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'Knowledge' of Existence

Chriliman

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An honest answer is all I'm looking for :)

Circling back to the 'knowledge of existence'...

If you only have your brain to assess all thoughts, how are you then able to discern which thoughts were directed from your own self inflicted consciousness, verses directly from God, verses directly from the devil, or verses directly from an alternate entity? What actual mechanism (TELLS) you, like a 'proxy agent', which thoughts are from whom?


This was a question I posed couple of years ago, expressed to many clergy, pastors, ministers, and the like.

I have yet to receive, what I would call, a worthy answer.

Would you care to take a crack at it?

Great question! I think ti has more to do with God's desire to be all in all, which means he'll refine and correct you, but at the same time it's up to you to not reject His love and correction. Once God is in someone, His will is their will and vise versa, as One. They do good in the world, cause change for the better, you know, Godly things. This is why its said, "You'll know them by their fruits", good fruit vs bad fruit.

Hope this is satisfactory.
 
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cvanwey

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Great question! I think ti has more to do with God's desire to be all in all, which means he'll refine and correct you, but at the same time it's up to you to not reject His love and correction. Once God is in someone, His will is their will and vise versa, as One. They do good in the world, cause change for the better, you know, Godly things. This is why its said, "You'll know them by their fruits", good fruit vs bad fruit.

Hope this is satisfactory.

Thank you.

I have no choice but to now re-address the OT, in which you admit, some passages may be suspect.?.?.? So when you state you can
"know them by their fruits", and also, "good fruit vs bad fruit", this again is where it gets a little confusing. What's (your) definitions of 'good' and 'bad'? Is it simply (1) your own intuitions/opinions? Or, is it instead (2) whatever God commands, (whether you agree or not - like dashing babies, slavery, directed killing in war, yada yada yada)?

************************

Next, if I'm hearing you correctly, it sounds as if you are saying that ALL consciousness is given by God? Meaning, the mechanism and ability to initiate organized thoughts and consciousness is given by Yahweh. God then allows for 'free will' or 'free choice' of any/all such organized thoughts. And it is up to us humans to determine which thoughts we enact upon, as the devil also has the ability to tempt such otherwise pure thoughts???? Am I warm?

*************************

Also, would you mind addressing post #190? As it relates to your responses :)
 
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Sanoy

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If that's what you want to call my response to your initial insults, okay. And I have no problem leaving the ones, you've initiated, up there :)

If I'm so confused, so apparently inept, just move on.... Why waste your precious time? But I will happily remove anything you request, if you can please just stop responding to my threads. There's plenty of fish in the sea. I find it odd, however, that you have repeatedly addressed mine? (rhetorical question, not meant for a response).

I did not insult you. If you wish me gone you will correct that false statement, as my leaving is of my own volition. Otherwise I will remain to defend myself against that smear.

It's an open forum that allows me to speak in any thread within my designtion. I will leave this thread, per your personal wishes, provided you make the due corrections you undid to reply to me, but I will enter another thread of yours if I wish to join the conversation. If you don't like me, or my counter arguments, then you have the option to ignore me, that is what that feature is for. This is an open forum where any may disagree within the rules.

A reply is not required, this will be my last post here provided you make the corrections, which I will be looking for. Though if you do put me on ignore let me know so that I know not to bother speaking to you directly.
 
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cvanwey

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I did not insult you. If you wish me gone you will correct that false statement, as my leaving is of my own volition. Otherwise I will remain to defend myself against that smear.

It's an open forum that allows me to speak in any thread within my designtion. I will leave this thread, per your personal wishes, provided you make the due corrections you undid to reply to me, but I will enter another thread of yours if I wish to join the conversation. If you don't like me, or my counter arguments, then you have the option to ignore me, that is what that feature is for. This is an open forum where any may disagree within the rules.

A reply is not required, this will be my last post here provided you make the corrections, which I will be looking for. Though if you do put me on ignore let me know so that I know not to bother speaking to you directly.

Sorry buddy, you keep moving the goal posts. Do as you wish. This will be my last reply to you. You are spending far too much time (on me). Your continued glossed over answers, to my prior observations, will also remain there for all to see.

Ta ta
 
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Sanoy

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Sorry buddy, you keep moving the goal posts. Do as you wish. This will be my last reply to you. You are spending far too much time (on me). Your continued glossed over answers, to my prior observations, will also remain there for all to see.

Ta ta
The goal was for you to stop smearing me.

Your observations are not a rebuttal to deductive reasoning. If the premises are true, the conclusion follows. So you will have to deny the premises, which are explicit theological facts. Your observations, which appear to be just vague slogans, do not deny the premises, and so the conclusion follows.

I will repeat it again and give you another opportunity to rebut it validly by rejecting a theological premise on theological grounds as theology is presupposed..

Let me recap those points.
  • 1. It is a theological fact that everyone has sufficient knowledge for salvation or condemnation(Romans 1:20 & Romans 2:15)
  • 2. It is a theological fact that greater knowledge of God leads to greater condemnation to those who reject (Matthew 10:15)
  • 3. It is a theological fact that those with a hardened heart cannot enter God's rest (Psalm 95:8-11)
  • 4. It is a theological fact that mere Knowledge does not save (Psalm 95:8-11)

Conclusion - greater knowledge (1) will lead to greater condemnation (2) for those with a hardened heart (3), and those without a hardened heart already have enough knowledge for salvation (Romans 2:15). So what you ask is misguided.

I hope to see you engage what has been presented to you.
 
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Chriliman

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Thank you.

I have no choice but to now re-address the OT, in which you admit, some passages may be suspect.?.?.? So when you state you can
"know them by their fruits", and also, "good fruit vs bad fruit", this again is where it gets a little confusing. What's (your) definitions of 'good' and 'bad'? Is it simply (1) your own intuitions/opinions? Or, is it instead (2) whatever God commands, (whether you agree or not - like dashing babies, slavery, directed killing in war, yada yada yada)?

All we can really do is acknowledge that other beings exist in objective reality and that it's objectively good to be caring and loving towards them. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is part of the problem not the solution.

, if I'm hearing you correctly, it sounds as if you are saying that ALL consciousness is given by God? Meaning, the mechanism and ability to initiate organized thoughts and consciousness is given by Yahweh. God then allows for 'free will' or 'free choice' of any/all such organized thoughts. And it is up to us humans to determine which thoughts we enact upon, as the devil also has the ability to tempt such otherwise pure thoughts???? Am I warm?

Yea, in general, I'd agree with that.

, would you mind addressing post #190? As it relates to your responses :)

God interacts with each of us at different times and in different ways and there may even be times when he leaves us alone for a time, maybe because our hearts are not yet ready to receive Him.

This is all I have for you.

Peace,
 
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cvanwey

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All we can really do is acknowledge that other beings exist in objective reality and that it's objectively good to be caring and loving towards them. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that is part of the problem not the solution.

Again, I appreciate your response.

I would assume this is how you've then concluded what verses were inspired by Yahweh, and which ones were not. Meaning, the 'good' ones were and the 'bad' ones weren't. Which begs the next question,
not addressed, in which I will address again; as it becomes imperative, in the quest for truth.

2 Timothy 3:16 states all scripture is God inspired. This brings up a major paradox.

Was this specific verse given by God? yes (or) no

If 'yes', then your prior response does not correlate, as this verse represents the antithesis to your conclusion - (that all 'good' verses are from God and all 'bad' verses were not).

If 'no'. How do you 'know', since this verse in benign, or even detached, from the concept of 'good' or 'bad' in any capacity. What barometer reading, standard, or metric are you actually using to determine which Bible verses were God given, and which ones were not????


Why is this the method you are using as your basis for conclusion?????


God interacts with each of us at different times and in different ways and there may even be times when he leaves us alone for a time, maybe because our hearts are not yet ready to receive Him.

This is all I have for you.

Peace,

I appreciate the response again. However, this did not address my observation. So I will instead answer your specific response anyways...

God has apparently NEVER interacted with me, if I'm being honest with myself. And if He had/has, I am NOT aware of it honestly. I can only be intellectually honest with myself.

Furthermore, as stated prior, you do not need to be 'ready' to accept something as reality. You can, however, deny it though. But you either accept it's existence or you don't.

(i.e.) Being diagnosed with a terminal disease.... The doctor can present the results, and demonstrate truth in the diagnosis. And yet, you can still deny it's reality (which ironically is the first of the six stages of grieving). However, regardless of your 'readied' state, you have NO choice, but to accept the 'knowledge of existence' for this reality. So when you state, 'maybe because our hearts are not yet ready to receive Him,' this does not appear logical.


Seems odd that a claimed all loving God would not at least present 'evidence' to satisfy my specific criteria, to at least 'know' He exists. Otherwise, again, it's like referencing post #190.

Why remain hidden to me, especially after decades of genuine inquiry? He seems to reveal to some, and not others. "knowledge of existence' does not mess with 'free choice', 'free will', and would provide the necessary evidence to determine if the known entity exists to possibly love, hate, rebel, etc... And since God seemed to go out of His way to demonstrate existence to some, why not others?
 
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Chriliman

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Again, I appreciate your response.

I would assume this is how you've then concluded what verses were inspired by Yahweh, and which ones were not. Meaning, the 'good' ones were and the 'bad' ones weren't. Which begs the next question,
not addressed, in which I will address again; as it becomes imperative, in the quest for truth.

2 Timothy 3:16 states all scripture is God inspired. This brings up a major paradox.

Was this specific verse given by God? yes (or) no

If 'yes', then your prior response does not correlate, as this verse represents the antithesis to your conclusion - (that all 'good' verses are from God and all 'bad' verses were not).

If 'no'. How do you 'know', since this verse in benign, or even detached, from the concept of 'good' or 'bad' in any capacity. What barometer reading, standard, or metric are you actually using to determine which Bible verses were God given, and which ones were not????


Why is this the method you are using as your basis for conclusion?????

I'm going to be short because I don't have much time. 2 Timothy 3:16 isn't refereeing to all scripture in the Bible, since as you said, the NT didn't yet exist. So when we read that scripture we should read it as "All scripture inspired by God, is God breathed." which again, doesn't necissarily include all scripture in the Bible, whether it's OT or NT. It's just referring to scripture in general, it's certainly not saying "All scripture in the Bible is God breathed".

I appreciate the response again. However, this did not address my observation. So I will instead answer your specific response anyways...

God has apparently NEVER interacted with me, if I'm being honest with myself. And if He had/has, I am NOT aware of it honestly. I can only be intellectually honest with myself.

Furthermore, as stated prior, you do not need to be 'ready' to accept something as reality. You can, however, deny it though. But you either accept it's existence or you don't.

(i.e.) Being diagnosed with a terminal disease.... The doctor can present the results, and demonstrate truth in the diagnosis. And yet, you can still deny it's reality (which ironically is the first of the six stages of grieving). However, regardless of your 'readied' state, you have NO choice, but to accept the 'knowledge of existence' for this reality. So when you state, 'maybe because our hearts are not yet ready to receive Him,' this does not appear logical.

Seems odd that a claimed all loving God would not at least present 'evidence' to satisfy my specific criteria, to at least 'know' He exists. Otherwise, again, it's like referencing post #190.

Why remain hidden to me, especially after decades of genuine inquiry? He seems to reveal to some, and not others. "knowledge of existence' does not mess with 'free choice', 'free will', and would provide the necessary evidence to determine if the known entity exists to possibly love, hate, rebel, etc... And since God seemed to go out of His way to demonstrate existence to some, why not others?

I'm going to chew on this more before I address it.

Thanks,
 
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cvanwey

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I'm going to be short because I don't have much time. 2 Timothy 3:16 isn't refereeing to all scripture in the Bible, since as you said, the NT didn't yet exist. So when we read that scripture we should read it as "All scripture inspired by God, is God breathed." which again, doesn't necissarily include all scripture in the Bible, whether it's OT or NT. It's just referring to scripture in general, it's certainly not saying "All scripture in the Bible is God breathed".

I'm going to chew on this more before I address it.

Thanks,

When Paul wrote 2 Timothy 3:16, the NT had yet to be formally formulated. Most of what even you consider, the 'bad' stuff, was written in the OT :)

Regardless, you have yet to answer the paradox.... (yes or no).

Give it some thought, and let me know. Along with the other question(s)...

Based on your criterium -> (The good stuff was given by God and bad stuff was not), does not correlate with a consistent and logical conclusion.

Thanks
 
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cvanwey

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In conclusion, it appears that God has deliberately avoided my requests for proof in mere 'knowledge of existence', despite decades in earnest prayer to demonstrate His existence. This conclusion represents a direct contradiction to claimed omnibenevolence, as avoidance in genuine prayer demonstrates a paradoxical conclusion, in direct contrast to the many verses in the NT regarding answered prayer.

In conclusion, God had no problem demonstrating or revealing His proof of existence to Satan, fallen angels, Sal, etc... All specific individuals whom did not ask for proof of existence, and were still apparently aware of His existence. Some of which, went on to paint God in a great light - (like Sal). And yet, my continued requests appear to go intentionally unanswered? There appears no consistency in logic, for any viable conclusion to such a case.

In conclusion, 'knowledge of existence' by all, would represent a level playing field for all. Many wars would never have happened, or may never happen in the future. Yes, many may rebel, but belief in existence would not be the crux of the mater; and the term 'atheism' would cease to exist, as it would not be a necessary term - just as much so a 'asantanclausist'. Seems odd that, thousands of years later, philosophers are still severely divided, in regards to the sheer question of existence for a God, as opposed to instead ONLY arguing for which attributes are actually just or divine, from this 'known' specific God(s). What point does God accomplish, by continuing to remain the world's greatest hide-and-seek champion for so many?

In conclusion, humans have a natural tendency to apply 'intentional agency' and 'false positives'. Humans also have a natural tendency to draw connections, where no connections may apply. This could be due to our selfish nature, and applying 'closure' to unknown propositions. Many times, all such unknown attributes may also lead to 'knee-jerk' reactions for 'God', via fallacious argumentation. (i.e.) 'Can you explain this to me? Oh, you can't? Well then, God best demonstrates the answer, until proven otherwise.' Or in other words, the argument from ignorance, or shifting the burden of proof, often times prevails as one's 'justification', rather than instead receiving direct 'evidence' for knowledge of existence.

In conclusion, one does not need to mentally prepare themselves for 'knowledge of existence.' Whether I like it or not, I could be made aware of a diagnosed disease. I could certainly deny it, but it would be lying to myself to do so. I find it offensive when some accuse me of denying the 'truth.' They do not know me. And yet, accuse me of lying, as if I somehow 'know' God exists, and are just in denial. My honest conclusion, as stated in my OP, is that my doubt for God/gods is the same as extra terrestrials. I have no evidence of either, in the very same capacity. And yet, the same level of 'proof' has been brought forth to me, for both gods and extra terrestrials. Hence, I am a skeptic for both. Can and do both such claims be true? Of course. However, I legitimately doubt both currently.

In conclusion, God appears inconsistent in His agenda. God provides divine revelation for some. And yet, expects others to go a lifetime instead instilling 'faith', for the hope and belief that this actual God is real. Again, seems inconsistent and odd....

Seems peculiar, that thousands of years later, the best apologetics arguments for the existence of God appear to be the ontological argument, teleological argument, moral argument, Pascal's Wager, Kalam, etc... And not instead everyone just 'knowing' of His actual existence (with 'better' evidence), and instead then assessing what one will actually do with this 'known' fact (Like Sal, doubting Thomas, etc...).

For me personally, the knowledge of existence to Jesus would mean the following. I would have NO choice but to reconcile that the Bible was actually inspired by a higher power. I would then have NO choice but to then reconcile that many of my own personal conclusions about the Bible, are simply mistaken. Or, I would not instead simply currently dismiss them, when such assertions do not appear to align with my discovered reality to the contrary. I would have NO choice, but to view the Bible from an entirely different lens - (just like the many devout Christians do now - by rationalizing the many parts in which they may find discomfort with). I feel believers do this because they have their 'knowledge of justified existence', and then associate the Bible as absolute truth, because they feel they have no choice, as such believers think the risen Christ is reality.

In conclusion, no more debates, arguments, or wars would logically exist, in regards to 'which God is the real God or the better God.'

The only remaining conflict would then be for all to reconcile the passages in which do not appear to jive with many. However, the conflict between many would not be, in correlation to 'atheism', but instead disagreeing with the verbiage, context, or meaning of such passages.

And yes, many would still argue that maybe this God is fallible. However, no one in their right mind, would state He does not at least exist. That specific argument would be put to rest once and for all.


But as it stands, many reject the Bible, because they simply dismiss such a book as man written (absent of any divine authorship).

Hence, the reason I feel the 'knowledge of existence' becomes the crux of the matter at hand.

Does anyone have any additional comments, observations, suggestions, advice, 'epiphanies', justifications, etc...?
 
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Chriliman

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In conclusion, it appears that God has deliberately avoided my requests for proof in mere 'knowledge of existence', despite decades in earnest prayer to demonstrate His existence. This conclusion represents a direct contradiction to claimed omnibenevolence, as avoidance in genuine prayer demonstrates a paradoxical conclusion, in direct contrast to the many verses in the NT regarding answered prayer.

In conclusion, God had no problem demonstrating or revealing His proof of existence to Satan, fallen angels, Sal, etc... All specific individuals whom did not ask for proof of existence, and were still apparently aware of His existence. Some of which, went on to paint God in a great light - (like Sal). And yet, my continued requests appear to go intentionally unanswered? There appears no consistency in logic, for any viable conclusion to such a case.

In conclusion, 'knowledge of existence' by all, would represent a level playing field for all. Many wars would never have happened, or may never happen in the future. Yes, many may rebel, but belief in existence would not be the crux of the mater; and the term 'atheism' would cease to exist, as it would not be a necessary term - just as much so a 'asantanclausist'. Seems odd that, thousands of years later, philosophers are still severely divided, in regards to the sheer question of existence for a God, as opposed to instead ONLY arguing for which attributes are actually just or divine, from this 'known' specific God(s). What point does God accomplish, by continuing to remain the world's greatest hide-and-seek champion for so many?

In conclusion, humans have a natural tendency to apply 'intentional agency' and 'false positives'. Humans also have a natural tendency to draw connections, where no connections may apply. This could be due to our selfish nature, and applying 'closure' to unknown propositions. Many times, all such unknown attributes may also lead to 'knee-jerk' reactions for 'God', via fallacious argumentation. (i.e.) 'Can you explain this to me? Oh, you can't? Well then, God best demonstrates the answer, until proven otherwise.' Or in other words, the argument from ignorance, or shifting the burden of proof, often times prevails as one's 'justification', rather than instead receiving direct 'evidence' for knowledge of existence.

In conclusion, one does not need to mentally prepare themselves for 'knowledge of existence.' Whether I like it or not, I could be made aware of a diagnosed disease. I could certainly deny it, but it would be lying to myself to do so. I find it offensive when some accuse me of denying the 'truth.' They do not know me. And yet, accuse me of lying, as if I somehow 'know' God exists, and are just in denial. My honest conclusion, as stated in my OP, is that my doubt for God/gods is the same as extra terrestrials. I have no evidence of either, in the very same capacity. And yet, the same level of 'proof' has been brought forth to me, for both gods and extra terrestrials. Hence, I am a skeptic for both. Can and do both such claims be true? Of course. However, I legitimately doubt both currently.

In conclusion, God appears inconsistent in His agenda. God provides divine revelation for some. And yet, expects others to go a lifetime instead instilling 'faith', for the hope and belief that this actual God is real. Again, seems inconsistent and odd....

Seems peculiar, that thousands of years later, the best apologetics arguments for the existence of God appear to be the ontological argument, teleological argument, moral argument, Pascal's Wager, Kalam, etc... And not instead everyone just 'knowing' of His actual existence (with 'better' evidence), and instead then assessing what one will actually do with this 'known' fact (Like Sal, doubting Thomas, etc...).

For me personally, the knowledge of existence to Jesus would mean the following. I would have NO choice but to reconcile that the Bible was actually inspired by a higher power. I would then have NO choice but to then reconcile that many of my own personal conclusions about the Bible, are simply mistaken. Or, I would not instead simply currently dismiss them, when such assertions do not appear to align with my discovered reality to the contrary. I would have NO choice, but to view the Bible from an entirely different lens - (just like the many devout Christians do now - by rationalizing the many parts in which they may find discomfort with). I feel believers do this because they have their 'knowledge of justified existence', and then associate the Bible as absolute truth, because they feel they have no choice, as such believers think the risen Christ is reality.

In conclusion, no more debates, arguments, or wars would logically exist, in regards to 'which God is the real God or the better God.'

The only remaining conflict would then be for all to reconcile the passages in which do not appear to jive with many. However, the conflict between many would not be, in correlation to 'atheism', but instead disagreeing with the verbiage, context, or meaning of such passages.

And yes, many would still argue that maybe this God is fallible. However, no one in their right mind, would state He does not at least exist. That specific argument would be put to rest once and for all.


But as it stands, many reject the Bible, because they simply dismiss such a book as man written (absent of any divine authorship).

Hence, the reason I feel the 'knowledge of existence' becomes the crux of the matter at hand.

Does anyone have any additional comments, observations, suggestions, advice, 'epiphanies', justifications, etc...?

We’re all coming around to realize God in us and then to deny God’s existence would be to deny our own existence. If you act like God in any way, whether being loving, kind, or patiently correcting someone, then God is working through you, whether you realize it or not.

Regardless, keep searching for truth in love. :)
 
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cvanwey

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We’re all coming around to realize God in us and then to deny God’s existence would be to deny our own existence. If you act like God in any way, whether being loving, kind, or patiently correcting someone, then God is working through you, whether you realize it or not.

Regardless, keep searching for truth in love. :)

This answer completely sidestepped practically everything I mentioned, but thanks anyways, I guess?
 
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Chriliman

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This answer completely sidestepped practically everything I mentioned, but thanks anyways, I guess?

You're right and I apologize for not having enough time to work through it all with you right now. Hopefully someone else will have time or we'll have more time in the future.

For now, thank you for your thoughts and questions, it has been interesting!
 
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In conclusion, it appears that God has deliberately avoided my requests for proof in mere 'knowledge of existence', despite decades in earnest prayer to demonstrate His existence. This conclusion represents a direct contradiction to claimed omnibenevolence, as avoidance in genuine prayer demonstrates a paradoxical conclusion, in direct contrast to the many verses in the NT regarding answered prayer.

In conclusion, God had no problem demonstrating or revealing His proof of existence to Satan, fallen angels, Sal, etc... All specific individuals whom did not ask for proof of existence, and were still apparently aware of His existence. Some of which, went on to paint God in a great light - (like Sal). And yet, my continued requests appear to go intentionally unanswered? There appears no consistency in logic, for any viable conclusion to such a case.

In conclusion, 'knowledge of existence' by all, would represent a level playing field for all. Many wars would never have happened, or may never happen in the future. Yes, many may rebel, but belief in existence would not be the crux of the mater; and the term 'atheism' would cease to exist, as it would not be a necessary term - just as much so a 'asantanclausist'. Seems odd that, thousands of years later, philosophers are still severely divided, in regards to the sheer question of existence for a God, as opposed to instead ONLY arguing for which attributes are actually just or divine, from this 'known' specific God(s). What point does God accomplish, by continuing to remain the world's greatest hide-and-seek champion for so many?

In conclusion, humans have a natural tendency to apply 'intentional agency' and 'false positives'. Humans also have a natural tendency to draw connections, where no connections may apply. This could be due to our selfish nature, and applying 'closure' to unknown propositions. Many times, all such unknown attributes may also lead to 'knee-jerk' reactions for 'God', via fallacious argumentation. (i.e.) 'Can you explain this to me? Oh, you can't? Well then, God best demonstrates the answer, until proven otherwise.' Or in other words, the argument from ignorance, or shifting the burden of proof, often times prevails as one's 'justification', rather than instead receiving direct 'evidence' for knowledge of existence.

In conclusion, one does not need to mentally prepare themselves for 'knowledge of existence.' Whether I like it or not, I could be made aware of a diagnosed disease. I could certainly deny it, but it would be lying to myself to do so. I find it offensive when some accuse me of denying the 'truth.' They do not know me. And yet, accuse me of lying, as if I somehow 'know' God exists, and are just in denial. My honest conclusion, as stated in my OP, is that my doubt for God/gods is the same as extra terrestrials. I have no evidence of either, in the very same capacity. And yet, the same level of 'proof' has been brought forth to me, for both gods and extra terrestrials. Hence, I am a skeptic for both. Can and do both such claims be true? Of course. However, I legitimately doubt both currently.

In conclusion, God appears inconsistent in His agenda. God provides divine revelation for some. And yet, expects others to go a lifetime instead instilling 'faith', for the hope and belief that this actual God is real. Again, seems inconsistent and odd....

Seems peculiar, that thousands of years later, the best apologetics arguments for the existence of God appear to be the ontological argument, teleological argument, moral argument, Pascal's Wager, Kalam, etc... And not instead everyone just 'knowing' of His actual existence (with 'better' evidence), and instead then assessing what one will actually do with this 'known' fact (Like Sal, doubting Thomas, etc...).

For me personally, the knowledge of existence to Jesus would mean the following. I would have NO choice but to reconcile that the Bible was actually inspired by a higher power. I would then have NO choice but to then reconcile that many of my own personal conclusions about the Bible, are simply mistaken. Or, I would not instead simply currently dismiss them, when such assertions do not appear to align with my discovered reality to the contrary. I would have NO choice, but to view the Bible from an entirely different lens - (just like the many devout Christians do now - by rationalizing the many parts in which they may find discomfort with). I feel believers do this because they have their 'knowledge of justified existence', and then associate the Bible as absolute truth, because they feel they have no choice, as such believers think the risen Christ is reality.

In conclusion, no more debates, arguments, or wars would logically exist, in regards to 'which God is the real God or the better God.'

The only remaining conflict would then be for all to reconcile the passages in which do not appear to jive with many. However, the conflict between many would not be, in correlation to 'atheism', but instead disagreeing with the verbiage, context, or meaning of such passages.

And yes, many would still argue that maybe this God is fallible. However, no one in their right mind, would state He does not at least exist. That specific argument would be put to rest once and for all.


But as it stands, many reject the Bible, because they simply dismiss such a book as man written (absent of any divine authorship).

Hence, the reason I feel the 'knowledge of existence' becomes the crux of the matter at hand.

Does anyone have any additional comments, observations, suggestions, advice, 'epiphanies', justifications, etc...?
You spent a great deal of time putting forth your argument and please understand that I am not dismissing it or not responding in full due to an answer is already in your post.

You said You would have NO CHOICE. That is the key here. God wants it to be a choice. He continues to want it to be a choice. He will always give a person a way out of believing if that is what THEY DESIRE. Even those who have given their lives over to Him, He will continue to give a way out if that is something they want to do.
 
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cvanwey

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You spent a great deal of time putting forth your argument and please understand that I am not dismissing it or not responding in full due to an answer is already in your post.

You said You would have NO CHOICE. That is the key here. God wants it to be a choice. He continues to want it to be a choice. He will always give a person a way out of believing if that is what THEY DESIRE. Even those who have given their lives over to Him, He will continue to give a way out if that is something they want to do.

I think you are misrepresenting what I mean by 'no choice'. 'No choice', in this specific case, means my brain would have 'no choice' to acknowledge existence. Meaning, I would have 'no choice' to conclude Yahweh actually exists, just the same as I have 'no choice' to acknowledge the existence of my biological parents. Just like I have 'no choice' to conclude the existence of my employer. Meaning, it isn't a choice. From there, I still have PLENTY of choice - (obey, deny, love, form a relationship, rebel, ignore, follow, reject, disobey, follow some commands and reject others, etc etc etc.).

You are an 'atheist' to all other claimed and asserted gods, except your own. Why is that? I will tell you why. Because you do not think they exist - (which is basically the meaning of the word). Hence, you do not care, or have any desire to follow the claims and assertions made by such believed conclusions. Why, simply because you do not think such gods are real. However, what if you received confirmed knowledge that Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu did exist; without question? This would mean you then have NO CHOICE to conclude they do exist. Just like you do not have a choice to conclude America exists as a country. You still have plenty of free choice, free will, free everything, to determine what you do with this information - the same apparently as Satan, the fallen angels, Sal, doubting Thomas, ancient pharaohs, the disciples, Noah, Abram, etc....

Knowledge of existence isn't even a choice really. Otherwise, choose to NO LONGER believe your parents exist/existed. This is what I mean by 'no choice'. Claimed 'divine hiddenness' can be applied to any unknown deity.

I'm simply stating I have never received any proof of existence. And yet, here I am, 40+ years later, still addressing the topic. If I was aware of His existence, I could then spend all such efforts instead addressing the Bible in a presuppositional way, as all other believers currently do. Meaning, I would be reading the Bible in the assurance that the Bible was a book, which was given or inspired by the said known deity, and not instead only humans beings, and their own subjective opinions. I still have plenty of choice to follow, reject, or even pick-and-choose - just like the hundreds of denominations in Christianity do.

Would you worship an entity you did not think existed? No. Can you force yourself to believe something, in which you have doubt of it's reality? No. Otherwise, 'make' yourself believe you can fly, and jump off the nearest tall building. You see, you have 'no choice' to conclude the belief in your known reality is not even a choice. Hence, it becomes 'no choice.'
 
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Oncedeceived

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I think you are misrepresenting what I mean by 'no choice'. 'No choice', in this specific case, means my brain would have 'no choice' to acknowledge existence. Meaning, I would have 'no choice' to conclude Yahweh actually exists, just the same as I have 'no choice' to acknowledge the existence of my biological parents. Just like I have 'no choice' to conclude the existence of my employer. Meaning, it isn't a choice. From there, I still have PLENTY of choice - (obey, deny, love, form a relationship, rebel, ignore, follow, reject, disobey, follow some commands and reject others, etc etc etc.).

You are an 'atheist' to all other claimed and asserted gods, accept your own. Why is that? I will tell you why. Because you do not think they exist - (which is basically the meaning of the word). Hence, you do not care, or have any desire to follow the claims and assertions made by such believed conclusions. Why, simply because you do not think such gods are real. However, what if you received confirmed knowledge that Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu did exist; without question? This would mean you then have NO CHOICE to conclude they do exist. Just like you do not have a choice to conclude America exists as a country. You still have plenty of free choice, free will, free everything, to determine what you do with this information - the same apparently as Satan, the fallen angels, Sal, doubting Thomas, ancient pharaohs, the disciples, Noah, Abram, etc....

Knowledge of existence isn't even a choice really. Otherwise, choose to NO LONGER believe your parents exist/existed. This is what I mean by 'no choice'. Claimed 'divine hiddenness' can be applied to any unknown deity.

I'm simply stating I have never received any proof of existence. And yet, here I am, 40+ years later, still addressing the topic. If I was aware of His existence, I could then spend all such efforts instead addressing the Bible in a presuppositional way, as all other believers currently do. Meaning, I would be reading the Bible in the assurance that the Bible was a book, which was given or inspired by the said known deity, and not instead only humans beings, and their own subjective opinions. I still have plenty of choice to follow, reject, or even pick-and-choose - just like the hundreds of denominations in Christianity do.

Would you worship an entity you did not think existed? No. Can you force yourself to believe something, in which you have doubt of it's reality? No. Otherwise, 'make' yourself believe you can fly, and jump off the nearest tall building. You see, you have 'no choice' to conclude the belief in your known reality is not even a choice. Hence, it becomes 'no choice.'

I have to say that I agree with everything you just said. It was like reading what I've experience in a nutshell. In the beginning I could only believe that perhaps God could exist. I wondered how so many Christians could be so sure. Now, I really don't have a choice to think that the Christian God doesn't exist. I have through the journey doubted certain things about the Christian faith and have learned more about God in the process.

My next question is this, do you think that there is any evidence that supports God's existence?
 
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I have to say that I agree with everything you just said. It was like reading what I've experience in a nutshell. In the beginning I could only believe that perhaps God could exist. I wondered how so many Christians could be so sure. Now, I really don't have a choice to think that the Christian God doesn't exist. I have through the journey doubted certain things about the Christian faith and have learned more about God in the process.

Yes. This is exactly why I raise this topic :) I do NOT possess the 'knowledge of existence', like you seem to.

My next question is this, do you think that there is any evidence that supports God's existence?

In all honesty, I completely empathize with a couple of the philosophical or observational arguments, laid forth by the assertion of creationism. For instance, what is the actual 'driving force' behind evolution? Is it simply some form of abiogenesis, (or) other???? We do not yet have enough discovery. Therefore, I have no other choice but to state that 'I don't know.' This is another reason why I label myself a 'skeptic'.

All that aside... When I read the Bible, it appears to not align with my known reality, in practically any way. I can look no further than the book of Genesis. Too much there seems to be in direct conflict with later discovery, rendering the rest no longer credible - (aside from the later conflicting observations addressed upon their own merits, even completely absent from Genesis).

Even if I was a generic deist, I would still have many unanswered questions...

- Is there only one god? How do you know?
- Is this one god perfect? How do you know?
- Is this god still around today? How do you know?
- Does this god really care about humans, or is he just messing with us? How do you know?

'Faith' is not a reliable tool to render such conclusions....

In all honesty, it would be a much easier pill to digest and swallow to conclude deism (without perfection). However, I have absolutely NO CLUE how and possibly why we are here. Science, or any other mechanism, has yet to tell us why. Yes, many conflicting holy books are floating around. And, no other means may ever tell us why we are actually here, if there actually IS a why.....? This is my honest assessment thus far. So until my necessary evidence is laid forth, (whatever that may actually be), I continue skepticism, especially towards asserted Christianity specifically. So why do I spend SOOO much time here? Simple... Decades of indoctrination :) I look to many of you fine people to reach a new perspective.

(Off topic, but interesting to ponder)...

If Jesus really did resurrect, how do I know he was not actually Satan in disguise? - As Satan apparently has the ability to deceive. Meaning, maybe the Orthodox Jews are right in one sense, and Jesus is not the Messiah. How do you actually know Satan did not perform a trick to get humans to break the first commandment (by worshiping a false god)? Makes sense... Many claimed prophets existed prior and there-after. Satan also possesses supernatural powers. Otherwise, he would only be able to communicate with one person at a time, which would not be very productive in the matter of mass deception. (rhetorical questions and comments left for an entirely NEW topic).... :)
 
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Yes. This is exactly why I raise this topic :) I do NOT possess the 'knowledge of existence', like you seem to.



In all honesty, I completely empathize with a couple of the philosophical or observational arguments, laid forth by the assertion of creationism. For instance, what is the actual 'driving force' behind evolution? Is it simply some form of abiogenesis, (or) other???? We do not yet have enough discovery. Therefore, I have no other choice but to state that 'I don't know.' This is another reason why I label myself a 'skeptic'.

All that aside... When I read the Bible, it appears to not align with my known reality, in practically any way. I can look no further than the book of Genesis. Too much there seems to be in direct conflict with later discovery, rendering the rest no longer credible - (aside from the later conflicting observations addressed upon their own merits, even completely absent from Genesis).

Ok. What exactly do you feel does not appear to align with known reality? I am not sure we can go into all you might cite but for informational purposes, I would like to know.

Even if I was a generic deist, I would still have many unanswered questions...

- Is there only one god? How do you know?
- Is this one god perfect? How do you know?
- Is this god still around today? How do you know?
- Does this god really care about humans, or is he just messing with us? How do you know?

'Faith' is not a reliable tool to render such conclusions....
Good questions and ones I've had myself. Is there only one God...and how do I know? If you are asking personally I know because God revealed who He was. I wasn't sure and I even went the route of all roads lead to God, but He set me straight. After knowing who God is the other questions answer themselves.

Faith is that which only comes about after you know that God exists.


In all honesty, it would be a much easier pill to digest and swallow to conclude deism (without perfection). However, I have absolutely NO CLUE how and possibly why we are here. Science, or any other mechanism, has yet to tell us how. Yes, many conflicting holy books are floating around. And, no other means may ever tell us why we are actually here, if there actually IS a why.....? This is my honest assessment thus far. So until my necessary evidence is laid forth, (whatever that may actually be), I continue skepticism, especially towards asserted Christianity specifically. So why do I spend SOOO much time here? Simple... Decades of indoctrination :) I look to many of you fine people to reach a new perspective.
One sure thing is that all the holy books floating around differ in content. So by process of elimination you can posit that they all can't be right. ;) I would be glad to provide some evidence that is convincing to many. I know that evidence however can be dismissed very easily if one wishes to dismiss it.

(Off topic, but interesting to ponder)...

If Jesus really did resurrect, how do I know he was not actually Satan in disguise? - As Satan apparently has the ability to deceive. Meaning, maybe the Orthodox Jews are right in one sense, and Jesus is not the Messiah. How do you actually know Satan did not perform a trick to get humans to break the first commandment (by worshiping a false god)? Makes sense... Many claimed prophets existed prior and there-after. Satan also possesses supernatural powers. Otherwise, he would only be able to communicate with one person at a time, which would not be very productive in the matter of mass deception. (rhetorical questions and comments left for an entirely NEW topic).... :)
By questioning in this way you presuppose the Bible being correct to even project Satan's actions. So, if Satan exists which comes from the Bible, you are in turn using the Bible to propose a true God. The Jews are a very interesting subject which comes into the evidences of the God of the Bible. But alas, it is a new topic. :)
 
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