Kneeling during the National Anthem

[Allie Short]

Keep in mind that a lot of flag code ISN’T followed anyway! Flags are not supposed to be worn, used in advertising, as part of costumes, on things you’ll throw away (napkins, tissues, etc), or held horizontally. Is it right to criticize those who kneel when pretty much the whole country ‘disrespects’ the flag anyway? Not judging your views, just curious!

 

[High Fidelity]

I think it is being blown out of proportion and the flag and anthem have become idols to a huge amount of people.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I don't view the flag and anthem as being about soldiers, sacrifice, and the military. I view them as being about "country." Let's face it; there are lots of things wrong with this country, despite all the rhetoric about it being the greatest country in the world and making America great again. Perhaps those that take a knee in protest of this country's practices are the more honest among us.

We annihilated an indigenous people to claim this land. We stole people from their homes and separated them from their families to enslave and exploit them as free labor. We have more shooting deaths per capita than any other civilized country. We imprison more of our citizens than any other civilized country. We are the only civilized country without universal health care. We are the only nation on earth ever to drop nuclear bombs. We have a larger defense budget than any other country, and war has become one of our biggest exports. We continue subtle and not-so-subtle racism toward non-whites. We deny climate change. Our political system is corrupt with votes bought and sold by lobbyists and campaign contributions -- the best government money can buy. So, I don't get upset if someone doesn't want to sign up for Rah Rah patriotism. They are calling attention to America's social ills, as is their right in a free society.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I don't view the flag and anthem as being about soldiers, sacrifice, and the military. I view them as being about "country." Let's face it; there are lots of things wrong with this country, despite all the rhetoric about it being the greatest country in the world and making America great again. Perhaps those that take a knee in protest of this country's practices are the more honest among us.

We annihilated an indigenous people to claim this land. We stole people from their homes and separated them from their families to enslave and exploit them as free labor. We have more shooting deaths per capita than any other civilized country. We imprison more of our citizens than any other civilized country. We are the only civilized country without universal health care. We are the only nation on earth ever to drop nuclear bombs. We have a larger defense budget than any other country, and war has become one of our biggest exports. We continue subtle and not-so-subtle racism toward non-whites. We deny climate change. Our political system is corrupt with votes bought and sold by lobbyists and campaign contributions -- the best government money can buy. So, I don't get upset if someone doesn't want to sign up for Rah Rah patriotism. They are calling attention to America's social ills, as is their right in a free society.

I couldn't agree more. In my personal opinion, the American flag doesn't deserve any more respect than the nation it represents. I don't believe that flag deserves to be revered and exalted like some holy relic either. I could say more, but I'll wait until later. Anyway, I think your post is really good.

 

[High Fidelity]

I couldn't agree more. In my personal opinion, the American flag doesn't deserve any more respect than the nation it represents. I don't believe that flag deserves to be revered and exalted like some holy relic either. I could say more, but I'll wait until later. Anyway, I think your post is really good.

Right, and if it does represent the country, it represents the negative sides of it, too.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Keep in mind that a lot of flag code ISN’T followed anyway! Flags are not supposed to be worn, used in advertising, as part of costumes, on things you’ll throw away (napkins, tissues, etc), or held horizontally. Is it right to criticize those who kneel when pretty much the whole country ‘disrespects’ the flag anyway? Not judging your views, just curious!

(1) I can't figure out exactly why people are kneeling, linking arms, staying in locker rooms, or what-have-you. Not entire sure what message is attempted to be communicated. Are they aginst police? For "unity"/against "disunity" (whatever that means)? Who can really be sure - it's borderline just incoherent.
(2) I don't understand why people care so much about the behavior of a bunch of entertainers. I don't care what they do and don't take social or political cues from any such person. They play football for a living.....who cares what they think or do. And who would accept a political lecture form said person?
(3) I think the flag is simply a symbol of the nation as a whole (not to be confused with a "holy relic" as someone here aid). Publicly not-standing when it's customary to stand, is being disrespectful. The flag doesn't represent police behavior or some generalized social condition of subgroups, but it represents the Declaration of Independence and Constitution - the nation. Kneeling says to me that those things are being disrespected.
(4) If "pretty much the whole country" disrespects the flag, then why think those kneeling are sending a message? If what they're doing isn;t really abnormal, maybe they arne't really sending any message? (of course, by being publicly controversial, they seem to think most people generally respect the flag).

I don't get bent out of shape over it though.....football players making political showmanship aren't on my list of people to listen to for political advice. By the same token, I wouldn't listen to politicians, lawyers, or economists give public statements about football stuff, but I wouldn't get bent out of shape if they did.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I think it is being blown out of proportion and the flag and anthem have become idols to a huge amount of people.

The football players themselves are actually idolized which represent far less than the other, while grown men buy these overpaid dudes shirts with their idolized player's name and number on the back of it. Sorta of weird now that I think about it.

I hope they inform the fighter jets that show up at their games on behalf of the same not to bother wasting all that gas.

 

[Hank77]

(1) I can't figure out exactly why people are kneeling, linking arms, staying in locker rooms, or what-have-you. Not entire sure what message is attempted to be communicated. Are they aginst police? For "unity"/against "disunity" (whatever that means)? Who can really be sure - it's borderline just incoherent.
(2) I don't understand why people care so much about the behavior of a bunch of entertainers. I don't care what they do and don't take social or political cues from any such person. They play football for a living.....who cares what they think or do. And who would accept a political lecture form said person?
(3) I think the flag is simply a symbol of the nation as a whole (not to be confused with a "holy relic" as someone here aid). Publicly not-standing when it's customary to stand, is being disrespectful. The flag doesn't represent police behavior or some generalized social condition of subgroups, but it represents the Declaration of Independence and Constitution - the nation. Kneeling says to me that those things are being disrespected.
(4) If "pretty much the whole country" disrespects the flag, then why think those kneeling are sending a message? If what they're doing isn;t really abnormal, maybe they arne't really sending any message? (of course, by being publicly controversial, they seem to think most people generally respect the flag).

I don't get bent out of shape over it though.....football players making political showmanship aren't on my list of people to listen to for political advice. By the same token, I wouldn't listen to politicians, lawyers, or economists give public statements about football stuff, but I wouldn't get bent out of shape if they did.

And you are perfectly within your rights to state your opinion, listen to whomever you choose to, and only see the things you wish to see.

 

[Hank77]

The football players themselves are actually idolized which represent far less than the other, while grown men buy these overpaid dudes shirts with their idolized player's name and number on the back of it. Sorta of weird now that I think about it.

I hope they inform the fighter jets that show up at their games on behalf of the same not to bother wasting all that gas.

The fighter jets don't show up for the benefit of the NFL.

 

[Fireinfolding]

The fighter jets don't show up for the benefit of the NFL.

I would think it is a mixture of things, for example John Chesire wrote (on Quora.com) that "football games are entertainment for the masses. They are a spectacle rife with pomp and pageantry. A flyover of a flight of military fighters fits in with the very nature of the entire event."

• For the military, a flyover promotes that service and allows ordinary citizens to see their military in a way that it is not normally possible. Moreover these flyovers give a boost to their recruiting efforts.
• For the fans, flyovers provide an exciting, feel-good moment, especially at the climax of the playing/singing of our National Anthem.
• For the players, it provides an invigorating and uplifting moment to start the sporting event, similar to a coach’s pep talk.
• For the league, it adds to its reputation, appeal, and to future gate receipts.
• For the pilots, in addition to being an enjoyable mission, it provides training in formation flight, and especially training in the difficult and demanding coordination and timing to do it exactly right, looking good and on time.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Keep in mind that a lot of flag code ISN’T followed anyway! Flags are not supposed to be worn, used in advertising, as part of costumes, on things you’ll throw away (napkins, tissues, etc), or held horizontally. Is it right to criticize those who kneel when pretty much the whole country ‘disrespects’ the flag anyway? Not judging your views, just curious!

Do you mean violating the flag code like this?

I wonder if this picture upsets the same people who are all bent of shape that some NFL players knelt during the national anthem rather than stood for it, supposedly disrespecting the American flag.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Seth Rich, murdered DNC staffer

 

[Hank77]

I would think it is a mixture of things, for example John Chesire wrote (on Quora.com) that "football games are entertainment for the masses. They are a spectacle rife with pomp and pageantry. A flyover of a flight of military fighters fits in with the very nature of the entire event."

• For the military, a flyover promotes that service and allows ordinary citizens to see their military in a way that it is not normally possible. Moreover these flyovers give a boost to their recruiting efforts.
• For the fans, flyovers provide an exciting, feel-good moment, especially at the climax of the playing/singing of our National Anthem.
• For the players, it provides an invigorating and uplifting moment to start the sporting event, similar to a coach’s pep talk.
• For the league, it adds to its reputation, appeal, and to future gate receipts.
• For the pilots, in addition to being an enjoyable mission, it provides training in formation flight, and especially training in the difficult and demanding coordination and timing to do it exactly right, looking good and on time.

Do the ticket sales increase for football games when it's announced there will be a fly over?

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I think it is being blown out of proportion and the flag and anthem have become idols to a huge amount of people.

As I said before in another thread on the same subject, it's truly perplexing to me just how so many American Christians hold to that flag as if it was some divine gift from God Himself that was brought down from Mount Sinai like the Ten Commandments. And as I've said before, as far as I'm aware, the American flag doesn't qualify as a holy relic and it shouldn't be treated and exalted as such.

Right, and if it does represent the country, it represents the negative sides of it, too.

And it does, in my opinion.

 

[Hank77]

Like I've said before in another thread on the same subject, it's truly perplexing to me just how so many American Christians hold to that flag as if was some divine gift from God Almighty Himself that was brought down from Mount Sinai like the Ten Commandments. And as I've said before, as far as I am aware, the American flag doesn't qualify as a holy relic and it shouldn't be treated as such.

Sometimes I've read such poorly constructed comments that I wondered if the commenter, not so much in this forum as other places, knew how many stripes are on the flag and what they stand for.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Do the ticket sales increase for football games when it's announced there will be a fly over?

Couldnt tell you, why?

 

[Hank77]

Couldnt tell you, why?

That is the only way it would be of benefit to the teams or the NFL.

 

[Fireinfolding]

That is the only way it would be of benefit to the teams or the NFL.

So have you found out whether it helps the NFL to have those flyovers?
Or even if taking a knee at the anthem is hitting the money they might serve?

 

[High Fidelity]

I hope they inform the fighter jets that show up at their games on behalf of the same not to bother wasting all that gas.

Why? It's all in the name of nationalistic displays of patriotism anyway.

You know it's only recently that players even came out on the field for the anthem, right? This isn't some age-old tradition ingrained in a people from the inception of the nation like freedom of speech and expression; ironically the same two things being attacked by those in opposition to the players exercising their constitutionally-protected rights.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Why? It's all in the name of nationalistic displays of patriotism anyway.

You know it's only recently that players even came out on the field for the anthem, right? This isn't some age-old tradition ingrained in a people from the inception of the nation like freedom of speech and expression; ironically the same two things being attacked by those in opposition to the players exercising their constitutionally-protected rights.

I would just say."why bother?" Why not do it over something that could appreciate it more.

Im not a football fan, and I dont really get all the pomp of it or idolizing these guys