Keep city as white 'as much as possible,' council candidate says, stunning forum in Michigan

[SummerMadness]

Is this always the case? Or just a shady practice some might do?

You'll have to forgive me, I live in a smaller city that has always had a mixed community so these things wouldn't occur to me.

Definitely not always the case, but it's something I've seen in large cities. The other time I personally saw something like this occur was in Brooklyn; there is a steel band competition every year this time in the summer, so bands practice in a "pan yard." This has been going on for over three decades now, but a recent resident started calling the police every time they practiced, even going as far as to film them and harass them during practices. Thankfully, she was arrested. Now this doesn't typify all communities, but it is not all that rare either.

Even in my suburban community, you're seeing the bleed of Brooklyn hipsters that are turning a middle class community into something more upscale (although I think house flipping companies have had a more negative impact on suburban areas). For instance, there is now "neighborhood associations" slicing the town up, and I find myself stressing to people, "There are no neighborhoods here, it's just one town." That sense of compartmentalizing and exclusivity has been a real downer. That and the families that could afford to live here before can no longer, especially with flippers buying up all the starter homes and then asking for $100k-$200k more after gutting (read: destroying) them.

 

[cow451]

Why is it wrong to seek to keep a city's homogeneity intact?

Are you serious?

 

[Hank77]

Why is it in principle wrong to keep a city or locale's homogeneity intact?

Would you list the pros of keeping them intact?

 

[Ana the Ist]

??? White flight was an actual thing.

I'm not saying that the migration wasn't a thing. I'm saying that the way it's discussed is suspect. Research shows that every race self segregates....but we only talk about it like it's a racist thing with whites. When it's other communities....we give them excuses/justifications.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not really no. Anti gentrification arguments I have heard tend to focus on how the people who already live there can no longer afford to do so after the process is complete. It is usually an economic complaint.

Really? I've never seen a complaint about gentrification that wasn't about whites moving into a non-white neighborhood.

Can you give me any examples of gentrification by blacks, latinos, asians, etc?

 

[variant]

Really? I've never seen a complaint about gentrification that wasn't about whites moving into a non-white neighborhood.

I didn't say that wasn't usually the case.

Their complaint is still an economic one.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't say that wasn't usually the case.

Their complaint is still an economic one.

Usually? I take it you didn't find any articles about non-white gentrification either.

I'd be more inclined to believe the complaint is economic if it was ever leveled towards a non-white population....but it isn't. Whenever the conversation turns to a minority group moving into an area and bringing money (yes...it happens) the conversation becomes one of two things. They are either "revitalizing" an area....even though the exact same things happen in "gentrification" examples....or they are "investing in the community". It's a totally different conversation that basically ignores poor locals driven out by rising costs.

 

[SummerMadness]

So... I guess we have people defending a woman that wants to keep a community as white as possible. I guess it's about getting back to the old days of the Citizens' Councils.

Maybe she's open to immigrants from Norway.

 

[SummerMadness]

Then we have the other aspect of wanting to keep out foreign-born people, we can only guess where that rhetoric comes from as well as those carrying water for this bigotry.

 

[SummerMadness]

"What Kathy Hayman doesn't know is that her family is in the wrong. (A) husband and wife need to be the same race. Same thing with kids. That's how it’s been from the beginning of, how can I say, when God created the heaven and the earth. He created Adam and Eve at the same time. But as far as me being against blacks, no I'm not."

- Jean Cramer, 2019​

 

[iluvatar5150]

I'm not saying that the migration wasn't a thing. I'm saying that the way it's discussed is suspect. Research shows that every race self segregates....but we only talk about it like it's a racist thing with whites. When it's other communities....we give them excuses/justifications.

It wasn't merely a matter of natural self-segregating. At least here in Baltimore (and I imagine elsewhere, too), blocks were considered white, black, or Jewish (in the hierarchy, Jews were in the middle). For a while, these designations had legal backing. But even after the legal support dissolved, it was still the case that, as soon as a single black family moved into a white block, a significant percentage of whites would up and leave quickly. Whole blocks would turn over within a decade. "Blockbusting" is the profiteering based on this phenomenon.

The WaPo article I linked to in the post you quoted referenced this paper in which researchers attempted to quantify white flight and to establish causality for it. They try to account for self-segregation as well as other factors that affect population (e.g. job booms) but still find white flight being a significant contributor to segregation.

 

[SummerMadness]

It wasn't merely a matter of natural self-segregating. At least here in Baltimore (and I imagine elsewhere, too), blocks were considered white, black, or Jewish (in the hierarchy, Jews were in the middle). For a while, these designations had legal backing. But even after the legal support dissolved, it was still the case that, as soon as a single black family moved into a white block, a significant percentage of whites would up and leave quickly. Whole blocks would turn over within a decade. "Blockbusting" is the profiteering based on this phenomenon.

The WaPo article I linked to in the post you quoted referenced this paper in which researchers attempted to quantify white flight and to establish causality for it. They try to account for self-segregation as well as other factors that affect population (e.g. job booms) but still find white flight being a significant contributor to segregation.

How Real-Estate Brokers Can Profit From Racial Tipping Points

Until 1956, brokers were expected to follow the code of ethics set forth by the National Association of Real Estate Boards: Don't try to sell houses in white neighborhoods to black homebuyers. Full stop.

For more than 30 years, the code read: "A realtor should never be instrumental in introducing into a neighborhood a character of property or occupancy, members of any race or nationality, or any individuals whose presence will clearly be detrimental to property values in that neighborhood."

Such an ethics code helped white homeowners to preserve their all-white neighborhoods in the face of change, especially in the North and West over the course of the Great Migration. Only in 1948, with the Supreme Court's decision in Shelly v. Kraemer, were states prohibited from enforcing these restrictive covenants.

You're correct, it wasn't self-segregating, and even after being made illegal, these practices still continued.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It wasn't merely a matter of natural self-segregating. At least here in Baltimore (and I imagine elsewhere, too), blocks were considered white, black, or Jewish (in the hierarchy, Jews were in the middle). For a while, these designations had legal backing. But even after the legal support dissolved, it was still the case that, as soon as a single black family moved into a white block, a significant percentage of whites would up and leave quickly. Whole blocks would turn over within a decade. "Blockbusting" is the profiteering based on this phenomenon.

The WaPo article I linked to in the post you quoted referenced this paper in which researchers attempted to quantify white flight and to establish causality for it. They try to account for self-segregation as well as other factors that affect population (e.g. job booms) but still find white flight being a significant contributor to segregation.

I can't read the WaPo article.

We can either talk about the migration of large parts of the white population to the suburbs (white flight) or talk about the racist real estate practice of blockbusting....but I'm not going to bounce back and forth between the two and pretend they're the same thing.

Also, what exactly are you hoping to show with that paper? It focuses on pre-WW2 US almost exclusively.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I can't read the WaPo article.

That’s what Incognito Mode and/or alternate browers are for.

We can either talk about the migration of large parts of the white population to the suburbs (white flight) or talk about the racist real estate practice of blockbusting....but I'm not going to bounce back and forth between the two and pretend they're the same thing.

Blockbusting was profiteering off of white flight. They’re not exactly the same thing but they’re not unrelated, either.

Also, what exactly are you hoping to show with that paper? It focuses on pre-WW2 US almost exclusively.

That white flight was real and not merely a natural self-segregation.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That’s what Incognito Mode and/or alternate browers are for.

That used to work for me, but doesn't anymore.

Blockbusting was profiteering off of white flight. They’re not exactly the same thing but they’re not unrelated, either.

Right...it happened, but I don't know how significantly it contributed to white flight.

That white flight was real and not merely a natural self-segregation.

Go back and check my original claim....I never said it wasn't real.

As for self segregation...how would you know that by looking at a time when actual segregation was enforced by law and policy? Let's say that I'm a white person in 1910 who isn't the least bit racist....and I want to move....

What exactly are my options here? This segregated community or that segregated community? If that's your basis for determining the causes of "white flight"....I've got bad news for you.

I'm not saying there weren't racist people back then, of course there were. I have no doubt that some were influenced by their racism when choosing where to live. I can't really tell though, if we're talking about a time when segregation was enforced by policy and law.

You really need to look at migration after the late 60s....and and guess what you'll find? Yup...every race self segregates...not just whites. It's to varying degrees...but all races prefer to live around their own race, generally speaking.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Right...it happened, but I don't know how significantly it contributed to white flight.

I wasn’t trying to make a claim about the quantitative impact blockbusting had on white flight. I merely brought it up as an example that bolstered my argument that white flight was real.

Go back and check my original claim....I never said it wasn't real.

You said that arguments about it are racist. I don’t know how to interpret that in a way that doesn’t suggest you don’t think it was real.

As for self segregation...how would you know that by looking at a time when actual segregation was enforced by law and policy?

The law didn’t require whites to leave.

You really need to look at migration after the late 60s....and and guess what you'll find? Yup...every race self segregates...not just whites. It's to varying degrees...but all races prefer to live around their own race, generally speaking.

Looking at the post war era introduces complxities that didn’t exist before the war - namely, the existence of suburbs.

If you read the paper, they tried to control for self-segregation by looking at Italian immigrants who highly self-segregated.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I didn't say that wasn't usually the case.

Their complaint is still an economic one.

When someone complains that black people moving into his neighborhood is causing his property value to fall, that's an economic complaint to. Yet it's commonly framed as "Oh, you just don't like black people".

 

[iluvatar5150]

When someone complains that black people moving into his neighborhood is causing his property value to fall, that's an economic complaint to. Yet it's commonly framed as "Oh, you just don't like black people".

At best, it's a complaint about the economic effects of the the racism.

 

[variant]

Usually? I take it you didn't find any articles about non-white gentrification either.

I'd be more inclined to believe the complaint is economic if it was ever leveled towards a non-white population....but it isn't. Whenever the conversation turns to a minority group moving into an area and bringing money (yes...it happens) the conversation becomes one of two things. They are either "revitalizing" an area....even though the exact same things happen in "gentrification" examples....or they are "investing in the community". It's a totally different conversation that basically ignores poor locals driven out by rising costs.

Well the general issue is not that people simply move into the area but instead take it over for development and make it hard for the people who used to live there to stay. When I toured an area of Philadelphia that this was happening to every other house was under construction and the townhouses there were selling for 700,000 to start.

If that doesn't happen then there really isn't much of an issue.

When a large amount of Asian people moved into my neighborhood nothing like that happened.

 

[variant]

When someone complains that black people moving into his neighborhood is causing his property value to fall, that's an economic complaint to. Yet it's commonly framed as "Oh, you just don't like black people".

More so it is a complaint about how racism causes economic problems. Personally my house was cheaper because I am not a racist.

The long history of housing segregation and white flight is something people should actually look into before they make such statements.
The Racial Segregation of American Cities Was Anything But Accidental | History | Smithsonian