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KJV Only?

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tall73

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It's true I don't have a lot of patience for nuanced arguments. The Truth is simple, not nuanced. God's hand brought is the King James Bible, that is obvious. it's His Word for the English speaking world, translated from the compiled manuscripts with all former translations dilegently compared. The same Holy Ghost who "scholars" claim makes them better than those editors for determining what God said guided those men under the authority of the King of England to make THE translation of the English Bible which will never be surpassed because "the scriptures cannot be broken" ( from the mouth of Jesus Christ in John 10:35). "Nuances" of manuscripts or other translations could not keep God from giving His Word in English any more than all the terrorisms of Catholicism could keep the world in the dark ages by claiming a monopoly on interpreting God's Word through the Pope.

Is English the only language that God preserved His word in? If not, then the other texts, in other languages, that He has used to preserve His word should read the same, correct?
 
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PrincetonGuy

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It's sad that Christians, even some godly ones who do not err in doctrine other than to ignore what the Bible says about God's promise to keep His Word recorded forever and preserved though at times through history mainly hidden and buried.....

The Bible NEVER said anything about God making a “promise to keep His Word recorded forever and preserved though at times through history mainly hidden and buried.....” Is it not a sin to lie about God?

How people fail to see their arrogance of intellectual pride when they say they are translating the Word of God and getting closer to the originals and they can tell ME all about what the Word of God was meant to say and I"m supposed to appreciate their intellectual insight?

Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.

Please, give me a break. I can read English and God gave me His Word in English without error so I can know Him as He is as He wants me to know Him.

God did not give anyone His Word in English without error.

People who dismiss the fact that all modern versions are based on corrupt altered and edited manuscripts with changes inserted or things taken out by ungodly men like Wescott and Hort and ungodly women like the woman who left off the natural use of the man burning in her lust toward other women and then got paid for claiming to be putting the Word of God into "better" English known as the NIV which makes so many docrinal changes in key passages and changes so many things the I hesitate to list them because the list is tooooo long.

Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.

Sad that so many Christians today have bought into the lie that they themselves are the personal tranlsators of God for themselves (and a lot of them think the Holy Ghost wants them to share their renderings with everybody else to be admired as masters of the Word of God instead of being mastered by the Word of God.... rather than believing God has spoken clearly and what He said never changed and He was fully able to and has given us His Word in the King James Bible.

Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.

Vote King James Bible only. All modern versions belong in the garbage if you can't burn them.

Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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The bearing of John 16:13 upon the translation and preservation process
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).
God has promised to guide His people into all truth. "All" here does not mean "basically," "generally," "almost," "nearly," "relatively." It must surely mean ALL!
"Truth" is defined in the next chapter of John as referring to the Bible. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (Jn. 17:17).
Through the priesthood of believers, God guided His people into all truth as to the canon of Scripture, e.g. which books were and were not inspired. He also guided them into all truth as to the text of Scripture (which were and were not the correct readings). And in order to make this relevant and practical He must also guide them into all truth concerning the translation of Scripture.
Three important things can be seen in John 16:13:
(1) The Guide--"the Spirit of Truth"
(2) The Journey--"will guide you"
(3) The Arrival--"into all truth"
The history of how our Bible came down to us after its' inspiration in the original autographs is to be found under these three points. These must be considered in the history of every Bible of every language.
The Guide
The same Holy Spirit of Truth who verbally inspired the Word in the autographs is committed also to its verbal preservation in the textual, transmissional, and translation process.
The Journey
The statement "will guide you" indicates that a process is in view.
In the history of a given Bible where God was actively guiding there will be at least three key periods:
(1) The Manuscript Period
(2) The Early Printed Edition Period
(3) The Period of an Authoritative Standard Edition
In each of these periods God's Word will be current and available to His people. "But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart that thou mayest do it" (Deut. 30:14).
In the first two periods God's Word may not have been available from the same written source. Relatively minor variations existed in the hand copied manuscripts of the Received Text tradition. The early printed Greek texts of Erasmus, Stephanus, and Beza had some variation, as did the early printed English versions. Yet, God's promise of guiding into all truth could still be counted on, and through the comparing of several sources He would put upon the heart of his people which of the variants was the true reading.
For example, Wycliffe's Bible was based on the Latin Vulgate and was therefore flawed. Yet it could be clarified with the Celtic, Waldensian, and Old Latin translations which had a Received Text tradition.
This same general principle could hold even today in those remote and primitive areas where only a preliminary translation is available. The earnest seeker of truth can know what a true reading is, for God has promised to "guide into all truth." There is, however, the disadvantage today that many missionary Bibles are based on the Alexandrian text.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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the "Bible", "biblios", means THE book; not A book. There is ONE Bible in English, not many varying translations. There can only be one Word of God. When a book which claims to be the Bible has doctinal changes of words and passages, deletions, and additions which make it contradictory to the Word of God, it cannot be the Word of God and anybody who fears God should destroy that garbage in the trash if not burn it. Burning it is better since it's laced with doctrines of demons from Hell to cast doubt on God's Word.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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,,,,,, WHY ALL SHOULD VOTE kJV ONLY IN THIS POLL,,,,,,,

LESSON ONE : Basic simple common sense logic and the written Word of God supporting preservation of scripture and accurate translation of preserved scripture into our native tongue.

One hundred years ago, John Burgon wrote:
If you and I believe that the original writings of the Scriptures were verbally inspired,
by God, then of necessity they must have been providentialy preserved through the ages.
This is the crux of the matter; does God preserve that Word which He originally inspired? And if so, to what extent? Is it merely the concepts and basic message that is kept intact, or does preservation, as inspiration, extend to the words themselves?

John Burgon presumed, without any evidence of any kind, that God providentially and perfectly preserved the Scriptures in the form of the King James Translation of the Bible. That this was an incorrect presumption has already been proven in this thread.

That the Bible declares both the fact and extent of its preservation is made abundantly clear in the following:

Know now that there shall fall unto the earth nothing of the word of the LORD..2 Kings 10:10

This partial quote of 2 Kings 10:10 in the KJV is a willful and deliberate attempt to deceive one’s readers. The verse actually says, in the KJV,

2 Kings 10:10 Know now that there shall fall unto the earth nothing of the word of the Lord, which the Lord spake concerning the house of Ahab: for the Lord hath done that which he spake by his servant Elijah.

This verse says absolutely nothing about the Bible and the preservation of it.

,,,,,, The words of the LORD are pure words, as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever...Ps 12:6,7

Psalm 12:1. Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
2. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
3. The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4. Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
5. For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
6. The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted. (KJV)

In vv. 3-4, the LORD promises to “cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things….” In v. 5, the LORD promises to arise for the poor and needy, and to set them in safety. In v. 6, the truth and reliability of the promise is guaranteed by the fact that the “words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.” In verse 7, the LORD promises to preserve the poor and needy from the perverse generation described in vv. 3-4.” This verse says absolutely nothing about the Bible and the preservation of it.

,,,,,, The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.. Ps... 19:7.

"The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations...Ps.. 33:11

For the LORD is good, his mercy is everlasting, and his truth endureth to all generations Psalm 100:5

For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven...Psalm 119:89

Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it" Psalm 119:40.....

Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever ...Psalm 119:152..

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.....Psalm 119:160...

Every word of God is pure...Proverbs 30:5

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever Isa ...40:8...
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it...Is 55:11...

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled....Matther5:18

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away...Mt 24:35....


And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail..Luke 16:17...

The scripture cannot be broken...John 10:35....

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" .....First Peter 1:23

But the word of the Lord endureth for ever...1 Pet. 1:25...

These verses say absolutely nothing about the Bible and the preservation of it—let alone a translation of it into English! Indeed, the concept of a bound volume called the “Bible” did not yet even exist.

,,,,,, We have a strange anomaly today; Christians claim to believe what the Bible says about it's own inspiration, but virtually ignore the equally direct statements concerning preservation.

As we have seen, there are no direct or even indirect statements concerning the preservation of a concept that did not yet even exist.

,,,,,, To say that you believe in the full inspiration of Scripture while at the same time accepting the textual theories inherent in modern versions is about as incongruous as taking Genisis one literally while holding to the theories of Darwin.

Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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The bearing of John 16:13 upon the translation and preservation process
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13).
God has promised to guide His people into all truth. "All" here does not mean "basically," "generally," "almost," "nearly," "relatively." It must surely mean ALL!
"Truth" is defined in the next chapter of John as referring to the Bible. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (Jn. 17:17).
Through the priesthood of believers, God guided His people into all truth as to the canon of Scripture, e.g. which books were and were not inspired. He also guided them into all truth as to the text of Scripture (which were and were not the correct readings). And in order to make this relevant and practical He must also guide them into all truth concerning the translation of Scripture.
Three important things can be seen in John 16:13:
(1) The Guide--"the Spirit of Truth"
(2) The Journey--"will guide you"
(3) The Arrival--"into all truth"
The history of how our Bible came down to us after its' inspiration in the original autographs is to be found under these three points. These must be considered in the history of every Bible of every language.
The Guide
The same Holy Spirit of Truth who verbally inspired the Word in the autographs is committed also to its verbal preservation in the textual, transmissional, and translation process.
The Journey
The statement "will guide you" indicates that a process is in view.
In the history of a given Bible where God was actively guiding there will be at least three key periods:
(1) The Manuscript Period
(2) The Early Printed Edition Period
(3) The Period of an Authoritative Standard Edition
In each of these periods God's Word will be current and available to His people. "But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart that thou mayest do it" (Deut. 30:14).
In the first two periods God's Word may not have been available from the same written source. Relatively minor variations existed in the hand copied manuscripts of the Received Text tradition. The early printed Greek texts of Erasmus, Stephanus, and Beza had some variation, as did the early printed English versions. Yet, God's promise of guiding into all truth could still be counted on, and through the comparing of several sources He would put upon the heart of his people which of the variants was the true reading.
For example, Wycliffe's Bible was based on the Latin Vulgate and was therefore flawed. Yet it could be clarified with the Celtic, Waldensian, and Old Latin translations which had a Received Text tradition.
This same general principle could hold even today in those remote and primitive areas where only a preliminary translation is available. The earnest seeker of truth can know what a true reading is, for God has promised to "guide into all truth." There is, however, the disadvantage today that many missionary Bibles are based on the Alexandrian text.

The fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread. Therefore, none of this is relevant.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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the "Bible", "biblios", means THE book; not A book. There is ONE Bible in English, not many varying translations. There can only be one Word of God. When a book which claims to be the Bible has doctinal changes of words and passages, deletions, and additions which make it contradictory to the Word of God, it cannot be the Word of God and anybody who fears God should destroy that garbage in the trash if not burn it. Burning it is better since it's laced with doctrines of demons from Hell to cast doubt on God's Word.

The fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread. Therefore, none of this is relevant.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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This was a post of mine covering some of the history of Teztual Criticism:

Problems with translations other that the King James Translation and their textual basis are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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There can only be one version, verbatim, word for word unchangeable of the Word of God in English or there is NO Word of God in English. If you go making a New English Translation (and I believe their is a modern version by that title), then you are saying the Word of God is uncertain and subject to your own preference of choice of words.

When any document in a donor language is translated into a receptor language, the translator must make choices based upon his knowledge of the donor language, the time and cultural background of the original document, the receptor language, and the cultural background and education of the targeted readership. The individual translators of the KJV made different and conflicting choices when translating identical words and phrases based upon their individual knowledge of the donor languages and their individual knowledge of the receptor language, etc.

The King James Bible replaced all former versions and has never been replaced and never will be. It is the Word of God in English.

Several English translations of the Bible made previous to the KJV are still in use today. The KJV has already been replaced as the most commonly used English translation, and it will continue to be replaced as the language in the KJV becomes more and more unreadable due to English being a rapidly changing language.

The King James Bible was commissioned by King James to once and for all make translation of the highest standard by the best scholars who could be assembled for the task.

Not True!
 
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PrincetonGuy

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The KJV is based on the MT, the TR, along with other Bibles. This is one of the truths that modern scholarship fails to acknowledge. They say it is built "only" on Erasmus' TR; the evidence clearly shows otherwise,
Jack

Not true! Modern scholarship acknowledges that the KJV is based on the MT, the TR, along with other Bibles.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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It's obvious how the church (not the Catholic church, neither Roman or Greek) has been weakened in influes and society has become increasinly ungodly and immoral as modern versions were pawned of as the Word of God. The Great Awakening in the early 1900's reversed the trend briefly, and I believe only another Great Awakening, a real Holy Ghost King James Bbile revival, will be enough to overturn the ungodly trends which are going to bring God's judgement. Enough babies have been killed by abortion in America to equal the current population of 25 states, and now Sodomy is being legalized and the Bible being outlawed as hate speech if you agree with what God says against sin (the NIV, with one of it's editors being a known lesbian with equal authority and influence as all of the other NIV editors, made sure to insert key changes to soften the Bible's clear strong position against homosexuality, and look how many Chritians love the NIV today).

Christians have compromised and let ungodly forces take over, and modern translations which are fraudulent versions of the Word of God have played a huge role in that compromise, if they were not the strongest tool of the enemy for weakening the church. Modern versions certainly played a huge role in dividing the churches and allowing ungodly forces to dominate the leader of the free world which God raised up to spread the gospel around the world through thousands of missionaries being supported by godly people in the nation he raised to spread His Word around the world in these last days.

Problems with translations other that the King James Translation and their textual basis are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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Fortunately for me, both history and the facts are in support of the King James. I have learned over the years to be patient and clear with the facts.

Jack

Why is it that none of the history and facts supporting the supremacy and perfection of the KJV has been published? In the many years that I have been studying the KJV, all that I have seen in support of such beliefs is gibberish—most of which is willful and deliberate distortions of the truth.
 
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PrincetonGuy

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This whole argument is nothing but faith vs pride. Either God kept His Word and we have it in English or we do not.

No, this whole argument is nothing but truth versus lies. God NEVER promised to perfectly preserve His word in the form of a perfect Bible—in English or in any other language.
 
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tall73

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It's sad that Christians, even some godly ones who do not err in doctrine other than to ignore what the Bible says about God's promise to keep His Word recorded forever and preserved though at times through history mainly hidden and buried.....

If you are going to stress that at times it was mainly hidden and buried, then you are undercutting the argument for the majority text, and the text of the KJV, in the first place.

The argument largely brought against the Alexandrian text is that it was largely hidden and buried at times through history, while the majority text was the one that most of the manuscripts reflect.

But if the true word of God can be hidden for much of the time, this again leaves the door open for the Alexandrian school.

So if God preserves His word, doesn't He preserve it for His church, and shouldn't it be available to many Christians, at many times, not just in English starting in the 1600's?
 
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Boidae

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I wonder what SaintJoeNow would tell someone who cannot read the King James Bible because of cognitive decline, but does well with other versions because they are in our current vernacular?

I will take one possible answer out of the equation. Please do not say that the KJV is at a fifth grade level, so anyone educated beyond the fifth grade can read it. I'm sorry, but that is not always the case.

BTW, my favorite version is the ESV of which I now have a Lutheran Study Bible and The Apocrypha with Lutheran study notes, also ESV.

My wife, who is who I was speaking about above, her favorite version is the 1984 NIV as she has no issues reading it.
 
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Agreed.

However, the majority text is not monolithic. And while there is generally stronger agreement between the various manuscripts in the Byzantine than there would be manuscripts in the Western (for those who hold to it) or the Caesarean (for those who hold to it) or the Alexandrian, there are still readings within the majority text that are themselves minority readings.

the KJV has several passages which retain minority readings. While the manuscripts are late and generally from the majority text type, some of the readings are not majority readings at all and do not therefore represent the Greek Scriptures that folks had been using the most.

There are a number of examples that we could cite. For ease of argument at this point let's simply use I John 5:7. I have read your thread regarding it, and other literature regarding it. I have a copy of Metzgers textual commentary as well which I have read on the point. Since we have a pretty good idea of what textual witnesses include it, this is the most convenient to refer to.

So here is the simple point. The comma is NOT a majority reading. Please note, I am not here arguing whether it belongs in the Scriptures or not. For the purpose of this conversation that is a separate point, and there are arguments for both sides. Whatever position you come to on the point, the verse is not a majority reading.
For now I will simply quote your own post from the earlier conversation:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7766479-4/#post64096505
Let us for the moment include the 10 other unconfirmed MSS that could contain the verse. So far we are looking at around 21 or so manuscripts it would appear that include the verse. Some of these only include it in the margin.
Earlier in the discussion you said the following in response to the assertions of Doug Kutilek
The reason for quoting these two excerpts from the previous conversation is to note that you agree with the statement that there are around 300 MSS known to preserve I John.
It also establishes that at best, as we know it now anyway, only 21 of those 300 preserve the reading of the comma, and some of those only in the margin.
That would by default then be a minority reading.
So now to the point I was making. The majority text as a whole was the text used predominantly by the church over the centuries. As such, I would consider it God's word to those churches, still preserved in the Greek language.
Yet the majority of these disagree with the underlying text for the KJV, and the English translation of the KJV, in that they do not have the comma.
So again the question, how can both be God's word? Or do you assert that the KJV is God's word, but that the majority of the Majority text are not? If so, then preservation seems quite different than what we might think.
Tall, I appreciate you taking the time to read all the material that you have. I believe however, that your understanding of the “Families” of “textual types” is wanting (at least to a certain point), which causes this question. Kurt and Barbara Aland entered this arena with the presupposition that God had not preserved His words, irregardless of the fact that God states plainly throughout the scriptures the fact that His words would endure forever. Hence, while God chose NOT to preserve His words in a monolithic text, He did still preserve His words. I believe (as do others of my like precious faith) God used people who treasured His words as the greatest treasure left on Earth by God, to be the ones who would through His provision, keep His words pure. With that being said, understand that this is not a situation where the greatest witness of authenticity is NOT the number of witnesses, nor the antiquity of the said MSS. The greatest witness is the text that fulfills three key principles.
1) The soundness of pure doctrine: God never contradicts Himself, therefore, any text (while still maintaining the context of scripture), that causes a contradiction in the scripture, is obviously not the original reading of that text.
2) The antiquity of the text: is there a reasonable witness of the disputed text given A) by other copies of MSS of at least near antiquity of other disputed texts? B) by the writings of church fathers where a) the actual text is quoted; or b) the text is so nearly quoted that it is reasonable to consider this ‘quote’ as a reference to the text in question?
3) Is this a text that has been accepted throughout the years by those who have held to sound biblical doctrine and exegesis?
4) Can we reasonably accept the idea that those saints whom God both chose and used in times past to providentially preserve His words did so with that wisdom which cometh from above, for the sole purpose of delivering to His saints His perfect words?
The above principles remove the scientific critical ideology and philosophy from the process of preservation of the sacred text, and lay that responsibility squarely in the hands of God where it belongs.
To address your specific points:
The reason for quoting these two excerpts from the previous conversation is to note that you agree with the statement that there are around 300 MSS known to preserve I John.
It also establishes that at best, as we know it now anyway, only 21 of those 300 preserve the reading of the comma, and some of those only in the margin.
That would by default then be a minority reading.
When we understand the text of a given MSS is of the Byzantine type text, we then understand that that text is of the MT, while it may have a particular variant (such as the Comma) which may be considered a minority reading, if basing that ‘title’ strictly on a ‘numerical’ count of MSS. Also keep in mind that it was these variants that the Aland’s deemed “errors”. But did this supposed “error”, violate ANY of the above principles?
So now to the point I was making. The majority text as a whole was the text used predominantly by the church over the centuries. As such, I would consider it God's word to those churches, still preserved in the Greek language.
Yet the majority of these disagree with the underlying text for the KJV, and the English translation of the KJV, in that they do not have the comma.
So again the question, how can both be God's word? Or do you assert that the KJV is God's word, but that the majority of the Majority text are not? If so, then preservation seems quite different than what we might think.
Tall there is a difference between having a portion of the complete text, and knowing you may not have the complete text, and having a portion of the complete text, while identifying it AS the complete text. As an example; before giving a testimony in a court room, one is “sworn in”. That oath is often, “Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God”? Why do they go through all that descriptive wording? Because the issue in the court of law is the “truth”.
The truth here in this arena is simply this; what saith God?
We want to know, what did God say, what is all that God said, and we want nothing that He did not say. But to do so using so-called scientific methodology which was developed by men who denied the Divine authorship of the scripture, and who believed that because the Christian scriptures came via men, and NOT God, gives scholars the right to critique them as the works of men, (like all other works of men), is completely outside the scope of Biblical teaching.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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Please observe:

Johann Salomo Semler | biography - German theologian | Encyclopedia Britannica

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“Johann Salomo Semler, (born Dec. 18, 1725, Saalfeld, duchy of Saxe-Saalfeld [Germany]—died March 14, 1791, Halle, Brandenburg), German Lutheran theologian who was a major figure in the development of biblical textual criticism during his tenure (1753–91) as professor of theology at the University of Halle.

Semler was a disciple of the rationalist Siegmund Jakob Baumgarten, whom he succeeded on his death in 1757 as head of the theological faculty. Seeking to study biblical texts scientifically, Semler evolved an undogmatic and strictly historical interpretation of Scripture that provoked strong opposition. He was the first to deny, and to offer substantial evidence supporting his denial, that the entirety of the text of Old and New Testaments was divinely inspired and fully correct. He challenged the divine authority of the biblical canon, which he reexamined in order to determine the sequence of composition of biblical books, their nature, and their manner of transmission. From this work he drew a crucial distinction between an earlier, Jewish form of Christianity and a later, broader form.”

There are three things shown here that are noteworthy: 1) Semler was professor of theology starting in 1753 (this is only one year after Johann Gottfried Eichhorn was born); showing that Semler was at least one gerneration before Eichhorn; 2) Semler was a disciple of the rationalist Siegmund Jakob Baumgarten (this gives indication that it may to well to examine of Siegmund Jakob Baumgarten as well); and 3) “He was the first to deny, and to offer substantial evidence supporting his denial, that the entirety of the Old and New Testaments was divinely inspired and fully correct. He challenged the divine authority of the biblical canon, which he reexamined in order to determine the sequence of composition of biblical books, their nature, and their manner of transmission”.

Please notice, Semler was a theologian, who denied the Divine inspiration of the Scriptures. The question of the hour at this juncture is simply this: On or by what authority does he deny “divine inspiration” and thereby challenge “divine authority of biblical books, their nature, and their manner of transmission”? Did Semler actually believe that his 'intellect' and or learning allowed him that authority? I guess he did, (along with a lot of other scholars that have followed in his footsteps).

The root belief of textual criticism is found in Semler's philosophy. It is expressed in the following:

Biblical Scholarship

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“Biblical Scholarship, professional study of the Bible, in which all relevant intellectual disciplines are brought to bear on the task of interpretation. Biblical scholarship can be distinguished from other approaches to the Bible, such as the devotional one or that of pure literary appreciation, by the fact that it attempts a critical assessment of the Jewish and Christian scriptures in the light of all contemporary resources of knowledge.
Unlike the literature of various other religions, the Bible has always been subject to some measure of scholarly criticism and correction. This criticism undoubtedly developed because Jews and Christians conceive of religion as historical, as the product of definite historical events. Even though the great majority of the Old and New Testament writings are, in fact, anonymous, they have always been ascribed to particular human authors. It has therefore been considered legitimate for other human beings to evaluate them. They have never been regarded simply as a literature transmitted directly from heaven or as so remote from the contemporary human condition as to render them immune to critical study. This is in distinct contrast, for example, to the Islamic and Hindu scriptures (see Koran; Veda). Despite its long standing, however, the notion of critical biblical study has changed radically over the years.”

On the same site however, the following is stated:

“Textual Criticism
Determining what was originally written, whatever its meaning or relevance may be, is the concern of the so-called lower criticism. The textual critic has two means of establishing a text: external and internal criteria. The external criteria comprise the physical properties of the manuscripts themselves—their material, age, and the style of the script—and the history of the manuscripts. (No autograph text of any biblical author has been found and it is unlikely that any will be.) The extant manuscripts of the Old Testament date only from Christian times, hundreds of years after the time of its original composition. Nevertheless, the evidence of the ancient versions (the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate) and the pre-Masoretic fragments (see Masora) that have survived suggests that the standard Hebrew text still extant has been preserved with extraordinary fidelity. The New Testament, on the other hand, is the best-attested text that survives from the Greco-Roman world. Complete and nearly complete New Testament manuscripts date from the 4th century, and numerous existing fragments were probably copied within a century of the original composition of the text. Although literally thousands of variant readings are found among these manuscripts, 90 percent of them involve only incidental matters (such as the substitution of one synonym for another) and present problems that can be solved with relative ease by the textual critic.”

Notice these sentences from the first paragraph above: “Even though the great majority of the Old and New Testament writings are, in fact, anonymous, they have always been ascribed to particular human authors. It has therefore been considered legitimate for other human beings to evaluate them. They have never been regarded simply as a literature transmitted directly from heaven or as so remote from the contemporary human condition as to render them immune to critical study.” I was under the impression that the Scriptures were inspired (God-breathed from heaven). THIS IS THE BASIS (REASON) FOR THE LEGITAMACY OF TEXTUAL CRITICISM. (Because) “ … They [the scriptures] have never been regarded simply as a literature transmitted directly from heaven ...”

Followed by this statement under the heading of “Textual Criticism”.

“Determining what was originally written, whatever its meaning or relevance may be, is the concern of the so-called lower criticism. The textual critic has two means of establishing a text: external and internal criteria. The external criteria comprise the physical properties of the manuscripts themselves—their material, age, and the style of the script—and the history of the manuscripts. (No autograph text of any biblical author has been found and it is unlikely that any will be.)”

Forgive me, I'm a little confused. I was completely unaware, (after reading the Bible), that the Bible had ANY human authors.

You see Tall, this isn’t about numbers of MSS, nearly as much as it is about proper theology, which leads to proper biblical philosophy, which places our dependency upon the finished work of God, not scholars. That is why I believe in the same ‘providential preservation’ as did the men that wrote:

The following is from the “THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH”, With Scripture Proofs,
Adopted by the Ministers and Messengers of the general assembly which met in London in 1689.

1689 LBC: Chapter 1 "Of the Holy Scriptures"

The following excerpt was taken from the above site:

“8._____The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.
(Romans 3:2; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 15:15; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28; Colossians 3:16)”

The Ministers and Messengers of the general assembly (of the Baptist in London), were not the only men who were not affected by the beliefs of Semler and his associates.

The men of the Westminster Confession of 1646 had written the same type of Confession 43 years earlier.

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

Think about it.

Jack
 
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Not true! Modern scholarship acknowledges that the KJV is based on the MT, the TR, along with other Bibles.

That is a half truth. What is said is that the "basis" of the KJV is Erasmus' Textus Receptus, which was based on only a handful of late MSS. (referring to the 1516 Edition, which is NOT part of the lineage of the King James AT ALL.)

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The Bible NEVER said anything about God making a “promise to keep His Word recorded forever and preserved though at times through history mainly hidden and buried.....” Is it not a sin to lie about God?



Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.



God did not give anyone His Word in English without error.



Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.



Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.



Problems with translations other that the King James Translation are not evidence for the perfection of the King James Translation of the Bible. Indeed, they are nothing but distractions from the fact that the King James Translation of the Bible is imperfect as has already been incontrovertibly proven in this thread.

PrincetonGuy, you're not "spaming" are you?

Just asking? By the way, It should be apparent to you, that that your point has not been "incontrovertibly proven in this tread"; if this were the case, there would be no more debate ... would there?

Jack
 
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