LaHaye vs. Hanegraaff -- Premillennialism vs. Preterism

[FreeinChrist]

Hi Free


Lets not get caught up in semantics you know full well I meant the Great Tribulation Fundies believe there will be whisked away before the Great Tribulation.

In fact they teach that the AC can not even appear until they have been whisked away.

Well - I guess I am a "Great Tribulation Fundie". I see the Great tribulatin as FULL of the wrath of God. Yep - the AC has his day...but there are the trumpet judgements and they are from God.
No I don't expect to see them.....but expect fully to see persecution and sorrow in my life until I die or am raptured.

I did not use the scripture in error........................you just have no understanding of who and what the harlot and Her many harlot Daughter really is. So you think it is applied wrong.........trust me it is correct.........................na don't trust me Trust Paul and Peter and Jesus and all the Prophets who tell us what and who this harlot is.

I don't use scripture in error, JTF.....and I do NOT believe you accurately applied the the descriiption of the Harlot at all.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Ok here is the general concept and has been for hundreds of years. It is believed the Roman Catholic Church is the partial fulfillment of the prophecy in Revelation 17 of a one-world religious Harlot. This is not to say that Revelation 17 is entirely fulfilled by Roman Catholicism.

that is the historicist view, as in Lutheran, SDA and some others. Some premil believers hold this in part.

And it is my understanding that the Roman Catholic Church is alighned with the Full Preterist view of everything being fulfilled on or before 70 AD

Ben07

No, they are not full preterist at all. I will make parts of the following quote in bold, which is from:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c2a7.htm#I
. .until all things are subjected to him


671 Though already present in his Church, Christ's reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled "with power and great glory" by the King's return to earth.557 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ's Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."559 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ's return by saying to him:560 Marana tha! "Our Lord, come!"561 672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel562 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.563 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by "distress" and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church564 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.565



The Church's ultimate trial 675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

Now I have met some mild to abit more moderate partial preterists on this site who are also Catholic, but not full preterists.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi


Quote
The Church's ultimate trial 675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception
End Quote

YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAY............................See and people say I think the Catholics are evil.........NO WAY HOSEA..

Catholic Prophets call this the great Chastisement..............................Why Does God punish the Church............................

BECAUSE WE HAVE FALLEN AND FOLLOWED OUR LOVER THE GOD OF WAR AND FORCES.



Hi Free

The Great Tribulation is not the Wrath of God.

The Wrath of God falls on an unrepentant World............................The Great Tribulation is the devil persecuting true Christians.

The Wrath of God is the Trumpets...........................the great tribulation happens at the Fifth Trumpet when the Beast is let out of the Pit..

They are two different things..........................one carried out by God to punish unrepentant evil man...........................The other is the AC killing the Saints for refusing to say he is Jesus returned.

 

[Bevlina]

Still reading what you have to say JTF ...

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bev

I was just thinking of you .....your ears must have been burning................

How is life downunder....................Hope your family is well..............Things are going well in Canada ...have you talked to Melissa lately.................I hope her struggle goes well, I often am troubled by the evil and deception I sense when I ask for help in the Spirit on this matter.

I am happy to see you are still around and on the offensive...................Do not let anyone deter you from the path the Spirit has chosen for you and the Truth it has led you to.

Peace to you and yours Bev

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hi Free

The Great Tribulation is not the Wrath of God.

The Wrath of God falls on an unrepentant World............................The Great Tribulation is the devil persecuting true Christians.

The Wrath of God is the Trumpets...........................the great tribulation happens at the Fifth Trumpet when the Beast is let out of the Pit..

They are two different things..........................one carried out by God to punish unrepentant evil man...........................The other is the AC killing the Saints for refusing to say he is Jesus returned.

Well, I disagree. I believe the Great tribulation includes the trumpet judgments which fall on the world, and that judgments are sent down while the beast rules for 42 months.

The trumpets are sounded by God's angels and bad things happen on earth. And the trumpets include the three woes the last of which is the 7 vials.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Free

I once believed that too…………when I was final shown the truth of this matter I went …….how on earth could I have missed that……………..follow with me here.

Let me ask you a question..................How can the beast be ruling during all the trumpets he can not be....................Please allow me to show you the Beast is still in the pit when the Trumpets start

Is this the AC / beast/ Son of perdition

Rev 17:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hi Free

I once believed that too…………when I was final shown the truth of this matter I went …….how on earth could I have missed that……………..follow with me here.

Let me ask you a question..................How can the beast be ruling during all the trumpets he can not be....................Please allow me to show you the Beast is still in the pit when the Trumpets start

Is this the AC / beast/ Son of perdition

Rev 17:8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

The beast is not Abaddon.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

it does not matter WHo it is .................Is the Beast in the pit or not?

 

[FreeinChrist]

He is not abaddon. The beast exists from the first seal - and is a man. 666 is the number of a man. I believe at some point, the AC appears to die, is not and then is alive through the indwelling of Satan.

So I don't beleive the beast is currecntly in the bottomless pit, and then finally gets out to reign for 42 months at the 5th trumpet or the first woe.

And none of that changes the fact that the 7 trumpet judgments are FROM GOD, the angels are His. They sound the trumpets from heaven. Bad things happen on earth. wrath of God.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Why are you avoiding the Question ......I DO NOT CARE WHO he is.

Does Scripture say he is in the Pit or Not

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

Now if you are going to say he has been let out of the Pit then when did this happen between 96 AD and today......................

So show me where the Pit is open and the Beast gets out......................in scripture please.........other then at the fifth Trumpet.

No none of it changes that the Trumpets are from God and are the wrath ………….I say the Trumpet are the Wrath of God.............So we agree there I just do not believe that the Great Tribulation is one of the plagues.......................the great Tribulation is murder of the Elect …………………….jesus is clear

21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25: Behold, I have told you before. 26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


the great tribulation is about whether you believe the AC is God not the plagues all around it is those who refuse to accept the AC as God .........that is who gets killed in the Great tribulation.

 

[Mary Phillips]

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

So is it a real pit or a make believe one. Is it going to be like a volcano opening up with weird looking monsters coming out

 

[FreeinChrist]

Hi

Why are you avoiding the Question ......I DO NOT CARE WHO he is.

Does Scripture say he is in the Pit or Not

8: The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

Now if you are going to say he has been let out of the Pit then when did this happen between 96 AD and today......................

So show me where the Pit is open and the Beast gets out......................in scripture please.........other then at the fifth Trumpet.

No none of it changes that the Trumpets are from God and are the wrath ………….I say the Trumpet are the Wrath of God.............So we agree there I just do not believe that the Great Tribulation is one of the plagues.......................the great Tribulation is murder of the Elect …………………….jesus is clear

21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25: Behold, I have told you before. 26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


the great tribulation is about whether you believe the AC is God not the plagues all around it is those who refuse to accept the AC as God .........that is who gets killed in the Great tribulation.

Sigh... no avoiding going on JTF. Well, I disagree with you JTF. The Great Tribulation includes plagues - I never said the Great tribualtion is a plague as you suggested above. And during this time, the AC reigns for 42 months and those that do not accept the mark are beheaded.
Let me make my position clearer, since reading this again, I see I am not clear at all - I believe the Tribulation period is 7 years long with the second half being the 42 rule of the AC and is the 'Great Tribulation.'

Now this has been a nice side trip but going back to my original post to you about your comment that those who beleive in a pretrib rapture are the harlot - my comment to you in post 37:

Wrong. We beleive we see plenty of sorrow and persecution. I have personally. I know pretrib missionaries in the Middle East who also understand, VERY WELL, that there is persecution now and threat of death to those that believe in Christ. We do not beleive we will suffer the wrath of God.

An example of wrongly applied scripture. You are aiming it at the wrong people, JTF
You have also chosen to label those like me as Great Tribulation Fundies - since fundies stands for fundamentalists - and fundalmentists since to the fundalmentals , that is an okay title, but I see you mean it in a derogatory way.

You have failed to show that athe rapture does not occur - regardless is pre - mid or post. You have failed to show that pretribbers are the harlot, as you implied.


So I repeat:
Wrong. We beleive we see plenty of sorrow and persecution. I have personally. I know pretrib missionaries in the Middle East who also understand, VERY WELL, that there is persecution now and threat of death to those that believe in Christ. We do not beleive we will suffer the wrath of God.

Now i have lots to do and can't spend so much time here for a bit, so unless you want to address that - and not avoid it as you have - I probably will not respond furthur.


Have you considered that this is just what a preterist (as one started the thread) might want - disagree and argue among ourselves while they sit back and watch?

 

[Mary Phillips]

Now i have lots to do and can't spend so much time here for a bit, so unless you want to address that - and not avoid it as you have - I probably will not respond furthur.


Have you considered that this is just what a preterist (as one started the thread) might want - disagree and argue among ourselves while they sit back and watch?

Arguing is no fun. So is the bottomless pit real or what does it resemble.? Anyone can please answer. Thank you.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

First off I have never said that rapture does not happen. Second i do not mean fundy in a derogatory sense at all just an abreviation.

Ok I see you are a minor and major tribulation believer.

But you have still not answered the Question when did the Beast get out of the Pit.

You have danced around the fact scripture is clear he is in the Pit..............Now you say he is Not

Scripture Please..............................


Scripture says the Beast is in the Pit .............Please show me where scripture says he got out.

If you are so sure he is out when did this happen.

 

[Mary Phillips]

Scripture says the Beast is in the Pit .............Please show me where scripture says he got out.

If you are so sure he is out when did this happen.

Where is this pit located and will we really see it open up and him come out of it? It almost sounds like a volcanor or the earth opens up. Thanks

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Mary

The Pit is what mainstream Christianity calls hell ..........well sort of they have combined the Pit and the lake of fire to give us hell. ..............The pit is a place of darkness where the Angels that sined with Man are locked up.

2Pt:2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude:1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

[Mary Phillips]

Hi Mary

The Pit is what mainstream Christianity calls hell ..........well sort of they have combined the Pit and the lake of fire to give us hell. ..............The pit is a place of darkness where the Angels that sined with Man are locked up.

2Pt:2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude:1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So they are among us now? The earth is the pit or below the earth?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Acording to scripture the Pit is an opening at Dudael that God ordered covered with heavy rocks.

Enoch 10:6Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there. 7Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness; 8There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light. 9And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire.

 

[Mary Phillips]

Hi

Acording to scripture the Pit is an opening at Dudael that God ordered covered with heavy rocks.

Enoch 10:6Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there. 7Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness; 8There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light. 9And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire.

Where is that at?