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'Knowledge' of Existence

cvanwey

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Now we get to the crux of your question.

James 2:18 says:

"But someone will say, '“You have faith; I have deeds.
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.""
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

What is the author of James getting at here?

God could care less whether people believe he exists. He is not trying to prove that. He is inviting people from every walk of life to freely rule and reign with him. He wants people who are willing to be adopted into his family and share his inheritance. He is not interested in those who, like the demons, don't want anything to do with being adopted as sons and daughters. The ones who will say yes are invited by the HS.

Yes, it is a 'crux'. But you did not address it :(

You could be sighting a passage from the Qur'an, for all intensive purposes. If I doubt the original authenticity of such passages, it becomes meaningless for you to quote them. Just as me quoting a verse from the 'Book of Mormon' does for you :)

I 'wanted to be adopted' for decades, but saw no evidence forthcoming of God accepting my repeated requests.

So I pose to you the following as well.... Since we're providing scripture as evidence and proof...

Is God deliberately avoiding my requests, in direct defiance of Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23? Or, does god not actually exist?
 
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Uber Genius

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But if not, then maybe we need to address why you feel the 'moral argument' is so compelling, and necessary at all, in establishing Yahweh specifically, in any capacity.

Jumping into the middle of your conversation so I apologize if I misunderstand. The moral argument goes to a concept of God related to both Jews, Christians and Muslims. Nothing more narrow.

Morality is grounded in the nature of God so what the moral argument would show if true would be that God is the standard of justice, mercy, kindness, compassion, etc., that God had maximal amounts of these qualities, and that these standards would be true in every possible world.

But these details are secondary, at best, to the primary argument which argues simply that God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties. Ontology of morality doesn't really inform us about God's moral nature as much as God's moral commands do. So what can be inferred from the moral argument is that God is the standard and that morality originates in God's moral character.
 
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cvanwey

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Jumping into the middle of your conversation so I apologize if I misunderstand. The moral argument goes to a concept of God related to both Jews, Christians and Muslims. Nothing more narrow.

Morality is grounded in the nature of God so what the moral argument would show if true would be that God is the standard of justice, mercy, kindness, compassion, etc., that God had maximal amounts of these qualities, and that these standards would be true in every possible world.

The moral argument is circular, unfortunately.
 
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Uber Genius

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Yes, it is a 'crux'. But you did not address it :(

Strange comment.

You asked why doesn't God give me irrefutable evidence he exists?

I said he is not interested in that exercise. And cited a reason to believe that I am representing the Christian response. Which you then replied with a non-sequitur.

Is your "sad face" icon a symbol of lack of comprehension?

So to be clear, again...

GOD DOES NOT CARE ABOUT PROVING TO PEOPLE HE EXISTS!

You unwittingly gave the answer in your reference to
clear.png
clear.png
demons and freewill.

He is interested in drawing people that he knows will respond favorably to his invitation to rule and reign with him, as I said in my original post.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I simply read the Bible. Asked questions of various clergy at the time I decided to do so. If I had 'knowledge of existence', I would instead of just tried to reconcile their asserted conclusions, as they conflict with my 'known' discovery. Meaning, I would have tried to state that humans are flawed, and our conclusions about reality are altered from the 'truth'. However, since I'm not sure if this being is real, I instead am left no choice but to compare the statements made, against the apparent conflicting conclusions I see.

In conclusion, reading the Bible appears 'untrustworthy' on many points.
Perhaps you could disclose some of those 'known' discoveries that conflict?



I disagree.
Where exists a conclusion of 'supernatural', and where might I find such a reference outside of 'pseudoscience'?
So bottom line is that no matter what evidence is used in defending the Christian worldview you dismiss.

I hope you are not leading towards the ''watchmaker analogy'?.?.?.?
And if I were?




Fair point! I already acknowledged, many replies ago, we come from differing 'presuppositions' though :) Mine stems from lack of evidence for decades, yours is possibly the opposite.
Now wait, lack of evidence seems a bit misleading. There is evidence which you dismiss outright, so what you seem to mean is God making some appearance to you face to face?


I could state the very SAME thing of you, regarding 'justification' ;) But this actually kind of goes back to the OP. If I had 'knowledge of existence', like you, then I would be always looking for 'clues' and 'ques' to support my presupposition, like many theists do :) I gladly admit I would most likely do the same.
We know that God states HE has given evidence in the universe so that all actually know He exists. So if that evidence is dismissed out of hand, do you think God would be inclined to show Himself personally to you under those circumstances? I mean if God exists like I and others claim, do you think that He would?


But as it stands, I have had a severe lack in such evidence for decades. Thus, my conclusions quite differ. As doubt further creeps in, and rears it's ugly head, I have no choice but to try and remove emotional ties to anything I see as 'plausible intentional spiritual agency.' Sorry, this is me being bunt and honest with you. At this point, God would realize I now require a more concrete answer, to then enter His invited circle. Otherwise, it becomes very easy to dismiss many unanswered questions as simply unanswered questions, and not instead apply divine agency to the unknown without verification and conformation.
Ok, so you are content within your bubble of unanswered questions, fair enough. You can continue to use the LOL and misunderstand what that means, you can continue to live as if these questions don't affect you. That is your choice.




This is TMI at this point. I would love to deconstruct all of what you just said, but I could write volumes about 'morality'. And in fact, I have.... If you care to discuss morality, we could certainly defer to the appropriate topic.
A short summary of your position would suffice.

As for the appearance of design, 99.9% of the universe is inhabitable. 99+% of all animals are now extinct. (Analogy time) - Why would God create a large sheath of concrete, and when life pops up out of one of its tiny cracks, state, 'hey, look what I created, life'?
That the universe is inhabitable, did you know that if the universe was an smaller or larger we couldn't exist? Did you know that if earth was any smaller or larger we couldn't exist. Did you know that if the water didn't have the exact chemistry it does we couldn't exist? How do you know that the universe didn't have to be 99.9% inhabitable to make sure our planet existed just as it is for us to exist? Or perhaps God wanted us to be aware of how special our creation was to Him?

Does life exist on other planets? (rhetorical question- please don't answer - just demonstrating the kinks in the assertions made).
We don't know, but we do know what allowed for life to exist here.

Furthermore, you are 'overstepping' your boundaries to suggest that the Bible references much of anything else than 'creation', which is a blanket term used by other claimed competing holy texts.
That is simply false. Genesis has a sequence to existence that is very specific.

But again, I already acknowledge you feel Yahweh is real. So to get into all of this becomes superfluous. It's easy for you to conclude it all ties to your God ;)
LIke I said, if the universe didn't have a beginning (this universe when all space, energy, matter and time came into existence)it would not fit. If the universe was chaotic and had no order it would not fit. If there was no appearance of design in anything of the universe it wouldn't fit. So it is only easy to conclude due to what reality actually shows.




I think it is you whom missed my main point. The 'laws' of anything, and appealing to them as applied to a singular creator, is actually fallacious.
Explain point by point why it would be fallacious.

[QuoteWhat if the universe is eternal, and prior to the 'Big Bang' the universe was simply in a differing state? [/Quote]See above.

The laws may have greatly differed. What if it's later discovered we do indeed have a multiverse, and such laws differ in each? To then argue for consistent eternal laws would then be nonsense. To then assert a creator would also be a non sequitur. You could possibly argue for a 'change agent'. But the word 'creator' becomes irrelevant.
Any laws would be the same. The laws of logic would still apply. The laws of Physics would still apply, they would just be different. It doesn't change the need for something outside of our universe to eternally exist.

We don't know what we don't know. Applying the answer, which 'makes sense' to you, does not solve the question. There exists too many possibilities to consider, not just yours.
I haven't seen you provide anything?


Hence, all 'originating laws', (if not eternal), are yet to be known, and may never be known.
But we know that the LOL have to be eternal. We know by sheer logic that they exist in every possible world, at all times, whether we exist or not.




The same for opposing religions. All with their equally as valid anecdotal stories of contact from their respective claimed seen deities.
They all could be false, but they all can't be true. Truth is what we are after after all.
 
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Uber Genius

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The moral argument is circular, unfortunately.

Here was the video you posted, and then deleted after I posted the following refutation of same.


That is one of the funniest comments I have heard as many of the top atheist philosophers claim it (the moral argument) is the strongest theistic argument. Please defend your claim of circularity. The video is certainly didactic and filled with powerful rhetorical flourish.

Let's look at premise 2.

2. Objective moral values and duties exist.

The claim is that we are justified in believing (2) on the ground of our moral experience unless and until we have a defeater of that experience, just as we are justified in believing that there is a world of physical objects around us on the ground of our sense experience unless and until we have a defeater of that experience.

Our video guru has no small problem in his approach:

"PROVE IT."

"DON'T USE EXPERIENCE OR INTUITION."

Which is tantamount to saying, "Don't Prove the pythagorean theorem using a mathematical proof."

This is just an epistemic trick. Hopefully he has never had one undergrad philosophy class and is just ignorant.

We know since Descartes that all we can prove is that "I exist."

We can't PROVE:

- Other people exist
- a real external world exists
- the reality of the past

And yet our friendly ignorant videographer assumes those and hundreds of other things without question every day.

The source of his hypocrisy is that he is requiring a standard for everything in the world and a different standard for moral truths.

So we can properly believe that other people exist, a real external world exists, that CF exists, and youtube, and computers, and there is a real past DUE TO OUR EXPERIENCE AND THE LACK OF DEFEATERS OF SAME!

On circularity, "Objective morals and duties exist," is a theologically neutral claim held by theist and non-theists alike.

An angry and ignorant rant seems to be carrying the water for your video, rather than careful reasoning.
 
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cvanwey

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GOD DOES NOT CARE ABOUT PROVING TO PEOPLE HE EXISTS!

You know this because???

I think you missed my point... 'Joseph Smith wants you to (fill in the blank here)'......

How do (I) 'know' this? Because it's in the very book I'm reading to you ;)

So why don't you believe me?

Well, Because though you may acknowledge Joseph Smith may have existed as a human, he is NOT whom he states he is.

Now replace the word 'Joseph Smith' with 'Jesus' and recite the same sentence :)

Furthermore, you have neglected to answer my only question in red.
 
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cvanwey

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That is one of the funniest comments I have heard as many of the top atheist philosophers claim it is the strongest. Please defend your claim of circularity. The video is certainly didactic and filled with powerful rhetorical flourish.

Let's look at premise 2.

2. Objective moral values and duties exist.

The claim is that we are justified in believing (2) on the ground of our moral experience unless and until we have a defeater of that experience, just as we are justified in believing that there is a world of physical objects around us on the ground of our sense experience unless and until we have a defeater of that experience.

Our video guru has no small problem in his approach:

"PROVE IT."

"DON'T USE EXPERIENCE OR INTUITION."

This is just an epistemic trick. Hopefully he has never had one undergrad philosophy class and is just ignorant.

We know since Descartes that all we can prove is that "I exist."

We can't PROVE:

- Other people exist
- a real external world exists
- the reality of the past

And yet our friendly ignorant videographer assumes those and hundreds of other things without question every day.

The source of his hypocrisy is that he is requiring a standard for everything in the world and a different standard for moral truths.

So we can properly believe that other people exist, a real external world exists, that CF exists, and youtube, and computers, and there is a real past DUE TO OUR EXPERIENCE AND THE LACK OF DEFEATERS OF SAME!

On circularity, "Objective morals and duties exist," is a theologically neutral claim held by theist and non-theists alike.

An angry and ignorant rant seems to be carrying the water for your video, rather than careful reasoning.

Strange response...

I told you, in post #263, I do not wish to delve into 'morality'. I simply obliged, to facilitate your prior response. This is an entirely new topic, and will distract majorly from the OP. Sorry. I'm going to remove the video from post 263, so others do not chime in... :)
 
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Uber Genius

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You know this because???

I think you missed my point... 'Joseph Smith wants you to (fill in the blank here)'......

How do (I) 'know' this? Because it's in the very book I'm reading to you ;)

So why don't you believe me?

Well, Because though you may acknowledge Joseph Smith may have existed as a human, he is NOT whom he states he is.

Now replace the word 'Joseph Smith' with 'Jesus' and recite the same sentence :)

Furthermore, you have neglected to answer my only question in red.
This seems to continue to be a comprehension issue. I made a statement and backed it up with a reason. You seem to be playing a game which is circular.


Rules of the Skeptical Game:

To every explanation give the reply, "So what makes you believe that?"

Repeat ad infinitum!

So why do you believe you are not a brain in a vat?

Prove it!

BTW your skepticism approach destroys all knowledge, not just religious knowledge.

Science in not longer valid. Because we have good reason to be skeptical of an external world, and the reality of the past, both of which are necessary to science.

Even sense perceptions on skepticism can't be trusted.

Other people, prove that other people exist! Can't be done. Therefore who exactly is asking for proof that God exists?

Using your epistemology you have no way of proving to me you exist! So, "Who wants to know?" is my response to your Skeptical game.

See how inconsistent your application of knowledge is?
 
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Uber Genius

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Strange response...

I told you, in post #263, I do not wish to delve into 'morality'. I simply obliged, to facilitate your prior response. This is an entirely new topic, and will distract majorly from the OP. Sorry. I'm going to remove the video from post 263, so others do not chime in... :)
Remove it or don't.

You posted it as evidence against the moral argument being circular and I took the time to watch it and knocked it down.

So I didn't take us on this rabbit trail.

Leave it up. It will help discourage other skeptics from using it and it will inform them about properly basic beliefs and epistemic hypocrisy, all of which are valuable things to be aware of. In fact being the generous person I am I believe that the creator of that video was just ignorant of the subject rather than actually having knowledge of epistemology and trying to mislead his viewers intentionally.
 
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Uber Genius

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So help me understand, do you comprehend my claim that GOD DOESN'T CARE IF EVERYONE BELIEVES HE EXISTS?

If demons, and Satan have significantly more knowledge of God then any human, and yet it they didn't trust God or want any relationship with God, why think this is a knowledge project?

Since your anachronistic definition of faith (believing something for which there is no evidence) doesn't come into play in the Biblical discussions. Why not accurately represent faith instead as trust (which has nothing to do with gaining knowledge).

"Knowledge about God," is no way equates to "Trust in and commitment to God."

Once we correct the mistaken idea that launched this thread, we can properly assess the version of theism represented by the Bible as opposed to this strawman misrepresentation.
 
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cvanwey

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Perhaps you could disclose some of those 'known' discoveries that conflict?


Would it really matter? Open to practically any page, starting with Genesis. We would exchange for weeks and months, on this chapter alone, before we then went onto Exodus :) Too many topics to cover... And quite frankly, it still would not change my position; as I still have yet to obtain 'knowledge of existence.' Of course you can make it all fit, if you believe it. Look at the many sites which attempt to do it ;)


So bottom line is that no matter what evidence is used in defending the Christian worldview you dismiss.

God would know what evidence I require. God appears to have the ability to furnish as such. God would know if my 'heart' is genuine.

Now wait, lack of evidence seems a bit misleading. There is evidence which you dismiss outright, so what you seem to mean is God making some appearance to you face to face?

God would know what evidence I require. God appears to have the ability to furnish as such. God would know if my 'heart' is genuine.


We know that God states HE has given evidence in the universe so that all actually know He exists. So if that evidence is dismissed out of hand, do you think God would be inclined to show Himself personally to you under those circumstances? I mean if God exists like I and others claim, do you think that He would?

I don't know.... Ask my best friend's wife, whom was not raised to believe, and claimed she had a vision from God, and now believes and is a Sunday school teacher ;-) Prior to this, she invoked hardcore science and dismissed all claims and statements leading to 'creationism'.

Ok, so you are content within your bubble of unanswered questions, fair enough. You can continue to use the LOL and misunderstand what that means, you can continue to live as if these questions don't affect you. That is your choice.

The conclusions I draw are not a choice. Just like the conclusions you draw are not a choice.

That the universe is inhabitable, did you know that if the universe was an smaller or larger we couldn't exist? Did you know that if earth was any smaller or larger we couldn't exist. Did you know that if the water didn't have the exact chemistry it does we couldn't exist? How do you know that the universe didn't have to be 99.9% inhabitable to make sure our planet existed just as it is for us to exist? Or perhaps God wanted us to be aware of how special our creation was to Him?

Might I suggest watching the entire debate between William Lane Craig and Sean Carroll??????? Spoiler alert, the arguments are completely one sided. Just watch it for all the arguments you are presenting. It will be 2 hours well spent :)

That is simply false. Genesis has a sequence to existence that is very specific.

'Specific' and 'accurate' are not synonymous.

Any laws would be the same. The laws of logic would still apply. The laws of Physics would still apply, they would just be different. It doesn't change the need for something outside of our universe to eternally exist.

WLC vs Sean Carroll, check it out :)
 
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cvanwey

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Remove it or don't.

You posted it as evidence against the moral argument being circular and I took the time to watch it and knocked it down.

So I didn't take us on this rabbit trail.

Leave it up. It will help discourage other skeptics from using it and it will inform them about properly basic beliefs and epistemic hypocrisy, all of which are valuable things to be aware of. In fact being the generous person I am I believe that the creator of that video was just ignorant of the subject rather than actually having knowledge of epistemology and trying to mislead his viewers intentionally.

It is not a rabbit trail when I specifically stated I do not care to address it in the very thread I provided it. I was simply showing why I reject it, without just saying (no to you). I was simply providing a 'courtesy response'. Furthermore, I had already mentioned prior response, involving 'TMI', and outside the scope with the other poster, in which you then decided to hijack ;-)

BTW, I sincerely doubt any argument for 'objective morals' would be convincing for any skeptic, atheist, other. Sorry. So don't waste your time.
 
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cvanwey

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So help me understand, do you comprehend my claim that GOD DOESN'T CARE IF EVERYONE BELIEVES HE EXISTS?

"Comprehend', in the sense that is the assertion you are making, yes. Have you actually comprehended any of my replies? Doesn't seem so.

If demons, and Satan have significantly more knowledge of God then any human, and yet it they didn't trust God or want any relationship with God, why think this is a knowledge project?

Because the ones whom wrote such stories were humans, and humans alone. No different than the human authors of the Iliad. Without 'knowledge of existence' to such asserted claims of 'supernature', I'm simply reading a book of tales, like you would assess, by reading the Book of Mormon or the Iliad respectively.

Since your anachronistic definition of faith (believing something for which there is no evidence) doesn't come into play in the Biblical discussions. Why not accurately represent faith instead as trust (which has nothing to do with gaining knowledge).

You are late to the party, so let me catch you up...

If you think this entity exists, then you will read the Bible and make it all fit.

If you do not think this entity exists, you will read the Bible and immediately dismiss all supernatural claimed indications as 'fairy tales and lore'.

Now can you address the question in
red? It's been a few responses now....
 
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Oncedeceived

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Would it really matter? Open to practically any page, starting with Genesis. We would exchange for weeks and months, on this chapter alone, before we then went onto Exodus :) Too many topics to cover... And quite frankly, it still would not change my position; as I still have yet to obtain 'knowledge of existence.' Of course you can make it all fit, if you believe it. Look at the many sites which attempt to do it ;)
I agree, it won't change your position.



God would know what evidence I require. God appears to have the ability to furnish as such. God would know if my 'heart' is genuine.
Yes, He would know if you are genuine. I find it doubtful according to this thread but only God knows.



I don't know.... Ask my best friend's wife, whom was not raised to believe, and claimed she had a vision from God, and now believes and is a Sunday school teacher ;-) Prior to this, she invoked hardcore science and dismissed all claims and statements leading to 'creationism'.
It happens.




The conclusions I draw are not a choice. Just like the conclusions you draw are not a choice.
I disagree, I think there is a choice.



Might I suggest watching the entire debate between William Lane Craig and Sean Carroll??????? Spoiler alert, the arguments are completely one sided. Just watch it for all the arguments you are presenting. It will be 2 hours well spent :)
I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. What actual proof do you feel Carroll provided?




'Specific' and 'accurate' are not synonymous.
Did you forget your claim? You said it was pretty much generic and that all holy books were the same and just stated 'creation' without anything specific.



WLC vs Sean Carroll, check it out :)
I've reviewed bits and pieces.
 
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cvanwey

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I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. What actual proof do you feel Carroll provided?


I mentioned this debate specifically, because it seems to fall in line with the many assertions you are making. I honestly would rather not say too much, if you should decide to later watch it. I would rather you just watch it, with as little expectation as possible. I don't want to hype it up. I just feel it is quite relevant to the direct observations you bring forth.

Again, only a polite suggestion. It may serve no purpose, it may make you re-think your conclusions, or other. This video did pop to mind, and resonated as very much in line with your mode of thinking and conclusions.

No worries if you don't, of course.
 
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Chriliman

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God would know what evidence I require.

Honestly, the fact that you know this shows you know the character of God, you know who God is.

Even if you merely imagine the perfect characteristics of God, the perfect way of being, it exists at least in your imagination.

If someone acts out Galatians 5:22-23, then God(the perfect way of being) is manifest through them to others. Only a fool is capable of denying this.

If you have any correct understanding of what I've said, please don't harden your heart. Rather, continue seeking truth and understanding in a loving way.
 
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Sanoy

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I've reviewed bits and pieces.
I have watched the entire thing. The idea that it was one sided was a subjective experience. It was very long, very technical, and consisted of more presenters than just WLC. It's ridiculous to ask someone to watch the whole thing rather than pull out the relevant bits. I think most people aren't going to be able to follow that debate due to all the technical terms and references, which is probably why the points are not being drawn out for us in this thread. The major theme of it is Carroll defending his cosmological toy model. It's a good debate though. I felt what the presenters had to say before WLC was the most interesting.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I have watched the entire thing. The idea that it was one sided was a subjective experience. It was very long, very technical, and consisted of more presenters than just WLC. It's ridiculous to ask someone to watch the whole thing rather than pull out the relevant bits. I think most people aren't going to be able to follow that debate due to all the technical terms and references, which is probably why the points are not being drawn out for us in this thread. The major theme of it is Carroll defending his cosmological toy model. It's a good debate though. I felt what the presenters had to say before WLC was the most interesting.
I've read tidbits of it. Carroll is a very exciting speaker and of course is very well educated in his field, on the other hand William Lane Craig is not educated in that field and from what I have read that was the big difference. Carroll although one that doesn't dismiss philosophy outright didn't seem to refute that aspect of the debate. But I haven't watched the debate itself so I can't say for sure. I just don't know if I will have time to actually do that.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I mentioned this debate specifically, because it seems to fall in line with the many assertions you are making. I honestly would rather not say too much, if you should decide to later watch it. I would rather you just watch it, with as little expectation as possible. I don't want to hype it up. I just feel it is quite relevant to the direct observations you bring forth.

Again, only a polite suggestion. It may serve no purpose, it may make you re-think your conclusions, or other. This video did pop to mind, and resonated as very much in line with your mode of thinking and conclusions.

No worries if you don't, of course.
I just don't think I'll be able to find the time in the near future.
 
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