Killer of Abortionist: Martyr?

[cbk]

Five times you mentioned flesh when I would be led to think that Christians believe the soul is the important issue. Why are you so obsessed with flesh just because it houses a human being? We eat flesh, wear flesh, sit on flesh, walk on flesh, and stuff flesh and mount it on walls. Why is it so special if it's human? It's a container for the important part, the soul.

You neglected to answer anything else I asked you and focused on FLESH to the extreme. Yes, if someone shot me they would not kill me, just my body. I can't die and neither can you or they. Would that be okay with me, yes it would. I have no fear of death for it's merely a transition to another experience, it's apparently Christian's who are terrified of dying because they threaten everyone with abominable things to come if they don't obey the God the Christians obey.

In regards to the flesh, the Christian soul is JUDGED by what this soul does WHILE IN the flesh.... Are not the acts of the soul manifested IN the flesh.... Christians are not afraid of dying in as much as they are the JUDGEMENT of the SOUL by what the SOUL has done IN the FLESH...

Evil is in the world, and Christians will put up the GOOD fight against such evils, not to protect us in the flesh, but to protect the souls of our children and future generations who will be taught that EVIL IS GOOD by those who do not believe in a judgement of the soul.... In believing that EVIL IS GOOD, their souls will come under judgement for the evil they do in the flesh that is not in accordance with the will of God...

Yes, if your flesh dies, then your soul continues.... In this regard, I don't know where you believe your soul goes or if you have a choice in the matter, but Christians believe in a judgement. Therefore, Christians will resist evil to keep it from affecting future generations and those souls who are easily mislead in the flesh....

Ask again the questions I have not addressed and we will tarry, but you must understand that Christians deal with the flesh because while in the flesh it is one of two battlegrounds for the soul.

 

[iesousfreak]

It IS contradictory IF the sole criteria for making your conclusion is whether someone is living or not, but when you factor in GUILTY and INNOCENT in regards to crime, then there is no contradiction. The Bible is clear that the STATE reserves the right to execute individuals who are guilty of certain crime -- this is the right of the state given to them by GOD to maintain law and order. God has not given this right to individuals, however, therefore Hill deserved to die.

Likewise, neither the state nor an individual has the right in the eyes of God to execute the innocent.

Therefore, I, like you see THREE wrongs: The abortions and the murder of the abortionist, as the first two. The third wrong is the STATE allowing abortions to happen. Hill, IMO, deserved to die for he acted as an individual in executing what he perceived as justice.....

Sadly, it SHOULD HAVE BEEN the state that executed the abortion doctor and not Hill.

Ok... that being understood...

Does God agree with OUR government? you have to admit that our gov is not the most perfect or "innocent"... i sometimes see it as pompus to other nations... but thats besides the point.

the supreme court has made decisions such as roe vs. wade that leads us into all this mess... why would God, then, give such a powerful authority as capital punishment to a government that allows abortions??

 

[cbk]

Ok... that being understood...

Does God agree with OUR government? you have to admit that our gov is not the most perfect or "innocent"... i sometimes see it as pompus to other nations... but thats besides the point.

the supreme court has made decisions such as roe vs. wade that leads us into all this mess... why would God, then, give such a powerful authority as capital punishment to a government that allows abortions??

1. Does God agree with OUR government? I seriously doubt that he does. Ours is a government OF the PEOPLE and by the PEOPLE. In essence, the voters are the leaders and those who serve in office are OUR 'servants'. Sometimes, we see it the other way around.

As such, as the people 'change' within our system and place servants into position who are, in the eyes of God, wicked, then we, the people have only ourselves to blame... Potentially, the system can be good or bad, but it depends on the voters, moreso than the servants.

2. Capital punishment was 'given' to this country well before abortion. And, abortion has been allowed to continue because the people have chosen it. I seriously doubt that God approves of such murders as abortion that kills an innocent for the sake of easing the burdens of certain adults. IMO, judgement will fall upon those who support, aid, and partake in this unjust murders.

But, as far as, why does He allow this and not that? We must remember, that in His time, judgement will come and we will know that He does not allow unjust deeds to go unpunished.

"Oh shine no more, 'yon setting sun on this dry and gall-filled land,
But on last ray, carry me away where the hourglass has no sand.
Where the poets weep, the angels reap, and the saints all make the stand
To avenge lost breath with the SECOND death to those who lent a hand."

 

[iesousfreak]

muchos thankyou's, cbk...

by the way... what about abortion if it involved a rape or incestual abuse victim? or if at the time the women pregnant, at the time of conception, didnt know she was pregnant and had been takeing all these medication to treat an illness is told that the child has little chance of leading a normal life... what about abortion in those circumstances?

 

[cbk]

muchos thankyou's, cbk...

by the way... what about abortion if it involved a rape or incestual abuse victim? or if at the time the women pregnant, at the time of conception, didnt know she was pregnant and had been takeing all these medication to treat an illness is told that the child has little chance of leading a normal life... what about abortion in those circumstances?

Rape -- have the baby... If you want it to be given away, then do it...
Insest -- have the baby... If you want it to be given away, then do it...
Abnormal -- have the baby... If you want it to be given away, then do it...

In the first two, society should punish the abuser far more than what we do today -- castration or death, if necessary to send the message to males that females will be protected. In this way, the child and the mother will both receive greater protection in society, and the death of some criminals may serve as witness and a deterant to those who entertain evil thought.

 

[Nathan Poe]

1. Does God agree with OUR government? I seriously doubt that he does. Ours is a government OF the PEOPLE and by the PEOPLE. In essence, the voters are the leaders and those who serve in office are OUR 'servants'. Sometimes, we see it the other way around.

A truly remarkable system, unique in the world.

As such, as the people 'change' within our system and place servants into position who are, in the eyes of God, wicked, then we, the people have only ourselves to blame... Potentially, the system can be good or bad, but it depends on the voters, moreso than the servants.

We get what we ask for, and occasionally what we deserve.

Can you suggest a better system?

2. Capital punishment was 'given' to this country well before abortion. And, abortion has been allowed to continue because the people have chosen it. I seriously doubt that God approves of such murders as abortion that kills an innocent for the sake of easing the burdens of certain adults. IMO, judgement will fall upon those who support, aid, and partake in this unjust murders.

Capital punishement is hardly unique to the US, and was a fact of life in just about every civilization, including Biblical ones. But the people have spoken, and they don't seem to have a problem with abortion.

But, as far as, why does He allow this and not that? We must remember, that in His time, judgement will come and we will know that He does not allow unjust deeds to go unpunished.

and He seems to be taking His own time...

 

[cbk]

A truly remarkable system, unique in the world.


We get what we ask for, and occasionally what we deserve.

Can you suggest a better system?



Capital punishement is hardly unique to the US, and was a fact of life in just about every civilization, including Biblical ones. But the people have spoken, and they don't seem to have a problem with abortion.


and He seems to be taking His own time...

Unique -- I agree.
Get what we ask for -- I agree.
Better system? -- Can't think of one, nor was I 'slamming' ours.
Capital punishment is hardly unique -- I agree.
BUT....don't have a problem with abortion -- Abortion and capital punishment are not the same thing.... Capital punishment is for criminals... There are other terms for killing the innocent of any or one particular group of people.

 

[Godzman]

I am against abortion but Hill is no martyr, he is a murderer, he decided to abort a life to, he is just as guilty as the people who perform and allow abortions

 

[Nathan Poe]

Unique -- I agree.
Get what we ask for -- I agree.
Better system? -- Can't think of one, nor was I 'slamming' ours.
Capital punishment is hardly unique -- I agree.
BUT....don't have a problem with abortion -- Abortion and capital punishment are not the same thing.... Capital punishment is for criminals... There are other terms for killing the innocent of any or one particular group of people.

My point was that the people decided that abortion is not a capital crime. If they're wrong, and you certainly believe that they are, then God will deal with it in his time.

Which means that Hill, thinking either that God chose him to start shooting, or that perhaps God was dragging His feet on the matter, decided to play "Angel of Death."

Does God approve of mere humans trying to fast-forward His timetable?

 

[cbk]

My point was that the people decided that abortion is not a capital crime. If they're wrong, and you certainly believe that they are, then God will deal with it in his time.

Which means that Hill, thinking either that God chose him to start shooting, or that perhaps God was dragging His feet on the matter, decided to play "Angel of Death."

Does God approve of mere humans trying to fast-forward His timetable?

I agree that Hill played the "Angel of Death". But, in regards to fast-forwarding God's timetable, I take it that you do not believe that God sometimes uses ONE man to bring forth his Will on others in a way that is violent? That he must rouse a large number of peoples or armies to make it just or definable as God's Will in the eyes of man?

Take Samson, for instance, in the Old Testament. Did not God give Samson, one man, the power to inflict pain, suffering, and death upon others who were doing evil in the eyes of God? And, in the end, Samson too died from the acts of his own hands. He lived by the sword and died by the sword.

Look at slavery in America. It too was approved by the people, for it was law in many states. Yet, today, it does not exist due to the acts of a few individuals (ie, John Brown) that helped to move the fighting from Washington, D.C., to the battlefield.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I agree that Hill played the "Angel of Death". But, in regards to fast-forwarding God's timetable, I take it that you do not believe that God sometimes uses ONE man to bring forth his Will on others in a way that is violent? That he must rouse a large number of peoples or armies to make it just or definable as God's Will in the eyes of man?

Take Samson, for instance, in the Old Testament. Did not God give Samson, one man, the power to inflict pain, suffering, and death upon others who were doing evil in the eyes of God? And, in the end, Samson too died from the acts of his own hands. He lived by the sword and died by the sword.

Indeed, and Sampson's great strength was symbolic of the power of God. He was able to do things no ordinary human could have because God's power was manifest in him.

Hill had no such miracles to support him. He had a gun. Any psychopath can take a gun and start shooting whomever they please, and claim after the fact that they were doing God's will, which, coincidentally, always coincides with their own.

Besides, if Hill had been chosen by God, then God used him to shoot a doctor and a bodyguard (and I'd love to hear what grevious sins the bodyguard committed), and then abandoned him to man's justice system, which promptly returned the death he chose to deal out.

From this side of the looking-glass, it's hard to tell the difference between a martyr's death and a common criminal's. You'd think God would clear that up...

Look at slavery in America. It too was approved by the people, for it was law in many states. Yet, today, it does not exist due to the acts of a few individuals (ie, John Brown) that helped to move the fighting from Washington, D.C., to the battlefield.

And we can look at Brown now and say that he committed illegal acts for a goo dcause. That certainly didn't make them legal. In hindsight, we can understand and even applaud Brown's dedication, but he, like Hill, got the execution he deserved at the time for his actions.
It's not worth crawling through a sewer to catch a rat.

We can go even further than that: men like Washington, Jefferson, and Adams were branded as traitors to their country, but today we call them heroes. Had the US lost the revolution, these men would still be traitors.
Because history books are written by winners with the blood of the losers.

It may very well be that some day, should abortion be outlawed, men like Hill will be seen as heroes. But a martyr? Hill set out to kill for what he believed in; I doubt that dying for it was part of his plan.
But that day, if it ever comes, will be many years from now, long after we're gone. And the facts become whatever the winners say they are.

Hindsight is always 20/20
Abortion stays legal = Hill was a criminal
Abortion is outlawed = Hill was a hero

 

[Susan]

I believe that coldblooded murder is never in the will of God. If God doesn't choose to intervene to protect a life, that still does not justify the taking of said life as His will.

 

[cbk]

Hindsight is always 20/20
Abortion stays legal = Hill was a criminal
Abortion is outlawed = Hill was a hero

You are correct in what you say, IMO

 

[whitestar]

Hill was an idot. He apparently did not truly understand the bible teachings and certain broke several major commandments doing what he did. I saw him on TV saying he wasn't worried about dying cause he would be in Heaven with God...yea....I bet he was really shocked when God told him this was not only wrong, it was not what God wants any of us to do. This guy must be living in the OT, an eye for an eye....Jesus says to love each other as He has loved us. Do you love someone by killing them?

What he did also made no sense at all. He says life is precious and not to kill the unborn...yet he kills? How much sense does that make? none.

God bless
whitestar

 

[Nathan Poe]

You are correct in what you say, IMO

Of course. Moral "truth" is relative.

 

[cbk]

What he did also made no sense at all. He says life is precious and not to kill the unborn...yet he kills? How much sense does that make? none.

God bless
whitestar

Question: Do you see a difference between the killing that an American soldier in Iraq does and the killing an abortionist does???

And, why to you believe so?

 

[cbk]

Of course. Moral "truth" is relative.

ONLY in the eyes of MAN.

 

[Nathan Poe]

ONLY in the eyes of MAN.

Precisely. Now go check the mirror and tell me what you see. Man or God?

 

[cbk]

Precisely. Now go check the mirror and tell me what you see. Man or God?

A man who sees 100% God is either a liar, hypocrite, or 100% holy. True, man was made in God's image, however, we have digressed into sin.

 

[Nathan Poe]

A man who sees 100% God is either a liar, hypocrite, or 100% holy. True, man was made in God's image, however, we have digressed into sin.

And if that is so, then that includes all men. Even me. Even you.


Hill is a criminal because we said he was. Abortionists are innocent becasue we (I'm speaking in terms of the criminal justice system) say they are.
Abortion is legal; shooting people in the streets is not.

It may be that some time in the future, abortion will be outlawed and men like Hill will be seen as heroes. Or maybe never. Perceptions, human perceptions, of right and wrong will change, and whoever's writing the history books then will note that change.

And human perceptions are all we have to work with. What does God think? I'm not arrogant enough to claim to know. I can no more see the world through the eyes of God than I could see it through the eyes of a rainbow trout.
I'm a human in a human world. Human perceptions will have to do.