KJV-Only Pastor: Angels are Joyless Servants Who Can't Sing

[Dale]

Rev. Wayne Crook, a KJV-only pastor, says that angels cannot sing. This is related to his claim that angels are servants, will always be servants, and that they lack joy. They do not sing because they have nothing to sing about.

Rev. Crook puts this view forward in a series of videos on Youtube, The Nephilim Deception, Part 1, Part 2, etc. The title of the series comes about because Crook says that the notion that angels could interbreed with mortals in Genesis Chapter 6 is preposterous, an absurd misinterpretation. I agree with him on this and I'm glad to see the stand he takes on Genesis 6.

He says that angels are not our brothers, aren't sons of God's Kingdom, and that Jesus did not die to redeem them. When Christians get to heaven they will reign in heaven but angels are only there to serve. It doesn't occur to Crook that angels are wise because they have been around for thousands of years. To him they are just servants.

There are reasons to doubt Crook's position on angels. There is no book of the Bible devoted to angels, or any chapter of the Bible, or any passage that explains the position of angels. (There is one partial exception, dealt with in another post.) Angels are mentioned or referred to but we are not told anything about them. The non-denominational movement has used the slogan, "Where the Bible is silent, we are silent." That slogan might be good advice where we know so little.

Some Christians believe that the souls of believers become angels when they get to heaven. Others prefer to believe that humans and angels are in separate categories. Again, the Bible tells us so little about angels that it is hard to back up either position. The Bible does not spell out the origin or creation of angels, their status, or their destiny. Are there female angels? We don't know, none seem to be mentioned. Are angels genderless? We don't know that either.

Rev. Crook's picture of angels is contrary to tradition, which has always shown angels as singing, playing harps, and joyously praising God. This is how angels are pictured in Christmas carols, for instance. These traditions have no authority but they demonstrate that most Christians read the Bible as saying that angels are joyous.

Conceptual Difficulties: Crook says that angels are joyless servants, apparently because he cannot reconcile servanthood or servant-status with happiness. For Crook, if we, as humans, are to be joyous in heaven, we must cease to serve, we must stop being servants. Yet the Bible says no such thing. The Biblical view is that we will all be servants to the Most High God in eternity, but we will be joyous servants. Jesus is King, Lord, and head of the church, which makes the rest of us obedient servants to our King.


Rev. Wayne Crook on Youtube:

The Nephilim Deception, Part I

The Nephilim Deception, Part II

The Nephilim Deception, Part III

The Nephilim Deception, Part IV

The Nephilim Deception, Part V

The Nephilim Deception, Part VI
The Nephilim Deception, Part 6 Job & the sons of God 3 (Mirrored)

The Nephilim Deception, Part VII
The Nephilim Deception, Part 7 Job & the sons of God 4 (Mirorred)

The Nephilim Deception, Part VIII
The Nephilim Deception, Part 8 Genesis 6 (Mirorred)

The Nephilim Deception, Part IX
The Nephilim Deception, Part 9 Giants are people too! (Mirrored)

The Nephilim Deception, Part X
The Nephilim Deception, Part 10 Giants conclusion, Psalm 8 (Mirrored)

 

[Dale]

Most Christians, speaking from memory, would say that angels sang at the birth of Christ in the Gospel of Luke. Rev. Crook correctly points out that a strict reading of Luke shows the angels speaking the words, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men."

13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
--Luke 2: 10-14 KJV


The KJV says the angels were "saying," not "singing." The New International Version, the Revised Standard Version and Young's Literal Translation agree that the angels were "saying," not "singing." Despite Rev. Crook's tendency to lash out of other translations, I haven't seen any sign of a conspiracy to replace "saying" with "singing."

But is "saying" versus "singing" the crucial point? In general, anyone with vocal cords can both speak and sing, so anyone who can talk can sing. A modern person might reason that speaking is a left-brained function while singing is a right-brained function but surely St. Luke didn't see it that way. The presumption is that angels can sing and no verse in the Bible refutes that.

What do commentators say? In the famous and influential commentary of John Gill we find:

<< ... for the angels are innumerable; there are thousands, ten thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand of them: it may be rendered "the multitude", and may intend the whole company of angels, who were all of them together to sing the praises of God, and glorify him at the birth of the incarnate Saviour ... >>

John Gill, who is quite familiar with New Testament Greek, as well as the Jewish view of angels, does see angels as singing at the birth of Christ. Gill sees the angels singing willingly, and not just because they are servants who have been ordered to do so.

Rev. Crook uses the same reasoning for those (angels? Human spirits?) praising God in Revelation. His interpretation falls short for the same reasons.


Link for John Gill Commentary for Luke 2:13:
Luke 2:13 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Bro. Daniel]

Interesting study.

Try broadening the research to Enoch 69 as it correlates with Genesis 6 giving a more detailed explanation supporting how some of the angels (about 200 I believe) intermingled with humans creating Nephilim and Elouid.

Their children were initially destroyed in the great flood and the angels did it again causing them to be locked away in the Abyss because of their unrepentant sin against God. It also reveals how they taught mankind on earth witchcraft, root works, abortion, writing with pen and ink and much more.

And since Rev. Cook refuses Enoch, another good way to find out if it's true, pray and confirm with the Lord as He's always wanting someone to seek Him out on a matter.

I've already dealt with Nephilim in the spirit realm. They're not pleasant. It says they're born with 6 fingers and 6 toes. You see people even today born with them but they are lopped off and don't realize they have it in their bloodline.

Psalm 14:2
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Blessings,

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is related to his claim that angels are servants, will always be servants, and that they lack joy. They do not sing because they have nothing to sing about.

and yet

The Biblical view is that we will all be servants to the Most High God in eternity, but we will be joyous servants. Jesus is King, Lord, and head of the church, which makes the rest of us obedient servants to our King.

and yet,
we do not have to wait to be servants to the Most High God (woe to those who wait!),
and
we do not have to wait to be filled continually with RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE and JOY as written of all the ekklesia in the New Testament (already on earth, as soon as they were born again and lived according to or as written in ACTS, etc etc etc

 

[Radagast]

...and that Jesus did not die to redeem them.

This seems to be the one correct statement. The good angels did not sin, so do not need redemption.

 

[Dale]

The angels in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents.
Luke 15:10

“Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.”

Luke 15:7
“I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.”

Good point, Vin!

However, Rev. Crook doesn't agree.

10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
--Luke 15:10 KJV


Rev. Crook explains away this well-known verse by saying that it isn't the angels who are joyful. It is God who feels joy over the repentent sinner.

Since the verse as written doesn't fit with his theology, Crook simply rewrites it:

"...there is joy in the presence of the angels in the mind of God over one sinner that repenteth."

In effect, Crook deletes a phrase not to his liking and inserts another in its place.

Why would Jesus mention "joy" and "angels" in the same sentence if the angels don't feel this joy?

 

[Dale]

Interesting study.

Try broadening the research to Enoch 69 as it correlates with Genesis 6 giving a more detailed explanation supporting how some of the angels (about 200 I believe) intermingled with humans creating Nephilim and Elouid.

Their children were initially destroyed in the great flood and the angels did it again causing them to be locked away in the Abyss because of their unrepentant sin against God. It also reveals how they taught mankind on earth witchcraft, root works, abortion, writing with pen and ink and much more.

And since Rev. Cook refuses Enoch, another good way to find out if it's true, pray and confirm with the Lord as He's always wanting someone to seek Him out on a matter.

I've already dealt with Nephilim in the spirit realm. They're not pleasant. It says they're born with 6 fingers and 6 toes. You see people even today born with them but they are lopped off and don't realize they have it in their bloodline.

Psalm 14:2
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Blessings,

The last time I commented on the Book of Enoch on CF, my comments were sharply rejected because the person I was talking to was reading a different Book of Enoch. Apparently there is more than one of them.

I don't believe in any of them and I am alarmed that anyone takes them seriously.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm going to go ahead and say that when Isaiah sees the six-winged seraphim shouting "Holy, holy, holy" that they aren't doing it with a dour expression; same with St. John in the Apocalypse.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hank77]

Excellent dragon slaying everyone. The truth is in the Bible.

 

[Dale]

Most people familiar with the Bible would say that the "morning stars" and "Sons of God" in Job, which appear to be one and the same, are angels.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
--Job 38: 4-7 KJV

God is speaking out of the whirlwind in this passage. Where was Job when God "laid the foundations of the earth?" It's a rhetorical question. Job wasn't there because he hadn't been born yet, his ancestors hadn't been created yet.

How does Rev. Crook deal with this passage, which seems to tell us that angels are Sons of God and do have joy, contrary to Crook's conclusions? He says that the Sons of God here are human worshippers. To the obvious rejoinder that humans hadn't been created when the foundations of the earth were laid, Crook says that God foresaw that men and women who loved their God would rejoice over His creation. God is fondly thinking of His future human worshippers, not joyless angels. It doesn't occur to Crook that it is presumptuous to claim to know what is going on in God's mind.

While John Milton believed that angels existed long before the earth was created, Rev. Crook doesn't think so. Crook says that angels were created on the fourth day of creation. In other words, angels are stars, or the stars in Genesis 1:14-19 are angels. Crook weakens his own case here. If angels are stars in Genesis One, then the Morning Stars who are also Sons of God in Job 38 must also be angels. The Morning Stars in Job "sang together," according to the KJV.

Angels were not made in God's image, Rev. Crook tells us. This gives us a puzzling view of what it means to be made in God's image. Are angels not made in God's image because they don't have physical bodies? It sounds like this is Crook's intention but then he goes on to say that God is spirit. Then he says that among the sons of Adam and Eve, Seth had God's image but Cain did not. Either Cain didn't inherit that gene or he lost it at some point, certainly by the time he committed murder.

Personally, this only leaves me confused. I would say that being made in God's image means that we have minds that reason and souls that can make moral choices. If so, angels would be made in God's image even if they don't have physical bodies.

 

[Dale]

The "sons of God" appear much earlier in Job. This phrase has almost invariably been taken to mean angels. Rev. Crook says that isn't possible, the "sons of God" in Chapters 1-2 of Job are living men.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
--Job 1:6-7 KJV

2 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
--Job 2:1-2 KJV


In Crook's interpretation, living men come to the Temple to present their sacrifices and this is what these two passages are referring to. Or perhaps they came to the Tabernacle if the Temple hadn't been built yet. Does this make any sense? The problem is that to Crook the action is taking place on two levels. Actual men come to the Temple or Tabernacle, and these are visible. Then God, who is invisible, speaks to Satan, who is invisible. If the action is God speaking with Satan, why do both passages start off with the "sons of God" as the subject, unless Satan is one of those sons? Satan could be seen as an estranged son of God, after all. Why do both passages introduce characters, human worshipers, and set the scene, the Temple, or Tabernacle, when both are irrelevant?

The Book of Job does put literalists in a quandry. The Book of Job draws us a picture of Satan not only in heaven but advising God on how to deal with individual mortals. Sounds like bad theology at best. Some have reasoned that the Fall of the Rebel Angels did not take place until after this story took place. This is certainly in contrast to the view which John Milton portrayed in Paradise Lost, where the rebel angels, including Satan, are cast out of heaven before the earth is created.

It makes far more sense to see the Book of Job as a story composed to make a point. It is a theological work which explores the problem of evil. Why does a good man have to suffer? In this light, Satan in Job is a literary device. The Book of Job isn't intended to put forward a theology of angels and demons, or to tell us the place of Satan, past or present. It is designed to pose the problem of why good people suffer for no apparent reason. In the end, it tells us that God's ways are above our ways and that we must trust that God is wiser than we are.

 

[FireDragon76]

The nativity stories in Matthew and Luke seem to suggest that they do, even if it is not explicit, but I think you are right. If they can speak, they can also sing.

In Luther's From Heaven Above .., (Vom Himmel Hoch..), he describes the angels as singing, and I believe that is the traditional understanding of the Nativity accounts of the appearance of the angels. Whether it is absolutely correct or not I think is not so important. Many parts of the Scriptures that look like plain text are in fact hymns, even if we do not recognize them today as such, because music was very different back then than it is today.

 

[1watchman]

Well, it seems we always must deal with extremes in other people (even in ourselves if not careful), so we can leave it alone. Certainly there is not a verse in the Bible showing Angels sing, so we should not guess at that, but they due rejoice and are glad. The "stars" in Job did not literally sing, and that expression (an allegory) simply means the whole universe rejoiced (in the unity and order). Let us try to understand God's meaning rather than imagine things from a word.

 

[Radagast]

Who is this "Rev. Wayne Crook" anyway, and why should we care what he thinks?

He sounds like a heretic to me.

 

[Bro. Daniel]

The last time I commented on the Book of Enoch on CF, my comments were sharply rejected because the person I was talking to was reading a different Book of Enoch. Apparently there is more than one of them.

I don't believe in any of them and I am alarmed that anyone takes them seriously.

Either way, it is always best to go to God for confirmation on any subject matter in the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us in any form of discernment, clarity, revelation, wisdom, knowledge and understanding in prayer. God is the ultimate source of truth after all. You'd be amazed at what God reveals to those who seek Him wholeheartedly.

Psalm 118:8-9
8 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes.

Plus, I would be very careful of anyone speaking any thing about the current Elohim Angels who are charged over us as Psalm 91:11-12 teaches since God is the one who assigns them over us for protection. The Bible also says not to provoke Angels as they do not pardon our transgressions.

Psalm 91:11-12
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Exodus 23:20-21
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

Blessings.

 

[Dale]

4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
--Psalm 8: 4-5 KJV


Oddly enough, Rev. Crook reads this verse, apparently without realizing that it contradicts his main point. Crook says that angels are lower than human souls. Pslams says that man is lower than angels, the opposite position. Certainly this appears to be true. Angels are pictured as being in heaven, immune to disease, injury, aging and death, and gazing on the throne of God. That sounds like a position higher and more desirable than any person in this world. This passage should be important to Crook since it is one of the few passages in the Bible that tells us anything about the status of angels. In this case, instead of rewriting it, he simply ignores it.

In the New Testament, Hebrews repeats the same point made in Psalms.

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 2: 5-9 KJV

Hebrews amplifies the point made in Psalms. Angels are higher than humans. The present world and the world to come are both subject to the regulation of angels. When Jesus became human, he certainly appeared to assume a status lower than the angels, subject to injury and death. The second chapter of Hebrews tells us more about angels than any other section of the Bible, although Revelation gives us more examples of what angels do. There is no trace of the point that Rev. Crook would make. We are given no reason to believe that angels are lower than humans, that God loves them less than humans or human spirits, no reason to believe that their eternal destiny will be any less happy than that of human souls.

 

[Dale]

Who is this "Rev. Wayne Crook" anyway, and why should we care what he thinks?

He sounds like a heretic to me.

I have encountered similar views in the past. In Bible Study, people have told me that they believe that angels are lower than humans, and resisted attempts to show otherwise from Scripture. They are aware of the passage in Psalms that says that man is lower than the angels, yet they cling to their belief that it is the other way around.

That is one reason I did this thread, I have seen similar beliefs.

 

[prodromos]

Revelation 4:8
And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”