Killing Children is Justified

[jay1]

Hi There,

I recently asked a couple of questions about instances in the Bible where it says people should be killed. However the answers that i got shocked me.

It seems that some Christians are willing to condone killing children. please restore my faith in humanity and tell me this is not true

Please read this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t7607751-2/ Please read from post 18.

I posted in a Christians only thread by mistake but i have moved it here as i would like to explore this further esp. posts by Sketcher.

Can this view be supported?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Killing children as punishment? I would say that is never right. You might find something supporting it in the Old Testament but I don't consider the OT infallible in fact I don't believe in infallible books at all.

 

[jay1]

Killing children as punishment? I would say that is never wrong. You might find something supporting it in the Old Testament but I don't consider the OT infallible in fact I don't believe in infallible books at all.

I hope that this is some misguided attempt at humour.

What is your serious opinion after reading the posts?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

What is your serious opinion after reading the posts?

Maybe I misunderstood your question. I skimmed through the thread you linked too but couldn't find it. Care to elaborate on what type of killing and the reasons being given for it? I just gave a general answer regarding the killing of children as punishment which I thought it might be about.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

doh! I see the problem. I said it was never "wrong" lol. I meant to type right. It's never right to kill children as punishment I'll go edit it.

 

[Faulty]

What you are reading there in the OT, where God says certain people are deserving of death, shows you where these people stand with God, deserving of death for their actions.

You can also see the mercy of God in that He doesn't outright kill people deserving of death, which are all of us in actuality. But it's also a warning, those who do die in these sins will stand before a God who they already know will judge those sins harshly unless they turn to Him for forgivness. It's only by His mercy that we even live after we first sin. Everyday is an undeserved gift.

 

[3rdHeaven]

doh! I see the problem. I said it was never "wrong" lol. I meant to type right. It's never right to kill children as punishment I'll go edit it.

I'm glad it was a typo I figured it was but nevertheless your post still begs the question "when is it right to kill children" Perhaps you meant, it's never right to kill children [period] ?

 

[jay1]

What you are reading there in the OT, where God says certain people are deserving of death, shows you where these people stand with God, deserving of death for their actions.

You can also see the mercy of God in that He doesn't outright kill people deserving of death, which are all of us in actuality. But it's also a warning, those who do die in these sins will stand before a God who they already know will judge those sins harshly unless they turn to Him for forgivness. It's only by His mercy that we even live after we first sin. Everyday is an undeserved gift.

That may be true but what i am asking is: Do Christians agree that, for instance, it is right to "Stone disobedient children" (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
Prostitution is punished by burning the woman alive according to Leviticus 21:9 is this right? But the one that interests me the most is:

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Sketcher seems to think this is entirely justified, do you?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I'm glad it was a typo I figured it was but nevertheless your post still begs the question "when is it right to kill children" Perhaps you meant, it's never right to kill children [period] ?

Sure. It's hard to be absolute on issues because there can be so many variables and strange circumstances in life but that's one of the few that you can probably be absolute on.

 

[jay1]

Sure. It's hard to be absolute on issues because there can be so many variables and strange circumstances in life but that's one of the few that you can probably be absolute on.

Yet the Bible does not propose this as an absolute. In fact it points to the contrary.

How can Christians say that morality comes from the Bible when it seems to be the most immoral book ever written?

P.s. typos can happen to anybody.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Yet the Bible does not propose this as an absolute. In fact it points to the contrary.

In the Old Testament I've seen some things that might agree with your assertion. Not all of the OT is of same spiritual and psychological worth though. Certainly there are many valuable myths and allegories but some of the teachings are far from perfect. You can find teachings (execution of homosexuals, forcing a rapist to marry his rape victim, etc..) that now would rightly be viewed as barbaric and represented the level that the Israelite community was at the time in those particular areas.

How can Christians say that morality comes from the Bible when it seems to be the most immoral book ever written?

Not all Christians would say that. I wouldn't. Morality doesn't come from a book.

 

[jay1]

In the Old Testament I've seen some things that might agree with your assertion. Not all of the OT is of same spiritual and psychological worth though. Certainly there are many valuable myths and allegories but some of the teachings are far from perfect. You can find teachings (execution of homosexuals, forcing a rapist to marry his rape victim, etc..) that now would rightly be viewed as barbaric and represented the level that the Israelite community was at the time in those particular areas.

Yet some Christians are literal believers in the Bible. How can they reconcile this? How do you reconcile your faith with these teachings of the Bible, when the Bible is supposed to be the infallible word of God?


Not all Christians would say that. I wouldn't. Morality doesn't come from a book.

You, sir, are making the most sense of any Christian i have spoken to so far. If only your brethren shared the same view.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Well, a lot of Christians would probably disagree with me. Many Christians have never really studyed their faith, it's history, various scriptures, etc. If you asked them if it is wrong to kill a child in punishment for a crime they would probably say "yes it's wrong". If you showed them that the OT says to do it there is a possibility they would come up with an excuse saying that it was ok then but not now. Fundamentalist Christians would adamantly support it just because a book said so.

 

[drich0150]

Why would you choose to follow the immoral teachings of the Bible?

Two things first the scriptures you left are Old Testament Jewish commands, and as we are not nor strive to be OT Jews these "teachings" do not apply.

Second we have to define "Morality." This is a term used to describe an allowance of sin man is willing to accept, and incorporate into God's perfect standard, in his life. This term has one place an intrinsic value on a specific act rather than derive righteousness from the service of God.

In other words "moral people" tend to look at works as being good or evil in of themselves or the works themselves having value rather than actual service to God. In reality Service to God is paramount, but when one looks to compromise God's stated righteousness in favor of some or "minor" sin in one's life, then service to God is removed from a proud heart, and value is then ascribed to the acts themselves. Subsequently if there are inherently "good acts" then in turn there are intrinsically bad actions as well.

When in Fact our deeds in of themselves are of little value. It is the reason why we do what we do that makes a deed Righteous or sinful. The deeds themselves are of little value.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Morality - acting in love. "Love and do as you will" as St Augustine said. Or as another person formulated it "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law"

 

[jay1]

Two things first the scriptures you left are Old Testament Jewish commands, and as we are not nor strive to be OT Jews these "teachings" do not apply.

Again we come to this part of the OT is for Jews, ignore that. Can you tell me what other parts of the Bible are not for Christians?

Why keep these parts of the Bible if they don't relate to Christianity?

Second we have to define "Morality." This is a term used to describe an allowance of sin man is willing to accept, and incorporate into God's perfect standard, in his life. This term has one place an intrinsic value on a specific act rather than derive righteousness from the service of God.

In other words "moral people" tend to look at works as being good or evil in of themselves or the works themselves having value rather than actual service to God. In reality Service to God is paramount, but when one looks to compromise God's stated righteousness in favor of some or "minor" sin in one's life, then service to God is removed from a proud heart, and value is then ascribed to the acts themselves. Subsequently if there are inherently "good acts" then in turn there are intrinsically bad actions as well.

When in Fact our deeds in of themselves are of little value. It is the reason why we do what we do that makes a deed Righteous or sinful. The deeds themselves are of little value.

Do you believe that morals are derived from God and the Bible? i ask because you said God a lot when talking about morals.

If so, then i would disagree with your definition.

 

[jay1]

Morality - acting in love. "Love and do as you will" as St Augustine said. Or as another person formulated it "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, love is the law"

I wouldn't use "do as thou wilt..." that was one of the favourite quotes of Alisteir Crowley, the self proclaimed most evil man in the world, a dedicated satanist.

If you see a picture of him, you may recognise him from the cover of the Beatles album "Sgt. Pepper"

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I wouldn't use "do as thou wilt..." that was one of the favourite quotes of Alisteir Crowley, the self proclaimed most evil man in the world, a dedicated satanist.

Yeah I know. I thought it was somewhat funny that he said the same thing as Augustine pretty much. He wasn't really as evil as he made himself out to be and I don't believe he was Satanist either though. A lot of his "evilness" was for show.

 

[jay1]

Yeah I know. I thought it was somewhat funny that he said the same thing as Augustine pretty much. He wasn't really as evil as he made himself out to be and I don't believe he was Satanist either though. A lot of his "evilness" was for show.[/QUOTE

His biography doesn't read like that of a good man though.

i did, however, enjoy the juxtaposition. which i think was your intent.

 

[jay1]

i would love to get more Christians on here, so i can guage the wider viewpoint.