Kwanzaa

[USincognito]

Do I consider them apostates? They're Muslims, not those who leave Islam for another religion. We are talking about a race and culture that are celebrating something they had no choice in becoming; far different than choosing your own religion.

I don't consider them apostates because I'm not Muslim. And nice attempt to answer my question with a question, but it won't work. Here's what you wrote again:

Any holiday that celebrates race and culture is Haram anyways. No one chooses to be the race they are, so why be proud of it?

So I ask, again, are Persians who celebrate Persian culture despite being Muslim haram or not?

 

[USincognito]

Name me one prominent Native American who has their own federal holiday.

Odd you bring that up. Are you familiar with (yes I know you are being in the Army, this is a rhetorical device) Columbus Day and why it is a federal holiday?

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

So I ask, again, are Persians who celebrate Persian culture despite being Muslim haram or not?

They are celebrating a Haram event, yes. Am I correct accordng to Islamic law on such matters? I don't know, but that i what I believe. Then of course, most of Persia is Shia Muslim and they seem me as Sunni; hence they believe what I practice as Haram anyways.

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

Odd you bring that up. Are you familiar with (yes I know you are being in the Army, this is a rhetorical device) Columbus Day and why it is a federal holiday?

To celebrate nationalism, that's why.

 

[All Englands Skies]

American is a very broad term. I think black Americans are their own nation. Just like how the Scottish are in the UK, they are still their own nation of people.

Scottish are a from an ethno-specific area, North in the British Isles.

African Americans dont all lets say mainly live in the states of Washington and Oregon, with there own Parliment/Senate, they're are spread out, part of the general populace.

Also its mainly a Geographic issue, apart from a few loudmouths, most English and Scottish people dont have a problem coming into contact with each other, while say you dont have a problem with black people, but from what you've said, I think you are of the mindset white people should live seperatly to black people.

 

[All Englands Skies]

How so? If you think my concept of a nation strange, then I will explain it to you. My definition of a nation is A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language. I don't know if anyone would consider the early Puritan settlers to be part of the same nation as the Indians, though they lived on the same continent. I believe nations are something organic and are formed over a long period of time, and not something that can just be created and have a specific founding date.

Therefore, although people like the African Americans are geographically very close to me, they are a different people just like how the English are or the Russians are.

Even amongst white Americans, you all have diffrent cultures and backgrounds, there is people in the USA Proud to be Irish-American, Anglo-American, Italian American, German American, Jewish-American, Russian American etc

You seem to see ethnic unity as some vague idea of "being white and living in America"

 

[JCSr]

American is a very broad term. I think black Americans are their own nation. Just like how the Scottish are in the UK, they are still their own nation of people.

What? America is part of North America however Canada is not a part of America while being a part of North America. I cannot believe you tried to pass this off as something meaningful or even accurate?

American is one who lives in America, including black people who are Americans living in America.

 

[All Englands Skies]

African people had their unique culture and many traditions stripped from them including their religion by their slave masters and were forced to be Christians. This kwanzaa is to remind us of our cultural roots and heritage. The things we used to celebrate before our community was destroyed.

Only its totally made up, its like European Neo-paganism a mish mash of broad pagan practises mixed in with a dose of modern Left wing political leanings.
Its just Afrian paganism from totally diffrent regions, mixed together, added to a blend of politics.

 

[Creech]

Even amongst white Americans, you all have diffrent cultures and backgrounds, there is people in the USA Proud to be Irish-American, Anglo-American, Italian American, German American, Jewish-American, Russian American etc

You seem to see ethnic unity as some vague idea of "being white and living in America"

Indeed, many whites in America aren't part of the same nation as me as well. It has become quite confusing sometimes.

 

[Creech]

His rhetoric is not unlike that of white nationalists I've seen around before.

White nationalism doesn't make sense to me. A race is a race, not a nation.

 

[All Englands Skies]

White nationalism doesn't make sense to me. A race is a race, not a nation.

"How so? If you think my concept of a nation strange, then I will explain it to you. My definition of a nation is A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language. I don't know if anyone would consider the early Puritan settlers to be part of the same nation as the Indians, though they lived on the same continent. I believe nations are something organic and are formed over a long period of time, and not something that can just be created and have a specific founding date."

You said the above in red.

You've now contridicted yourself big time, all through this thread you've been posting the arguement of how blacks and whites in America are "diffrent nations"

Now you're saying a race is a race and not a nation?

You've basically set the frame work for your entire arguement and beliefs, than gone and blown it out of the water, as your concepts dont add up.

 

[Creech]

"How so? If you think my concept of a nation strange, then I will explain it to you. My definition of a nation is A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language. I don't know if anyone would consider the early Puritan settlers to be part of the same nation as the Indians, though they lived on the same continent. I believe nations are something organic and are formed over a long period of time, and not something that can just be created and have a specific founding date."

You said the above in red.

You've now contridicted yourself big time, all through this thread you've been posting the arguement of how blacks and whites in America are "diffrent nations"

Now you're saying a race is a race and not a nation?

You've basically set the frame work for your entire arguement and beliefs, than gone and blown it out of the water, as your concepts dont add up.

Forgive me, but I did not mean all blacks are part of the same nation. I am speaking of the African-American people. And I am not just talking about how whites are different from blacks, but many whites are very different from each other culturally, especially from more recent immigrant groups.

 

[praying]

It's not a dodge at all. I asked you a question and you ignored it. I'm not going to accept and recognize a holiday, simply because it celebrates a race and culture that you, nor anyone else that's black, had any choice in choosing.

Also, why are Christians the only ones with recognized federal holidays? Why do I get Easter and Christmas off, but no Eid holidays? How about Jews, who do not get any of their religious holidays off?

What the heck are you talking about? No one asked you to recognize anything. You don't recognize Kwanzaa, okay that's your choice and the same for any other holiday.

And it was a dodge, it did not address anything related to my post.

 

[All Englands Skies]

Forgive me, but I did not mean all blacks are part of the same nation. I am speaking of the African-American people. And I am not just talking about how whites are different from blacks, but many whites are very different from each other culturally, especially from more recent immigrant groups.

But you keep flipping back and forth, one minute defining people by "nation" (even within a nation), then by "race"

So if a black person lays down there life, fighting in the US armed forces, what "Nation" is he fighting for in your logic?

One minute you say culture is organic and ever changing, the next your saying races should be seperate, its a contridiction.

Also what happens if somebody doesnt even base identity as being black and white?

I agree there is diffrences in culture within a Nation.

My world view, culture, beliefs and ideals are mainly influenced by my faith, hense a large part of the time I feel more "culturally intune" with a black Christian than I do with a white atheist.

If I had to define my "nation" on the basis of those who share the same ideals and main cultural beliefs as me, rather than on the grounds of citizenship, ethnicity and sovereignty, I'd actually define my nation as "Christian", rather than define it as anything racial, the people of such a Christian "nation" can be any race, creed, ethnicity or colour, it would not matter.

 

[Creech]

But you keep flipping back and forth, one minute defining people by "nation" (even within a nation), then by "race"

So if a black person lays down there life, fighting in the US armed forces, what "Nation" is he fighting for in your logic?

One minute you say culture is organic and ever changing, the next your saying races should be seperate, its a contridiction.

Also what happens if somebody doesnt even base identity as being black and white?

I agree there is diffrences in culture within a Nation.

My world view, culture, beliefs and ideals are mainly influenced by my faith, hense a large part of the time I feel more "culturally intune" with a black Christian than I do with a white atheist.

If I had to define my "nation" on the basis of those who share the same ideals and main cultural beliefs as me, rather than on the grounds of citizenship, ethnicity and sovereignty, I'd actually define my nation as "Christian", rather than define it as anything racial, the people of such a Christian "nation" can be any race, creed, ethnicity or colour, it would not matter.

I believe that if a person joins the military, they are fighting for the United States and it's cause. And I never said I believe races should be totally separate. I believe that unless it happens by force, most people will naturally congregate to people similar to them. And yes, I too feel a common brotherhood with all people of the world, especially fellow Christians. But that doesn't change the natural differences in humanity.

 

[muslimsoldier4life]

So if a black person lays down there life, fighting in the US armed forces, what "Nation" is he fighting for in your logic?

Well, he wouldn't have did for a nation. He would have died for his brother to the left and right of him. That's how things are seen in the US military, and most militaries I assume as well.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

How so? If you think my concept of a nation strange, then I will explain it to you. My definition of a nation is A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language. I don't know if anyone would consider the early Puritan settlers to be part of the same nation as the Indians, though they lived on the same continent. I believe nations are something organic and are formed over a long period of time, and not something that can just be created and have a specific founding date.

Therefore, although people like the African Americans are geographically very close to me, they are a different people just like how the English are or the Russians are.

Having looked up nation in the dictionary, I do see what you're getting at now.

I was thinking nation in the official, legal sense.

 

[All Englands Skies]

I believe that if a person joins the military, they are fighting for the United States and it's cause. And I never said I believe races should be totally separate. I believe that unless it happens by force, most people will naturally congregate to people similar to them. And yes, I too feel a common brotherhood with all people of the world, especially fellow Christians. But that doesn't change the natural differences in humanity.

But it seems to me, you value the idea of race and racialism over Christian unity.

I get the feeling you're just trying to "dress it up" as something other than racialism, which it just ends up being anyway.

As a self identified "Conservative", I also find it extremely embarressing, that such views are present in a system of beliefs that should be about a mans self worth and merit, than Racialism (which is racialised socialism, more than conservatism)

 

[All Englands Skies]

Having looked up nation in the dictionary, I do see what you're getting at now.

I was thinking nation in the official, legal sense.

Yeah, but then he 180'd on that with another comment about "nation" and "race"

 

[Creech]

But it seems to me, you value the idea of race and racialism over Christian unity.

I get the feeling you're just trying to "dress it up" as something other than racialism, which it just ends up being anyway.

As a self identified "Conservative", I also find it extremely embarressing, that such views are present in a system of beliefs that should be about a mans self worth and merit, than Racialism (which is racialised socialism, more than conservatism)

Not all whites are part of the same nation at all, even in the United States. I am by no means a racialist. For example, I think unique cultures such as the South, the Eastern European area cultures, have a different culture and heritage than me. There are even ethnic enclaves of every nationality that are far different from my culture. I am by no means against Christian brotherhood and unity. I am also not in favor of total separation from everyone but your own culture. But I think culture, heritage, and nationhood are all vital parts of human diversity that should be acknowledged and preserved.