Keep city as white 'as much as possible,' council candidate says, stunning forum in Michigan

[Ana the Ist]

Why wouldn't they?

Because we can't draw conclusions about the motives of large groups of people based on the personal experience of individuals.

Your personal experience led to different conclusions than mine....so who is correct?

It's like an employer stating that he doesn't hire blacks because the few he has hired were lazy....therefore they're all lazy. Well even if the people you knew moved for racist reasons....it would be wrong to conclude that anyone else does the same.

 

[rambot]

While I appreciate the use of sources, the abstract you provided is discussing data that is almost 20 years old; that's old.

I think the social dynamics may have changed in that time. I'd wanna see newer data. Intriguing abstract tho...

 

[essentialsaltes]

No chance they're going for this aesthetic right?

Sadly, no. But I love Oia.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Keep city as white 'as much as possible,' council candidate says, stunning forum in Michigan


Women like these demonstrate how attitudes and practices that propped up housing discrimination (and the wealth gap) are still alive today. Kudos to those who spoke out against her; Cramer realizes her time is up, so we'll see more of this flailing as their power and numbers dwindle.

It's mega late and so I'm not reading through the whole thread to see if this update has already been shared, and just posting it in case it hasn't been.
Candidate who wanted city as white ‘as possible’ ends run

My thoughts on her leaving the race.....

Spoiler: are summed up by the most frequent line in this.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Right....you spoke with every person who left whatever city you lived in as a child and they were all leaving because of racism....sure.

I remember when my parents left a city for the suburbs...I was a child too. They left a city with a large black community for a suburb that was mostly white. They left because they were able to afford a much larger home for the same cost, cleaner neighborhoods, less crime, and better schools. I can't recall either of my parents ever saying anything racist about non-whites...quite the opposite actually. They made sure that me and my sister understood what racism is, why it's wrong, and that they would not tolerate it...long before we left the city.

Of course, my parents were probably the only non-racist whites in the nation.

As the authors of that paper point out, studying the pre-war period removes some of these complexities. There were no suburbs at the time to which to flee, so flight happened within a city, where some of these factors remained constant.

 

[variant]

Because we can't draw conclusions about the motives of large groups of people based on the personal experience of individuals.

Your personal experience led to different conclusions than mine....so who is correct?

It's like an employer stating that he doesn't hire blacks because the few he has hired were lazy....therefore they're all lazy. Well even if the people you knew moved for racist reasons....it would be wrong to conclude that anyone else does the same.

Um, you can definitely ask people. Or, you know, even look into the known causes for the phenomena. It's not a mystery, it's been studied to death.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Um, you can definitely ask people. Or, you know, even look into the known causes for the phenomena. It's not a mystery, it's been studied to death.

And there's a significant difference of opinion on how much of it was racial and how much was economic.

More importantly though....we don't make the same negative assumptions about blacks or latinos or asians when they self segregate, even though they do.

 

[iluvatar5150]

More importantly though....we don't make the same negative assumptions about blacks or latinos or asians when they self segregate, even though they do.

That's because those groups didn't set up a whole bunch of legal, professional, and social systems to keep other "lesser" groups out. The acts of white flight alleged to be racist coincided with and were preceded by a whole bunch of other sorts of attempts by white people to prevent blacks from living in their neighborhoods. It's not like these assumptions of racism are pulled out of thin air.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's because those groups didn't set up a whole bunch of legal, professional, and social systems to keep other "lesser" groups out.

Neither did any white people today or 99.99999% of white people in history.

The fact is whether it's white people grouping together, or black people grouping together, we're talking about the same behavior.

I think it's got less to do with historical segregation than it does the fact that you, and many like you, don't see racist attitudes or beliefs towards whites as a matter of significance or concern. As you put it...."it's punching up". So when black people group together because they prefer to be around black people...it's not an issue to you the way it is when white people do it.

That leaves us more or less unable to have a conversation about this. I see two groups doing the same thing as equally engaging in the same behavior. You apparently, don't.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Neither did any white people today or 99.99999% of white people in history.

The fact is whether it's white people grouping together, or black people grouping together, we're talking about the same behavior.

I think it's got less to do with historical segregation than it does the fact that you, and many like you, don't see racist attitudes or beliefs towards whites as a matter of significance or concern. As you put it...."it's punching up". So when black people group together because they prefer to be around black people...it's not an issue to you the way it is when white people do it.

That leaves us more or less unable to have a conversation about this. I see two groups doing the same thing as equally engaging in the same behavior. You apparently, don't.

No, what I see (and what the data seems to support) is more than what you apparently want to acknowledge.

What you see is people who are moving for perfectly normal, natural reasons like jobs, schools, etc choosing to move to neighborhoods that fit the demographic profile they prefer. If that was all there was to it, I would agree with you.

But what the rest of us are talking about is, as soon as a black family moves in, the white residents pull one of these:

If what you describe was all there was to it, then blockbusting could not have happened. If white people weren't running away scared, there would have been no way for anybody to have profiteered from their running away scared. But blockbusting was a very real thing, er go...

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, what I see (and what the data seems to support) is more than what you apparently want to acknowledge.

What is your argument? That people were more racist back in the days of segregation?

I'd agree with that.

What you see is people who are moving for perfectly normal, natural reasons like jobs, schools, etc choosing to move to neighborhoods that fit the demographic profile they prefer. If that was all there was to it, I would agree with you.

But what the rest of us are talking about is, as soon as a black family moves in, the white residents pull one of these:

If what you describe was all there was to it, then blockbusting could not have happened. If white people weren't running away scared, there would have been no way for anybody to have profiteered from their running away scared. But blockbusting was a very real thing, er go...

According to you....sometimes as much as 10 years later. 10 years seems like a long time to hang onto a racial motive for moving. A lot can happen in 10 years lol. Why would we assume the motives of anyone who moves more than a year or two after the fact?

Let's talk briefly about racism....the original understanding of the idea. The idea that one race is superior to another. Most people remember that this idea was attached to both physical and intellectual aspects of a person. The idea that one race is smarter than another, or stronger than another, etc. You do remember that it's also attached to moral aspects as well, right? The idea that one race is morally better than another is racist.

It's easy to identify that when people say "this race is more prone to crime" or "that race is more sexually promiscuous". There does seem to be a blindspot however, when we talk about other moral aspects of people. For example, I've seen a lot of people imply that whites are "more racist" or "more xenophobic" or "more bigoted" than other races.

So before we continue....I'd like to be clear that isn't what you're trying to imply. I'd like to see you affirm the idea that whites are no more racist than any other race. That morally speaking....we are equals in regards to race.

You'd agree with that....right?

 

[SummerMadness]

If what you describe was all there was to it, then blockbusting could not have happened. If white people weren't running away scared, there would have been no way for anybody to have profiteered from their running away scared. But blockbusting was a very real thing, er go...

It's not only blockbusting, but attitudes about living around people of another race. While Blacks and Hispanics will look at homes in community that has a certain level of diversity, whites look for homes in less diverse communities than those they say they'd like to live in. As a result, the places they live in are whiter.

In The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America, when Black people are comfortable with a community that becomes increasingly white up to about 50%. For white people, they are comfortable with a community that becomes increasingly Black up to 10%. This disparate level of comfort is one reason why white flight is still an ongoing issue.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's not only blockbusting, but attitudes about living around people of another race. While Blacks and Hispanics will look at homes in community that has a certain level of diversity, whites look for homes in less diverse communities than those they say they'd like to live in. As a result, the places they live in are whiter.

In The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America, when Black people are comfortable with a community that becomes increasingly white up to about 50%. For white people, they are comfortable with a community that becomes increasingly Black up to 10%. This disparate level of comfort is one reason why white flight is still an ongoing issue.

A prime example of what I was talking about in post #71.

 

[iluvatar5150]

What is your argument?

That your apparent handwaving away of racialized white flight isn't accurate.

According to you....sometimes as much as 10 years later. 10 years seems like a long time to hang onto a racial motive for moving. A lot can happen in 10 years lol. Why would we assume the motives of anyone who moves more than a year or two after the fact?

Let's talk briefly about racism....the original understanding of the idea. The idea that one race is superior to another. Most people remember that this idea was attached to both physical and intellectual aspects of a person. The idea that one race is smarter than another, or stronger than another, etc. You do remember that it's also attached to moral aspects as well, right? The idea that one race is morally better than another is racist.

It's easy to identify that when people say "this race is more prone to crime" or "that race is more sexually promiscuous". There does seem to be a blindspot however, when we talk about other moral aspects of people. For example, I've seen a lot of people imply that whites are "more racist" or "more xenophobic" or "more bigoted" than other races.

So before we continue....I'd like to be clear that isn't what you're trying to imply. I'd like to see you affirm the idea that whites are no more racist than any other race. That morally speaking....we are equals in regards to race.

You'd agree with that....right?

I have no idea what the data shows. On a global scale, I imagine people are roughly equal in their capacity for bigotry, but I suspect that bigotry is rather contextual and manifests itself in different ways in different times and places. There are always ways in which to define an out-group. Sometimes that will be along racial lines; sometimes it'll be something else.

In the US, over the course of its entire history, white people basically started the racism train and have been the group most effective at institutionalizing it.

 

[rambot]

That your apparent handwaving away of racialized white flight isn't accurate.



I have no idea what the data shows. On a global scale, I imagine people are roughly equal in their capacity for bigotry, but I suspect that bigotry is rather contextual and manifests itself in different ways in different times and places. There are always ways in which to define an out-group. Sometimes that will be along racial lines; sometimes it'll be something else.

In the US, over the course of its entire history, white people basically started the racism train and have been the group most effective at institutionalizing it.

There's no doubt that Europeans have consistently considered themselves superior to other groups; from the explorers during the rennaisance the eugenics movements of the early 20th century.

My personal opinion is that each society DOES have a group that tends to be more prejudice and it is (and logically it makes sense) the majority/power group. My experience of living in South Korea bears that out well.

I don't know if I'd agree white people have a genetic disposition towards it or anything but power but white people have certainly exhibited a strong racist bent throughout history and in American history....well... You know.
In the same vein, you'd find racist Chinese or Japanese people in their countries primarily too.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I have no idea what the data shows. On a global scale, I imagine people are roughly equal in their capacity for bigotry, but I suspect that bigotry is rather contextual and manifests itself in different ways in different times and places. There are always ways in which to define an out-group. Sometimes that will be along racial lines; sometimes it'll be something else.

In the US, over the course of its entire history, white people basically started the racism train and have been the group most effective at institutionalizing it.

The data shows that black people commit an inordinate amount of violent crimes than other races....but it would be wrong to translate that data into some racist moral failure blacks, right? I can't tell some black person that it's somehow their responsibility to "fix" this or that it's somehow their responsibility, right?

It doesn't matter "what the data says"...it would be wrong to generalize morality along racial lines....right? Is that easier to agree with?

 

[Ana the Ist]

My personal opinion is that each society DOES have a group that tends to be more prejudice and it is (and logically it makes sense) the majority/power group. My experience of living in South Korea bears that out well..

Then it doesn't have anything to do with race. If your opinion is true (and I don't think it is, but let's assume) then if blacks and whites were reversed and black Europeans had gathered white slaves from Africa, we'd expect things to play out exactly the same....right?

 

[Ana the Ist]

There's no doubt that Europeans have consistently considered themselves superior to other groups; from the explorers during the rennaisance the eugenics movements of the early 20th century.

My personal opinion is that each society DOES have a group that tends to be more prejudice and it is (and logically it makes sense) the majority/power group. My experience of living in South Korea bears that out well.

I don't know if I'd agree white people have a genetic disposition towards it or anything but power but white people have certainly exhibited a strong racist bent throughout history and in American history....well... You know.
In the same vein, you'd find racist Chinese or Japanese people in their countries primarily too.

And before you ask I'll just explain that the reason I disagree is because power doesn't make someone racist. Racist views/beliefs make someone racist.

I'd imagine that if we took a hardcore racist neo nazi and threw him in jail and solitary confinement....you wouldn't suddenly think "well he's no longer racist". His racism may no longer have the power to affect anyone....but he's still just as racist.

 

[RDKirk]

Ugh...sorry, here's a link to the study itself (I think, it's the same guy same year, but he studies a lot of this stuff). I'm having trouble copying and pasting the pdf, but you can read it yourself or just read the abstract.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

"They find generally modest effects of wealth on these patterns of inter-neighborhood migration."

And...

"The authors conclude that explanations for the racially stratified inter-neighborhood migration streams that underlie and reinforce black-Anglo residential segregation will need to look beyond the influence of wealth and other socioeconomic resources.

So income isn't the issue you think it is. I'm about 99% sure that's the same study.

There's other articles about why blacks don't move into white neighborhoods....but honestly, they contain such a large amount of racist stereotypes about whites that I don't really want to post them and give those racist ideas a platform.

The gist though is that being around whites is such a horribly negative experience for young black children that black parents don't want to put their kids through it...even if it means staying somewhere with worse schools or higher crime. You could imagine the outrage that the opposite of that article would cause....if whites were to stereotype entire black neighborhoods that way....their concerns would be immediately dismissed as racist.

That's part of the reason why this nation can't have a real conversation about race imo.

I presume you've purchased and read the actual study. If so, please provide some of the actual study results.

I've been middle-class black for 65 years, part of an extended family of middle class blacks, and we all associate with middle-class blacks.

Middle class black people look for the same thing in a neighborhood as middle class whites. We want the same things white people want, and we're not going to send our kids to substandard schools just to keep them in a black environment.

My church here in Plano, TX, has 5,000 middle class black members, and almost none of us live in SE Dallas. We're all residents of the suburbs north of Dallas.

Now, in certain cities where there is a large enough black population that there are middle-class and upper-middle class neighborhoods, you're likely to see blacks preferring them. That would be the case in Atlanta and areas of Maryland near DC.

But not many places.

 

[rambot]

And before you ask I'll just explain that the reason I disagree is because power doesn't make someone racist. Racist views/beliefs make someone racist.

I'd imagine that if we took a hardcore racist neo nazi and threw him in jail and solitary confinement....you wouldn't suddenly think "well he's no longer racist". His racism may no longer have the power to affect anyone....but he's still just as racist.

I agree that power is not an intrinsic part of being a racist.

But it is an illusion of power that is used to sell the superiority of one race over another to people flirting with racism. They are made to believe they are being victimized or they should fear the victim group because of their growing power and they need.

With that said a LOT of people have used power to help define racism; a quick Google search supported that. My issue with those definitions is that they address systems and not individual motivations.