ are of the new creation, but it is God's goal for the eons to head up all in the Christ, as stated at Eph. 1:9-11. Salvation for all is God's plan for the eons. Those saints believing now have attained that purpose, so have attained the consummation of the eons.

    "...Consequently, with the saints it is possible in spirit to taste the powers of the ages to come (Heb. 6:5). At Hebrews 9:26 the Greek says, epei edei auton pollakis pathein apo katabolês kosmou nuni de hapax epi sunteleia ton aionon eis athetêsin tês hamartias dia têsthusias autou pephanerotai, "Since then, He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, He has been manifested." In the clause, "He has been manifested," the verb is a third-person singular perfect passive indicative. The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state, resultant upon a past action. There is no English tense which corresponds to that of the Greek perfect, so this form is a difficult one to convey into English. It may be translated: "through His sacrifice, He is manifested." But it is clear His sacrifice was not at the "end of the world," as the KJV says, since the world continues. But it is equally clear that His sacrifice was not at the "conclusion of the eons," since Paul wrote of "this present wicked eon" and the "on-coming eons" (Gal. 1:4; Eph. 2:7). Sin still remains, and there is a world of sinners; but when the eons come to a conclusion, sin will be repudiated by virtue of His sacrifice.

    "In Romans 4:17 Paul says, "According as it is written that, a father of many nations I have appointed you, facing which, he believed it of the God Who is vivifying the dead and calling what is not as if it were." Here Paul is writing of Abraham, that Abraham believes God. The God Abraham believes is the God "who is vivifying the dead and calling what is not as if it were." God did not say, "I will appoint you a father of many nations," but "I have appointed you," using a Greek perfect verb, which indicates a completed action with a resultant state of being. As God stated it, it is already an accomplished fact, yet at the time, Abraham did not even have a son, and he was nearly one hundred years old. So God was there calling what was not as though it were. God speaks so of us, when He says: "Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also, now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:29-30; see Eph. 1:3-8). Are we glorified now? Certainly not! But God is following the same pattern of dealing with us as with Abraham, in that He is calling what is not as if it were. God says that He "seats us together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6), yet we are still in this world, and a part of an ecclesia on the earth. He can make such a statement because He can, and will, do what He says.

    "Because we are a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17), we have attained to the consummations of the eons (1 Cor.10:11). At the conclusion of the eons, sin will be repudiated. At present God is "calling what is not as if it were."

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

    http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/forever_eternity.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Who is the savior Jesus or Paul? How does one verse by Paul refute one verse spoken by Jesus, as recorded by John who was an apostle taught by Jesus for 3+ years? We don't arbitrarily throw out Revelation because it contradicts someone's assumptions/presuppositions. Who is Tom Logan and what does he have to do with anything?

    Thank you for the irrelevant opinion about which examples are "irrelevant." Are you a Hebrew and Greek scholar? How do my examples support your viewpoint? The viewpoint you posted is "Literally 'forever and ever' makes no sense anyway. It's an oxymoron;' Since you are not a Greek scholar there is no basis for the amateurish conclusion that αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων means a supreme eon. There can be a supreme king one but how can there be a "supreme eon?" Here is an example from the OT.

    Exodus 15:18 κύριος βασιλεύων τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ἐπ᾿ αἰῶνα καὶ ἔτι.
    Exodus 15:18 The Lord reigns for ever and ever and ever.


    I omitted the rest of your post I am here to discuss with other members not pages and pages of quotes from random websites.
    Here is my post on aion/aionios.
    Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
    Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
    166. αιωνιος
    aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

    Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,
    166 aionios- αιωνιος
    1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
    2) without beginning
    3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

    ---Thayers
    2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
    "The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
    αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
    "The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

    From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
    67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
    aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
    aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
    The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

    Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.
    αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).
    Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.
    αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.
    Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.
    166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
    AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
    GK - 173 { aionios }
    1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
    2) without beginning
    3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

    Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
    CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
    Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
    In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
    * * *

    NIDNTT Colin Brown
    Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios[/indent]


    [Continued next post]
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    [Previous post continued]
    Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
    0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting

    LEH lxx lexicon
    UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
    aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
    αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).

    1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
    2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
    3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

    Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.
    BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
    αιωνιος

    Strong's - Greek 165
    NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
    again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
    CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
    age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
    The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
    In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
    The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end
    aion - αιων - age, world

    A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
    Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
    aionion, aioniosαιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal

    B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
    i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
    ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
    iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
    iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
    v. etc.
    SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
    • "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
    A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
    B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
    C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
    D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
    SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
    • Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον

    - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
    A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
    B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
    C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
    D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
    SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.

    What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Der Alter said: "Who is the savior Jesus or Paul? How does one verse by Paul refute one verse spoken by Jesus, as recorded by John who was an apostle taught by Jesus for 3+ years? We don't arbitrarily throw out Revelation because it contradicts someone's assumptions/presuppositions. Who is Tom Logan and what does he have to do with anything?"

    1. Why do you ask?
    2. Who said it did?
    3. Who said we should?
    4. The one whose work you copied & pasted.

    Der Alter said: "there is no basis for the amateurish conclusion that αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων means a supreme eon. There can be a supreme king one but how can there be a "supreme eon?" "

    A definition of supreme is "highest in degree or quality":
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supreme

    The present "wicked" eon (Gal.1:4) will obviously not be of as high a quality as a future righteous eon. Get it now?
    http://haroldlovelace.com/Concordance of EON and EONIAN.htm

    Der Alter said: "I omitted the rest of your post I am here to discuss with other members not pages and pages of quotes from random websites. Here is my post on aion/aionios."

    Obviously it's up to you whether you want to understand your debating opponent's positions.

    I find it interesting you are not here to read "pages of quotes" & then post the same yourself immediately after saying that. I haven't seen anyone do that more than you & you do it often.
     
  17. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist

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    Please explain this statement in the Bible if the above statement is true.
    Malachi 4:3
    And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
     
  18. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist

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    Matthew 25:41 [Full Chapter]
    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    This statement says that the fire is everlasting not that the folks cast into are everlasting.

    That is why this statement is true
    Malachi 4:3
    And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

    All that are cast into the lake of fire are consumed and the fire is no more and the righteous will walk upon the ashes of the wicked.

    The lake of fire is the second death.

    Only those that are resurrected at the first resurrection are given immortality and everlasting life.
    Luke 14:14
    And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

    The wicked are resurrected at the second resurrection.
    John 5:29
    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Revelation 20:5
    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Revelation 20:6
    Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You quoted my post, how about extending me the common courtesy of addressing my post. This seems a lot like "My scripture trumps your scripture and you can't answer me."
    Malachi 4:1-3
    (1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    (2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    (3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    When read in context this verse describes what God does to the wicked on one day in this world. Israel does not walk on the ashes of the wicked for all eternity.

     
  20. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

    +2,928
    Deist
    US-Libertarian
    The lake of fire is from an Egyptian myth that predates the oldest biblical texts by about 1500 years. It is not a real place. The notion was borrowed by Jewish writers. And yes, Jesus believed in it. What else would you expect from a pious, Pharisaic Jew?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
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