'Knowledge' of Existence

cvanwey

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I'm aware of [your] beginning,
but this is [my] offer, if you are truly interested.

We haven't even started, and aleardy we are in a endless debate.
If you choose not to answer the question in your next post,
I will have to assume you have taken the blue pill, and are not interested in knowing.​

Okay, I'm taking the 'blue pill' here, out of curiosity, And also, in the hopes that you will actually engage, and demonstrate the 'power of Biblical prophecy'???? ;)

"Straightforward, how many beasts do you count in Revelation 13:1-2?
Point them out!"

1 ..And I saw [a beast] coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.
2 And [the beast] which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion
..

[a beast] + [the beast] = one beast?
 
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7xlightray

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Okay, I'm taking the 'blue pill' here, out of curiosity, And also, in the hopes that you will actually engage, and demonstrate the 'power of Biblical prophecy'???? ;)

"Straightforward, how many beasts do you count in Revelation 13:1-2?
Point them out!"

1 ..And I saw [a beast] coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.
2 And [the beast] which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion
..

[a beast] + [the beast] = one beast?
[Since you answered the question, this would be equivalent to taking the red pill (truth). The blue pill is to remain in ignorance (which you chose, may this not be so, but only a mistake in color).]

That's right, there is one beast, but hold onto that thought..
..Here are two verses (to give aid), as to what scripture defines as beasts..

Acts 11:6 ..I considered, and saw the fourfooted beasts of the earth and wild beasts and creeping things and birds of the heaven.
James 3:7 For every kind of beasts and birds, of creeping things and things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed by mankind:​

Now how many beast do you count (Revelation 13:1-2)?
 
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cvanwey

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[Since you answered the question, this would be equivalent to taking the red pill (truth). The blue pill is to remain in ignorance (which you chose, may this not be so, but only a mistake in color).]

That's right, there is one beast, but hold onto that thought..
..Here are two verses (to give aid), as to what scripture defines as beasts..

Acts 11:6 ..I considered, and saw the fourfooted beasts of the earth and wild beasts and creeping things and birds of the heaven.
James 3:7 For every kind of beasts and birds, of creeping things and things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed by mankind:​

Now how many beast do you count (Revelation 13:1-2)?

I answered your repeated question. You now only have more.... Here's an idea.... Cut to the chase :)

I will now repeat post #695, as a kick-start:


"I asked for, what you feel, would be the most specific and clearest prophecy fulfilled; as given from the Bible. This would be a good starting point. Which is to say, you could furnish the lines of Scripture/Verse, explain exactly what you perceive these Verses to be saying, and then demonstrate how they are so specific and clear, that they could only mean what you think these Verse(s) mean.

At which point, if we both agree, as to what the provided Verse(s) were predicting, we could then move on to the next step. Which is to say, we could then address post #691... Meaning, even if the Bible got something right, how do we know this was foreknowledge from your asserted God?

BUT, if we do not agree, as to what these verses are actually attempting to predict, we could then still explore why we disagree.... For [me], I have read many/most/all Verses of Scripture, at one point or another, and find them vague, and left open to interpretation. Maybe [you] can demonstrate some otherwise???

So please, by all means, list the Verse(s), for which you feel best represents true Bible prophecy. And please explain why."
 
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7xlightray

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I answered your repeated question. You now only have more.... Here's an idea.... Cut to the chase :)

I will now repeat post #695, as a kick-start:


"I asked for, what you feel, would be the most specific and clearest prophecy fulfilled; as given from the Bible. This would be a good starting point. Which is to say, you could furnish the lines of Scripture/Verse, explain exactly what you perceive these Verses to be saying, and then demonstrate how they are so specific and clear, that they could only mean what you think these Verse(s) mean.

At which point, if we both agree, as to what the provided Verse(s) were predicting, we could then move on to the next step. Which is to say, we could then address post #691... Meaning, even if the Bible got something right, how do we know this was foreknowledge from your asserted God?

BUT, if we do not agree, as to what these verses are actually attempting to predict, we could then still explore why we disagree.... For [me], I have read many/most/all Verses of Scripture, at one point or another, and find them vague, and left open to interpretation. Maybe [you] can demonstrate some otherwise???

So please, by all means, list the Verse(s), for which you feel best represents true Bible prophecy. And please explain why."


I told you
why I was here.
It was clear,
you did not
have to accept.
You knew the offer,
It did not change in mid post.
If one doesn't want to understand it, to know it for oneself,
from someone who does, since to this one scripture is vague,
what's the point in hearing?
True blue.​
 
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cvanwey

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I told you
why I was here.
It was clear,
you did not
have to accept.
You knew the offer,
It did not change in mid post.
If one doesn't want to understand it, to know it for oneself,
from someone who does, since to this one scripture is vague,
what's the point in hearing?
True blue.​

Neither did I. And to boot, I answered your question. Again, you picked the wrong arena then ;) You might want to try your fancy poetry tricks in another forum area?
 
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7xlightray

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Neither did I. And to boot, I answered your question. Again, you picked the wrong arena then ;) You might want to try your fancy poetry tricks in another forum area?
Knock, knock..

Again, one more time, you could put any requirement you like on it, it does not concern me, I was here to 'only' present my offer. Which you were free to accept, or refuse a long time ago. Instead you dragged it out until I had to say, if you do not answer the question I'm going to have to assume you rejected my offer and took the blue pill. At which time you reluctantly answered the question, getting it part right, and part wrong. Then in your very next post, 'circular' back to your requirements, keeping your endless debate going (which I have no interest, nor has it anything to do with my offer).

And to answer this statement of yours, "'True prophecy' does not need for me to first perform 'baby steps'" - Truly, for everyone it does (even Christ grew in wisdom), where 'you're not willing' to go..

One of the (obvious) ways to the Knowledge of the invisible God is by prophecy and fulfillment in our day, or as you would have it, a 'Lotto winning psychic', even though you have stated elsewhere..

"if the Bible got something right, how do we know this was foreknowledge from your asserted God?"

..and..

"Reading the Bible to prove the Bible is about as circular as one can get. Honestly, it would be no different then reading a 66 chapter, 40 person authored 'Big Book of Science, 2000 years ago by the 'established scientific high council' of the time period, which is never later allowed to be updated or modified, to confer all absolute answers, while also without confirming outside this one and only book"

..showing flawed, and biased logic.

Which such logic would also produce "Going to a Lotto winning psychic to prove a Lotto winning psychic is about as circular as one can get." Though you also stated that such a psychic you would
"<have to acknowledge> that something 'beyond' does then truly exist."

You say for yourself, scripture is hard to understand, vague, and open to interpretation (but this I would agree, many denominations/nondenominational, something be wrong).
You won't except anybodies word of a prophecy of fulfillment who claim, God spoke in His word, yet, you just want me to tell you.

Knowing under the restraints of your requirements which you have laid down..

1) you would not simply except my word on it's own (leading, or forcing a debate).

2) That this would then require effort on your part, to look into them with help (because their vague, requiring aid), that you may understand them for yourself, yet..

You refuse to put in the effort, relying on someone else to tell you, at which you would not except, anyway (forcing a debate), knowing you would have to see and understand them for yourself (not requiring a debate).

You needlessly prolong a useless, and unnecessary debate, which to my offer only required a Yes, or a No, to end it all.
You were against going though the scriptures, to Know and understand them for yourself.
You refused the help that you received, that you may understand them.
You remain in you circular state, and refuse to get out.

And you blame God for this!?
Saying, 'It's not my fault I don't believe!'
Any seed thrown would bounce off and land wayside.
God justified, you took the blue pill (even before I came along)!
To both reasons as to why I was in this thread, finished, and accomplished.

If you will not, and "God won't," then neither will I.
 
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cvanwey

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Knock, knock..

Again, one more time, you could put any requirement you like on it, it does not concern me, I was here to 'only' present my offer.

Patently false. In post #688, you made an assertion. You stated
"you would be looking for is prophecy" as well.....

..... Well, I'm not so sure here, that this would be an additional fundamental criteria. In my OP, I stated that the 'knowledge' of existence might only be achieved by 'direct revelation or contact'. -- Like Sal of Taurus or doubting Thomas, for example....

Do we at least agree on what would be needed to demonstrate a successful prophecy? (i.e.) details, specifics, unambiguity, not being open to translation/interpretation, etc? You tell me????? Wait a minute, you refuse :(

Furthermore, if a prophecy was fulfilled to our mutual agreement, does this mean/prove it came from (your) asserted God?

Since we likely conquer/agree in these questions, then why explore the topic of prophecy at all?

My only gripe here, and in addressing your response, is that I have read the Bible, and find no compelling prophecy. Instead of demonstrating why [you] disagree, you want to send me on a wild-goose-chase.

My contention is that if [you] felt confident in a Biblical prophetic assertion, you would at least present it ;) But you don't. Quite curious...?


"Reading the Bible to prove the Bible is about as circular as one can get. Honestly, it would be no different then reading a 66 chapter, 40 person authored 'Big Book of Science, 2000 years ago by the 'established scientific high council' of the time period, which is never later allowed to be updated or modified, to confer all absolute answers, while also without confirming outside this one and only book"

..showing flawed, and biased logic.

Which such logic would also produce "Going to a Lotto winning psychic to prove a Lotto winning psychic is about as circular as one can get." Though you also stated that such a psychic you would
"<have to acknowledge> that something 'beyond' does then truly exist."

Nope. You must go outside <the source> to confirm the claim of <the source>. If we want to get 'into it', it could be effectively argued that the authors of the Bible are all 'bias' -- leading to 'flawed logic' ;) Same goes for the 'psychic'. You do not take the word of the psychic at face-value, do you? No. You test the psychic's claim, -- invoking outside testing and/or investigation. You do not take his/her claims for face-value, with no outside conformation or external conformation.

You say for yourself, scripture is hard to understand, vague, and open to interpretation (but this I would agree, many denominations/nondenominational, something be wrong).
You won't except anybodies word of a prophecy of fulfillment who claim, God spoke in His word, yet, you just want me to tell you.

Maybe we will actually get somewhere here? Do you too agree that prophecy from the Bible is vague, and left open to interpretation??? If so, then how are you able to assert Biblical prophecy at all? ---> Then refer back to your own brand of 'flawed logic' and 'bias.' :)



1) you would not simply except my word on it's own (leading, or forcing a debate).

How would you know? You refuse to offer any.


2) That this would then require effort on your part, to look into them with help (because their vague, requiring aid), that you may understand them for yourself, yet..

You refuse to put in the effort, relying on someone else to tell you, at which you would not except, anyway (forcing a debate), knowing you would have to see and understand them for yourself (not requiring a debate).

Since you seem to be intently following many/most/all of my posts, you would then already know that I have read the Bible, and contribute here extensively. Hence, your claim that I "refuse to put in the effort" falls flat. Furthermore, How am I supposed to know your 'proofs' UNLESS YOU TELL ME?

Give me a prophecy which demonstrates your God?


You needlessly prolong a useless, and unnecessary debate, which to my offer only required a Yes, or a No, to end it all.
You were against going though the scriptures, to Know and understand them for yourself.
You refused the help that you received, that you may understand them.
You remain in you circular state, and refuse to get out.

And you blame God for this!?
Saying, 'It's not my fault I don't believe!'
Any seed thrown would bounce off and land wayside.
God justified, you took the blue pill (even before I came along)!
To both reasons as to why I was in this thread, finished, and accomplished.

If you will not, and "God won't," then neither will I.

The rest here needs no response.... Please simply address my replies, as given above, as sufficient.
 
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7xlightray

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Nope. You must go outside <the source> to confirm the claim of <the source>. If we want to get 'into it', it could be effectively argued that the authors of the Bible are all 'bias' -- leading to 'flawed logic' ;) Same goes for the 'psychic'. You do not take the word of the psychic at face-value, do you? No. You test the psychic's claim, -- invoking outside testing and/or investigation. You do not take his/her claims for face-value, with no outside conformation or external conformation.
Staying true to your biased logic (which will cloud comprehension).
What would fulfilled prophecy in our day be?? An outside source!
 
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cvanwey

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I would like to BUMP post #687. No one seems to want to touch it, thus far?

I would like to re-open this discussion, with another layer added...

As I stated, in the OP, If I received personal 'revelation' to the 'Holy Spirit', or 'God', or other, I might be arguing upon the theistic side, rather than from a skeptical position?

Furthermore, I have to ask, in earnest....

Does the entire topic of apologetics even matter???? -->(video to explain attached at the bottom)....

Or, is apologetics instead just a mental exercise to further defend your unwavering position, no matter what? Could any amount of "reason" change your current belief? Or, is reason not really the 'reason' you believe, to begin with?

I have stumbled across a video... I implore anyone, whom takes this topic seriously, to watch it. It's kind of long, (25 minutes). However, the publication seems to broach points, for which I attempted to portray in this thread ~2 years ago...

As always, your thoughts and additions are greatly appreciated.

And now, the video **** (please disregard the title of the video)!!!! *****:

 
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cvanwey

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Request #3:

I would like to BUMP post #687. No one seems to want to touch it, thus far?

I would like to re-open this discussion, with another layer added...

As I stated, in the OP, If I received personal 'revelation' to the 'Holy Spirit', or 'God', or other, I might be arguing upon the theistic side, rather than from a skeptical position?

Furthermore, I have to ask, in earnest....

Does the entire topic of apologetics even matter???? -->(video to explain attached at the bottom)....

Or, is apologetics instead just a mental exercise to further defend your unwavering position, no matter what? Could any amount of "reason" change your current belief? Or, is reason not really the 'reason' you believe, to begin with?

I have stumbled across a video... I implore anyone, whom takes this topic seriously, to watch it. It's kind of long, (25 minutes). However, the publication seems to broach points, for which I attempted to portray in this thread ~2 years ago...

As always, your thoughts and additions are greatly appreciated.

And now, the video **** (please disregard the title of the video)!!!! *****:

 
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cvanwey

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@Andrewn , continuing from God and Sin , I have tried to condense my points, as well as polarize the ones I see as most relevant, regarding the reason(s) you believe. They will start as bullet points. Feel free to address any of them. As a precursor, I would just like to state I'm going to try and reduce the topics, as some will directly address why you believe what you believe:

And again, revelation is likely one of the the only reasons you believe, and lack in revelation is likely one of the only reasons I do not.


- In regards to the Bible authors, and the Gospels, it's important to ask where did these authors get their source(s), and how reliable are these source(s)?

- What way/ways can one validate if they were actually contacted from God?


- Seems you continue to represent Romans 1:18-22, as a viable and primary reason for belief. --- That we see how complex everything is, and must conclude God.

- Why do you continue to have faith in prayer, even when the Bible contradicts it's validity, as well as scientific discovery?
 
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cvanwey

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From post #352 (God and Sin)

I could address all these points. But it will again be futile. I would like to move this along, if you would agree and do not mind. I'm trying to move this discussion to a more appropriate category.

In the end, I do not see God at the end of this tunnel. Furthermore, I also find seemingly countless observations to suggest/demonstrate how the concept of the 'Christian God' is an illogical one.

HOWEVER, if God was to provide clear revelation to me, as He apparently has done for you, then as I stated in post #264, I might be attempting to somehow justify - (from your perspective side)?

Moving forward, I only see the following relevant categories:

1. The claimed veracity to Bible miracles
2. How to successfully verify contact from this God
3. Does God already provide enough data to conclude He exists logically?
4. Shouldn't earnest prayer be a viable means of receiving communication from God, as per the Bible?


Feel free to address some (or) all of them. Feel free to carry them over from the already addressed content, or, establish new ones.

Peace :)
 
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