KJV-Only Pastor: Angels are Joyless Servants Who Can't Sing

[Radagast]

Revelation 4:8
And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

What translation is that? My Bible doesn't actually say "sing."

And when I say "my Bible," I mean NIV, ESV, CSB, NASB, NLT, NABRE, NKJV, KJV, and the Greek text itself (καὶ τὰ τέσσερα ζῷα, ἓν καθ’ ἓν αὐτῶν ἔχων ἀνὰ πτέρυγας ἕξ, κυκλόθεν καὶ ἔσωθεν γέμουσιν ὀφθαλμῶν· καὶ ἀνάπαυσιν οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς λέγοντες, ἅγιος ἅγιος ἅγιος κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁπαντοκράτωρ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος).

 

[prodromos]

What translation is that? My Bible doesn't actually say "sing."

And when I say "my Bible," I mean NIV, ESV, CSB, NASB, NLT, NABRE, NKJV, KJV, and the Greek text itself (καὶ τὰ τέσσερα ζῷα, ἓν καθ’ ἓν αὐτῶν ἔχων ἀνὰ πτέρυγας ἕξ, κυκλόθεν καὶ ἔσωθεν γέμουσιν ὀφθαλμῶν· καὶ ἀνάπαυσιν οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς λέγοντες, ἅγιος ἅγιος ἅγιος κύριος ὁ θεὸς ὁπαντοκράτωρ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος).

RSV. I hadn't checked the Greek text, but you're right, the Greek has "saying". I'm not familiar enough with KOINE to know if "λέγοντες" can also mean "singing" or not. Modern Greek generally doesn't, as far as I know.

 

[Dale]

Revelation 4:8
And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”

Thanks for pointing that out, Prodromos. The Revised Standard translation says "singing" in that verse. Rev. Crook is confined to the KJV.

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--Revelation 4: 10-11 KJV

The KJV says the angels were speaking rather than singing, so Rev. Crook takes that as final.
As I said earlier in connection with the nativity story in Luke, "saying" versus "singing" may not be the real point. It looks like angels can sing even if they are not singing here. There is no sign in Scripture that angels are denied joy as Crook thinks they are.

 

[Dale]

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church
--1 Corinthians 6:2-4 KJV

Rev. Crook uses this passage to say that men and women must be above angels if we to judge angels.

The problem is that Crook's conclusion rests on his unsupported assumption that people and angels are in two separate categories, two sealed compartments. The Bible says no such thing. It is just as reasonable to believe that Paul thought that people become angels when they leave this world, when they die. Christians become angels after death, and perhaps those who are cast out become dark angels. This puts the business of judging angels in a different light. A Christian dies, becomes an angel, then is eventually promoted into a position of supervising or judging other angels.

Crook's use of this passage is circular reasoning, it only works if you start with his assumptions.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Angels are spirit beings. It is irrrelevant as to whether they "sing" as understood by Man.

THE ANGELS

The existence of angels - a truth of faith
328 The existence of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls "angels"
is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition.
Who are they?
329 St. Augustine says: "'Angel' is the name of their office, not of their nature.
If you seek the name of their nature, it is 'spirit';
if you seek the name of their office, it is 'angel':
from what they are, 'spirit',
from what they do, 'angel.'"
188 With their whole beings the angels are servants and messengers of God.
Because they "always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven"
they are the "mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word".189
330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will:
they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures,
as the splendor of their glory bears witness.190

Christ "with all his angels"

331 Christ is the center of the angelic world. They are his angels:
"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him. . "191
They belong to him because they were created through and for him:
"for in him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities - all things were created through him and for him."192
They belong to him still more because he has made them messengers of his saving plan:
"Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?"193

332 Angels have been present since before creation of Mankind and throughout the history of salvation,
announcing this salvation from afar or near and serving the accomplishment of the divine plan:
they closed the earthly paradise;
protected Lot;
saved Hagar and her child;
stayed Abraham's hand;
communicated the law by their ministry;
led the People of God;
announced births and callings;
and assisted the prophets,
just to cite a few examples.194
Finally, the angel Gabriel announced the birth of the Precursor and that of Jesus himself.195

333 From the Incarnation to the Ascension, the life of the Word incarnate is surrounded
by the adoration and service of angels.
When God "brings the firstborn into the world, he says: 'Let all God's angels worship him.'"196
Their "song of praise" at the birth of Christ has not ceased resounding in the Church's praise: "Glory to God in the highest!"197
They protect Jesus in his infancy,
serve him in the desert,
strengthen him in his agony in the garden,
when he could have been saved by them from the hands of his enemies as Israel had been.198
Again, it is the angels who "evangelize" by proclaiming the Good News of Christ's Incarnation and Resurrection.199
They will be present at Christ's return, which they will announce, to serve at his judgement.200 (Catechism of Cathoolic Church)

I believe in angels .
Angels have protected me and mine .
I was on my way home one night and I suddenly stopped at a corner that I usually don't stop at .
I'm sure an angel nudged me . If I hadn't stopped I would have hit a woman dressed in dark clothing dead on .
ANGELS: They are in ~34 books, and the word "angel" appears ~275 times.

Jesus on Angels:

(to his disciples) The Parable of the Lost Sheep..."children's angels?"
Matthew 18 (NIV)
10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones (childen).
For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven...
11 The Son of Man came to save what was lost....
he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.
14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

(to his disciples) Arrest in the garden of Gethsemane
Matthew 26 (NIV)
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him,
"for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father,
and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

Angels were CREATED before the world in a state of holiness.

Colossians 1 (NIV) The Supremacy of Jesus the Christ

13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness
and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created:
things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible,
whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church;
he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead,
so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things,
whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Angels have intellect, emotions, and free will.

1 Peter 1:12 (NIV)
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you,
when they spoke of the things that have now been told you
by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.
Even angels long to look into these things.

Luke 2 The Shepherds and the Angels
8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby,
keeping watch over their flocks at night.
9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them,
and the glory of the Lord shone around them,
and they were terrified.
10 But the angel said to them,
"Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.
12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14 "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."
15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another,
"Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."

Jude 1
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home
—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Angels are SPIRIT beings who live forever, not human, do not reproduce, and have great power.
One ARCHangel is named "Michael". Another named "Gabriel"? Seraphim! Cherabim!
Do they have wings? Most have appeared as a man dressed in white...glowing?

"Guardian Angels":

Hebrews 1 The Jesus the God-Man, the Son, the Messaih is Superior to Angels
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Angels have been and may be MESSENGERS, who PREDICT, ANNOUNCE, PROTECT, DEFEND, AID, CARE for,OBSERVE, ENCOURAGE those who believe.

To unbelievers??

 

[Doug Melven]

What I wonder is, why the big deal about angels being joyless?
When a sinner repents there is joy in the presence of the angels.
Zephaniah 3:17 says God rejoices over us with singing.
And as noted in post 25 angels are always in God's Presence.
Why make Heaven look like such a gloomy place?

 

[Dale]

What I wonder is, why the big deal about angels being joyless?
When a sinner repents there is joy in the presence of the angels.
Zephaniah 3:17 says God rejoices over us with singing.
And as noted in post 25 angels are always in God's Presence.
Why make Heaven look like such a gloomy place?

It is my understanding that Rev. Crook can only be happy if there is somebody under him. There has to be somebody lower than he is, somebody other than those who don't make it to heaven.

I think that's the wrong attitude for a Christian.

One of the lines from the famous poem Desiderata:
"Comparing yourself to others may bring great bitterness:
There will always be greater and lesser men."

 

[ToBeLoved]

Who is this "Rev. Wayne Crook" anyway, and why should we care what he thinks?

He sounds like a heretic to me.

I think so too.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'd also like to question.

Are "Nephilium" even angels in heaven that stayed with God?

I though Nephilium were the watchers or something

 

[Bro. Daniel]

I'd also like to question.

Are "Nephilium" even angels in heaven that stayed with God?

I though Nephilium were the watchers or something

The Nephilim are the offspring of the Sons of God referenced in Genesis 6 correlating with Enoch 69 and the book of Jubilees. The watchers are being punished sitting in an Abyss locked away for sinning twice in this matter and will be the ones judged per 1 Corinthians 6:3.

Anyone exposed to sin for too long will be tempted which is what they encountered and fell. Third of the host of Heaven fell with Lucifer prior to that so it's possible.

The sites below elaborate more on the subject with translations from the dead sea scrolls etc.
The Days of Noah were the Days of the Nephilim: Genesis Sixth Chapter

Fallen Angels, Nephilim and Immortality

The names of the Watchers

Blessings,
Philippians 4:20

 

[ViaCrucis]

If one were to ask me if angels literally sing in God's presence--as though to mean if angels have physical larynxes which vibrate to produce sound when air passes through them and that these then are used in such a way as to produce melodic, harmonious sounds comprised of some form of meter and timbre then no.

But if one were to ask me if the angels joyously exalt God, and if the language of "song" as an expression of that joyous exaltation of God is appropriate, I'd say absolutely yes--that the angels absolutely do sing and declare the praises of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ToBeLoved]

The Nephilim are the offspring of the Sons of God referenced in Genesis 6 correlating with Enoch 69 and the book of Jubilees. The watchers are being punished sitting in an Abyss locked away for sinning twice in this matter and will be the ones judged per 1 Corinthians 6:3.

Anyone exposed to sin for too long will be tempted which is what they encountered and fell. Third of the host of Heaven fell with Lucifer prior to that so it's possible.

The sites below elaborate more on the subject with translations from the dead sea scrolls etc.
The Days of Noah were the Days of the Nephilim: Genesis Sixth Chapter

Fallen Angels, Nephilim and Immortality

The names of the Watchers

Blessings,
Philippians 4:20

I’m just looking at the titles of the videos wondering if he wants to talk about whether angels in heaven sing, the word he uses on his video titles would be nephelilm anyways.

Seems very odd and theologically off.

 

[Bro. Daniel]

I’m just looking at the titles of the videos wondering if he wants to talk about whether angels in heaven sing, the word he uses on his video titles would be nephelilm anyways.

Seems very odd and theologically off.

Ahmen, because there's Galatians 1:8-9 and Jeremiah 23 to consider so we all have to be careful what we preach and teach.

It's always best to confirm with the Lord on the truth in anything.

God bless you richly a billionfold in Yahushua's name.

 

[Dale]

The Nephilim are the offspring of the Sons of God referenced in Genesis 6 correlating with Enoch 69 and the book of Jubilees. The watchers are being punished sitting in an Abyss locked away for sinning twice in this matter and will be the ones judged per 1 Corinthians 6:3.

Anyone exposed to sin for too long will be tempted which is what they encountered and fell. Third of the host of Heaven fell with Lucifer prior to that so it's possible.

The sites below elaborate more on the subject with translations from the dead sea scrolls etc.
The Days of Noah were the Days of the Nephilim: Genesis Sixth Chapter

Fallen Angels, Nephilim and Immortality

The names of the Watchers

Blessings,
Philippians 4:20

The notion that angels could mate with mortal women is quite bizarre. The beginning of Genesis 6 seems to be the only passage that has been thought to support that point of view.

I have talked with someone on CF who did believe that and the theology that emerges is both very odd and potentially dangerous. We are told that God destroyed the world in the Deluge to get rid of the Nephilim, then clumsily allowed more Nephilim to be born after the Flood, resulting in other giants in the OT, including Goliath. Worse, the descendants of demons are apparently still with us today. Are they the source of evil in the world?

Yet there is a completely non-supernatural interpretation of the Genesis 6 passage that avoids all of these difficulties. It also fits much better with what we know about the concerns of the Jewish people about intermarriage.

The "Sons of God" could refer to a group of people who has knowledge of the Most High God. The "Daughters of Men" could refer to a group of people who lacks that knowledge. They are more materialistic, or they could be pagans. In this situation, if the "Sons of God" are not careful about who they marry, their knowledge of God's ways will be diluted with every generation. If the "Sons of God" are not careful about the education of their children, it gets worse, the process of spiritual degeneration is accelerated.

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
--Genesis 6: 4 NIV

There is nothing in this passage as written that says that Nephilim are evil. If they were giants, they may have been spiritual giants. The same verse tells us about "heroes, men of renown." It doesn't sound like this passage is telling us that the Nephilim are the greatest evil the world has ever seen. The meaning could very well be that there were spiritual giants before this knowledge of God's ways was diluted by intermarriage and poor education of children.

That is a very different meaning. Instead of supposing the existence of cohabiting angels and their offspring, it deals with problems and tendencies that we know exist. Isn't that a better interpretation?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The notion that angels could mate with mortal women is quite bizarre. The beginning of Genesis 6 seems to be the only passage that has been thought to support that point of view.

I have talked with someone on CF who did believe that and the theology that emerges is both very odd and potentially dangerous. We are told that God destroyed the world in the Deluge to get rid of the Nephilim, then clumsily allowed more Nephilim to be born after the Flood, resulting in other giants in the OT, including Goliath. Worse, the descendants of demons are apparently still with us today. Are they the source of evil in the world?

Yet there is a completely non-supernatural interpretation of the Genesis 6 passage that avoids all of these difficulties. It also fits much better with what we know about the concerns of the Jewish people about intermarriage.

The "Sons of God" could refer to a group of people who has knowledge of the Most High God. The "Daughters of Men" could refer to a group of people who lacks that knowledge. They are more materialistic, or they could be pagans. In this situation, if the "Sons of God" are not careful about who they marry, their knowledge of God's ways will be diluted with every generation. If the "Sons of God" are not careful about the education of their children, it gets worse, the process of spiritual degeneration is accelerated.

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
--Genesis 6: 4 NIV

There is nothing in this passage as written that says that Nephilim are evil. If they were giants, they may have been spiritual giants. The same verse tells us about "heroes, men of renown." It doesn't sound like this passage is telling us that the Nephilim are the greatest evil the world has ever seen. The meaning could very well be that there were spiritual giants before this knowledge of God's ways was diluted by intermarriage and poor education of children.

That is a very different meaning. Instead of supposing the existence of cohabiting angels and their offspring, it deals with problems and tendencies that we know exist. Isn't that a better interpretation?

Well just to put it into perspective, God didn't gave much of a choice if only 7 people were not wicked. I think with only 7 people left God might have been protecting Christ's blood line. But that is theory

 

[Dale]

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
--Revelation 22: 8-9 KJV



As usual, Wayne Crook sees what he wants to see in this passage. He sees it as a statement that angels are servants. What John's angel actually says is that he is a "fellowservant." Crook translates "fellowservant" as "servant" for his own purposes. It would make just as much sense to translate it as "fellow." Further, the angels says that he is a "fellowservant" of "them which keep the sayings of this book" and of "thy brethren the prophets." He is "thy fellowservant." In other words, the angel is a fellowservant along with Christians and prophets. There is no distinction in status between John and his angel guide, they are fellows, and both servants of the Most High, along with Christians on earth, and along with God's prophets.

 

[Dale]

There are other passages that seem to refer to angels singing, even in the KJV. It certainly sounds like "Sing, O heavens" means that angels are singing.

23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
--Isaiah 44: 22-3 KJV

13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
--Isaiah 49: 13 KJV