Killing Children is Justified

[jay1]

Basics: "killing," is present tense. One would be lead to believe your concern is that G-d has an interest in presently killing children. This is a reasonable concern for someone who is a TOTAL NOVICE. You, professing yourself to know a thing or two about this, have no excuse.

If a murderer kills a number of people on different occasions in the past is it unreasonable to assume he might do it in the future?

Remember, God created evil and allows it to endure

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Jesus, Matthew 10:34

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. You know very well G-d is not about to go killing people, outside of His Judgment.

The Bible disagrees with you on this

If you seek to learn anything on this topic, you need to apply yourself to seeing why God's Judgments are right. This can be quite challenging, and it is not the place for a novice to start.

Again, you have answered none of my questions.

 

[Sophrosyne]

God can do as he wishes with his creation. I will outright say God has killed children a few times. He has (as far as I can see) commanded the destruction of an entire people (race?) which include tossing live babies into the rocks (non believers love this for sure). The greatest destruction of children was Noah's ark when God flooded the earth and wiped out perhaps millions of children (we don't know how many). As a righteous and perfect judge and creator of all God can see those who would be evil, teach their children to do evil, and not give them a chance to do so.
I contend most people if they could know and see the future where an 8 year old boy walked into a mall and opened fire with a machine gun killing over 100 that if they were at that mall knowing he would shoot and had a gun they would have a difficult time with it. Some would shoot the child and kill him before he started, others would wait till he opened fire, and some wouldn't harm the child and let the 100 perish. God has been all three of these examples throughout the bible.

 

[jay1]

God can do as he wishes with his creation. I will outright say God has killed children a few times. He has (as far as I can see) commanded the destruction of an entire people (race?) which include tossing live babies into the rocks (non believers love this for sure). The greatest destruction of children was Noah's ark when God flooded the earth and wiped out perhaps millions of children (we don't know how many). As a righteous and perfect judge and creator of all God can see those who would be evil, teach their children to do evil, and not give them a chance to do so.
I contend most people if they could know and see the future where an 8 year old boy walked into a mall and opened fire with a machine gun killing over 100 that if they were at that mall knowing he would shoot and had a gun they would have a difficult time with it. Some would shoot the child and kill him before he started, others would wait till he opened fire, and some wouldn't harm the child and let the 100 perish. God has been all three of these examples throughout the bible.

So, you believe that God was right to kill 42 children with bears because they ridiculed a bald man? Ridiculed, not shot at.

Would you support this if it was your children?

Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek" ,"Thou shalt not Kill"?

 

[Sophrosyne]

So, you believe that God was right to kill 42 children with bears because they ridiculed a bald man? Ridiculed, not shot at.

The story of Noah far goes beyond 42 children.

Would you support this if it was your children?

I am not a perfect Judge nor have I been put in a situation like this but I do know that there are gangs of children killing and murdering that the police at times have to kill to stop them.

Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek" ,"Thou shalt not Kill"?

turn the other cheek relates to insults against us, it also equates to God's right of vengeance but we only have two cheeks there is a time when enough is enough, Christians are not told to allow evil to persists unopposed forever.
As far as "thou shall not kill" that is not the proper translation according to our society, it should be "don't murder". Killing is acceptable when proper Judgment is issued and sentence upon those guilty is passed. Killing is also justified to preserve life. It is quite possible the children harassing the "bald man" were throwing large rocks at him approaching the point of stoning him to death and he ran out of bloody cheeks and said... enough is enough. It is also possible that God saw through their ridicule and it was not against the man but at God they were ridiculing and God says... "I will not be mocked". Turn the other cheek was not revealed until the New Testament.

 

[jay1]

The story of Noah far goes beyond 42 children.

So, the God who apparently loves us is a mass murderer?

I am not a perfect Judge nor have I been put in a situation like this but I do know that there are gangs of children killing and murdering that the police at times have to kill to stop them.

Surely God in his infinite mercy and power could have found another way. I would argue that if you destroy something so readily that you don't love it. What do you think?

turn the other cheek relates to insults against us, it also equates to God's right of vengeance but we only have two cheeks there is a time when enough is enough, Christians are not told to allow evil to persists unopposed forever.
As far as "thou shall not kill" that is not the proper translation according to our society, it should be "don't murder".

Are you saying that the infallible word of God needs re-translating?

Killing is acceptable when proper Judgment is issued and sentence upon those guilty is passed. Killing is also justified to preserve life. It is quite possible the children harassing the "bald man" were throwing large rocks at him approaching the point of stoning him to death and he ran out of bloody cheeks and said... enough is enough.

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2 Kings 2:23


Every word of God is flawless; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
- Proverbs 30:5-6

They were not throwing stones

It is also possible that God saw through their ridicule and it was not against the man but at God they were ridiculing and God says... "I will not be mocked". Turn the other cheek was not revealed until the New Testament.

Are you saying God is bald?

God must have known about the New Testament because he is omniscient.

There was a Christian sect in the 2nd century that believed the God of the OT was evil. What do you think of that ?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

If I were betting man I would say that story about the bears was a myth** and never took place historically to begin with. People don't actually have Animal Summoning II spells to conjure up bears with like in Dungeons and Dragons. If they did they would have to be increadibly evil to use it on children simply for making fun of their hair.

**Probably has an allegorical meaning as well. The bears represent x, the children represent y, etc...

 

[Ash Crimson]

The bear story is easy. God never did it. All it says is that Elisha cursed the children in the name of the LORD and they were mauled. The moral of the story: Don't curse people because it actually works. Those are my thoughts. James reiterates this truth when he tells believers to not engage in cursing men made in the image of God.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Don't curse people because it actually works.

Interesting. I never thought of it in that light.

 

[Ash Crimson]

Interesting. I never thought of it in that light.

That's how I read it. Otherwise, if taken as some act of God, which strangely never mentions God anyway, the whole story just falls apart and confuses both believer and atheist alike.

 

[jay1]

That's how I read it. Otherwise, if taken as some act of God, which strangely never mentions God anyway, the whole story just falls apart and confuses both believer and atheist alike.

That is definitely one way of looking at it but what if the murder of children is directed by God?

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

How can this be reconciled with a loving God?

 

[Ash Crimson]

That is definitely one way of looking at it but what if the murder of children is directed by God?

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

How can this be reconciled with a loving God?

That didn't happen. If I recall correctly, that story in Ezekiel was about a spiritual judgment on the Jews then, not a literal massacre. I wouldn't take that passage literally. The prophetic books contain visions and metaphors.

 

[AgapeGrace]

My personal opinion is it's not right to kill anyone. But unfortunately this is where I struggle with faith.

 

[jay1]

That didn't happen. If I recall correctly, that story in Ezekiel was about a spiritual judgment on the Jews then, not a literal massacre. I wouldn't take that passage literally. The prophetic books contain visions and metaphors.

Can you prove it was non-literal. Not trying to get at you in any way just interested in learning more.

However there are many other examples of massacres in the bible, as one contributor pointed out, for example the flood. I personally don't believe any of the bible is true, but assuming it is and these things happened, how can you say that God loves you?

 

[jay1]

My personal opinion is it's not right to kill anyone. But unfortunately this is where I struggle with faith.

At last a Christian with a Christian attitude. At least you are not trying to defend this as others have tried to do. Well, not just defend but condone.

Why do you feel that you need a faith? could you be a good person without it?

 

[Ash Crimson]

Can you prove it was non-literal. Not trying to get at you in any way just interested in learning more.

However there are many other examples of massacres in the bible, as one contributor pointed out, for example the flood. I personally don't believe any of the bible is true, but assuming it is and these things happened, how can you say that God loves you?

Can you prove that such a slaughter ever took place?

The flood... can be explained in many ways. It could have been the flood was to wipe out the Nephilim. It could have been the flood was not a literal, global flood, but rather a local one (science shows no evidence for a literal, worldwide flood despite what some 6 day creationists may say) or it could even be the result of another spiritual entity entirely; see Revelation chapter 12. The dragon there also caused a flood, if you did not know.

Assuming there was a global flood, contrary to all evidence - which is possible, but highly unlikely, then I would bank on it being to exterminate the Nephilim, not man. Humans mere got caught up in the middle of that. Whether people like it or not, there is evil out there, in addition to good. Man is caught up in a cosmic battle between good and evil and is entirely ignorant of his world being a spiritual playground or minefield, more fittingly, between these two spiritual forces.

 

[Publius]

So you do agree that it was right for 42 "little children" to be killed to protect the prophet.

Yep, even if your claim that they were "little children" is true.

If God is truly omnipotent then surely the prophet should not have feared anything, he would have had the protection of God.

Looks like he did have the protection of God.

What kind of loving religion is it when people like yourself, adherents, agree with killing children?

First of all, you keep saying "children" in order to evoke an emotional response when the facts are that they were not children.

Second, who said it's a "loving religion"? It includes love, but that isn't all it is.

Do you have children?

Yep. Seven little tax deductions.

Would you like it if this had happened to your children for calling someone bald?

No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even like it if it happened to them for threatening to harm one of God's prophets, but I would understand that actions have consequences.

Being Human and thinking allows me to say that it is immoral, killing children is wrong.

Being human and thinking allows me to say that it isn't. Now, why should we believe your opinion over mine? How does merely "being human and thinking" give you the authority to declare what is moral or immoral?

The commandment says "thou shalt not kill" yet killing 42 little children is okay

Actually, the Bible says "thou shalt do no murder", not "thou shalt not kill".

Quite a large contradiction given that the commandments are the top rules in Christianity.

It's only a contradiction if you believe that "murder" includes capital punishment.

Giving examples of immorality from the Bible is easy, it's full of them. If you really want examples then i could give them to you.

Yes, I really want to see you give examples. That's why I asked.

Given the old and new covenant and that the old no longer applies. Why is the OT still packaged with the NT?

Because it is God's Word and is necessary for understanding the New Testament.

Quite poor character if you ask me.

And you base this on what?

He could have used the bears to scare away the children but no he killed them.

Again, not children.

Yes, God used the bears to kill the men and protect His prophet.

You're God (when reading the OT) is a bully, a murderer and a mysoginist.

First of all, I'm not God.

Second, how can God be a murderer when God has the authority to take life?

Third, the misogyny charge is a new one. Do you have examples? Do you believe women are portrayed positively or negatively in the stories of Rahab, Deborah, Ruth and Esther, and the "Proverbs 31 Woman"?

Consider his character illustrated, and you,, agreeing with killing children should consider your character illustrated

What's wrong with it? See above were you agree that killing children is right. That's what wrong!!

That doesn't explain what's wrong with it or why it's wrong, only that you think my opinion is wrong.

Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do a bad thing requires religion

So, are you a good person or a bad person?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Are you saying God is bald?

God must have known about the New Testament because he is omniscient.

There was a Christian sect in the 2nd century that believed the God of the OT was evil. What do you think of that ?

If you don't like my explanation of mocking God's prophets is akin to mocking him and death to children is not out of the question then you don't have to like it but it is the way back then. Throughout history people have killed another because of insults and it was not called murder.
I would say a group that calls God of the OT evil is not Christian therefore calling them so is invalid. There are many Christians that have problems reconciling the stark differences in the Old Testament with the New Testament but typically if you reflect that it is a change of covenants that changes the way God deals with man that is the difference.

 

[jay1]

Can you prove that such a slaughter ever took place?

Not an attack just wondering if you know of any biblical scholar who speaks about this.

The flood... can be explained in many ways. It could have been the flood was to wipe out the Nephilim. It could have been the flood was not a literal, global flood, but rather a local one (science shows no evidence for a literal, worldwide flood despite what some 6 day creationists may say) or it could even be the result of another spiritual entity entirely; see Revelation chapter 12. The dragon there also caused a flood, if you did not know.

Yes, but if God is the ultimate power then why do it at all?

Assuming there was a global flood, contrary to all evidence - which is possible, but highly unlikely, then I would bank on it being to exterminate the Nephilim, not man. Humans mere got caught up in the middle of that. Whether people like it or not, there is evil out there, in addition to good. Man is caught up in a cosmic battle between good and evil and is entirely ignorant of his world being a spiritual playground or minefield, more fittingly, between these two spiritual forces.

Even getting caught in the middle is no excuse. Everything is God's creation and he has the power of life and death over everything, then why not just have his intended targets die? Why the innocent bystanders?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Does it hurt Gods feelings when He is mocked and cause Him to lash out in anger? Sounds like something an emotionally immature person would do rather than God. Especially if you are talking about the God who tells us to turn the other cheek and who urges us to love our enemies so we can be like Him. Getting yourself in a murders rage because children called you "baldy" is a pretty low standard of behavior for a human let alone a God. I really would expect more from Him.

 

[Ash Crimson]

Even getting caught in the middle is no excuse. Everything is God's creation and he has the power of life and death over everything, then why not just have his intended targets die? Why the innocent bystanders?

I think you misunderstand God's power. God is more powerful than any human, but if you think He can control every person like a puppet or that He wills all that happens into existence, you are definitely mistaken. Sometimes, as awful as it is, in war there is collateral damage and the loss of innocent life. It is an unfortunate part of living in this world. If you think God should have stepped in then and magically protected everyone then, then why not ask why He doesn't magically step in and stop every single death, rape and accident in this life? In your view, He can stop this but does not. So He is cruel. I don't think that is at all how things actually are. God's omnipotence is the cause of much confusion and slander. As a believer, I'd sooner concede that God is good and loving and not as "all-powerful" as some Christians put it and would like us to believe, than to believe He is able to magically stop every evil, yet does nothing and is therefore, evil and cruel.

Listen well: God is good.

If you can take nothing away from our discussion but one thing, remember that one statement please.