Kaba

[Rut]

I already asnwered this simular question with kjf512 :
1) ......During the time of the Jews Makkah was already inhabited, and the Ka'abah was defiled by idols. G-d lead them to a place of safety after being inslaved in Egypt to which a new house was built exclusively to be used by them and for it to be maintianed by.

Makkah is 4 times the distance to travel from the land which they were established in.


Why take them all the way to house in Makkah which was already inhabited and defiled ? Dont you think it would have been better for teh Jews to jus start fresh ? Did you ever think if they went to Makkah tehy would have been lead into idolatry by the Makkan pagan just like how they were lead into it even after starting fresh ?

If you sitting there strying to figure our why would go do this and that, have you not been told this in your own book ?:


Isaiah 55:8

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD

So why are you trying to make sense out of the actions of G-d based on human rational acts ?

If you say "why this ?" you will have to also ask "why that ?"

Why didn`t God take away the idolatry as he have done earlier for example Sodom and Gomorra, Gold calf?


Yes the Bible say so but for example even say this (Proverbs 2)

3 and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,

4 and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.

So God want us to have knowledge so much as possible He want us to ask things

 

[Rut]

You wanted to know about the history of the ka'abah so we gave you what is available. The OP is not about what temple, mosque or church is more important than the other.

th concept of "Spritual Tempel" is a Christian exergesis and interpration of Biblical scripture highly opposed to Jews interpration. So it would not be wise not to ask someone about some based on rational perspective thought that the other does not believe in.

For the first:
If I wanted only to know the history of the Ka`abah I could ask for that but I gave You even scripture from Quran so I wanted to know the deep things.(I have learned about Ka`abah in school in Sweden, about history)

For the second:
When I asked I didn`t know what kind of replies I got so that`s why I ask more.I want to understand the hole picture.
When we debate about something else in another thread one of You muslims wrote that if "all scripture are inspired" why couldn`t then Quran belongs to "all scripture" so that`s why I want to see if everything can be from the same God.Then I can get answer on my questions in a understanding way

 

[Islam_mulia]

Hm, why is 94% of our government Anglo's? Does that mean all white people are in the government though? no.

Somehow I dont see the connection how that would mean the pilgrimage would encompassed climbing the mountain in Jordan, and walk all the way back to Jerusalem to complete the Feast of Tabernacle. You have not explained how this is consistent with Psalms 84.

It wasn't made after the destruction of the Temple.

Why then did the Psalmist longed to be at the House of God. Since we know the Temple was not built yet, that leaves us with the question of where the House of God is, which was located at the Valley of Baca.

Are you serious?

(Psa 84:1) For the choir director; on the gittith; a psalm by Korah's descendants. Your dwelling place is lovely, O LORD of Armies!

Wrong, most bible commentators put it as a Psalms FOR the sons of Korah. I hope it was not on purpose you wrote 'BY Korah's descendants'.

Are you kidding me?

Wow, I don't guess you have read the Bible huh? Even a few years ago when I was agnostic and had not read the Bible I knew that Psalms was not just written by David!

Psalms is not made to just be written by David.

Yes, I am amazed. Can you also highlight to me other examples in the OT book where the authors were not who they were thought to be? Interesting, I always imagine the Christians stand that the bible is the word of God.

 

[français]

Man you dont listen. The valley of tears (bekaa) is not in Israel, it is in Lebanon as you showed it on the map:

I was showing you a TOTALLY DIFFERENT place called bekaa. This is not the same "valley of Tears" I was referring to earlier. Sorry if I did not make that clear enough.

Also the word Bekaa here is actually Beqa'a which is a complete different word from the Baca in the Bible and Bakkah in the Quran.

Bekaa or Biqa come from the root bq'a spelled ba,qaaf, aiyn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beqaa_Valley

Baca and Bakkah come from the same root bka spelled ba, kaf(caf), alif (aleph)

It is a completely different word.

Ok, well I made two posts + after, discussing what I think it means, and tying it to another Psalm written by the Korah, so I do not need to explain this.

The verse you quoted makes not mention of the altar being at the house of worship. It is only identified with the pilgrimage, and yes muslim do make qurbani ie sacrifice of an animal in the pilgrimage:

The verse I quoted also did not mention the word "mecca" in Hebrew like it should if it is referring to the hajj. Now you INTERPERET it as doing so, but it never says the Hebrew word for mecca.

any further thaugts just let me know........

I did like in my last 2 or 3 posts I made.

You are quoting me from a post I made like 8 posts before, and you are not paying attention very well. Perhaps you should read all my posts first before picking at this or that.

The further you take this the bigger you keep diging your hole

LOL ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

Hah you honestly interperet Psalm 84 to be meaning mecca, and you think that I am digging a hole? I just freaking showed you that in Psalm 42 they were CRYING AKA WEEPING. It also mentioned a LOCATION.

Yet you STILL think it is referring to mecca.

Haha I don't know what kind of Jew you used to be.. Are you sure you were even a Jew?

I also showed you how the Korahites were assigned to do this or that at the Temple, and it is mentioned in Psalm 84.

. You obviously dont know anything about the muslim Hajj of how it is performed:

You're right. I haven't studied paganism yet

In order to link this Zion to Jerusalem your going to have to show where the Valley of Baca is at in Jerusalem or near it.

And I already showed you how the Valley of Weeping(Valley of Tears) was just a place where they were, on Mount Miraz, and they were weeping there, so they called it the valley of weeping.

If you say the Valley of Baca is the Valley of Biqaa (Tears) in Lebanon then you will have to identifiy the House of worship in Lebanan and what people make pilgrimage through the Valley of tears in Lebanon with connection to Zion by name or by meaning.

Damn, do you not listen? I already told you.. The "Vale of Tears" is in Israel. Near the Golan Heights.

I was just showing you another place with a similar name in Lebanon.

And they were making their way THROUGH the place, to get to Zion (their destination.) I already showed you that the word used for pilgrim should really be highway, as it is in the vast majority of translation.

A) There was a location originally called Zion in Lebenon

The first biblical mention of 'Zion' is Deut. 4.48 and is another name for Mount Hermon in Lebanon. This 'Zion' derives from 'Sirion,' a name given to the mountain by the Sidonians. This Zion is referred to again in Psalm 133.3 when the poet compares brotherly love to 'the dew of Hermon coming down on the mountains of Zion.'

H7865
שׂיאן
śîy'ôn
see-ohn'
From H7863; peak; Sion, the summit of Mt. Hermon: - Sion.

And what does the commentary say?
Here Hermon has another name Sion, and is to be carefully distinguished from Mount Zion near Jerusalem; it lying in a different country, and being written with a different letter in the Hebrew language.

B) There is no Zion by meaning of desert in the Valley of Biqaa in Lebanon:

DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW TO LISTEN? I showed a map of the Lebanon place, but the VALE OF TEARS is in ISRAEL NEAR THE GOLAN HEIGHTS. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME PLACE.

Now where is this house of worship in Lebanon that pilgrims pass through the Valley of Biqaa(tears) ?

They are PASSING THROUGH the place for one. So it does not have to be the same country. THINK
> and secondly, I already explained that I was just showing you a place in Lebanon.

Your interpretation will still point away from Jerusalem and away from the Jewish or Christian religion.

Maybe you should read my other posts before you say that. This is what I have adressed so far.

1. The Korahites were in charge of Temple duties, such as gatekeeping, and all of that.
2. the Korahites were seen crying(weeping) in Psalm 42, which is one of I think 8 of the Psalms written by them.
3. The description in Psalm 84 matches EXACTLY with the Temple that was in Jerusalem at the time.
>> If anything, your weak and close minded an unopen to the FACTS interperetation is EXTREMELY wrong. You obviously know nothing about the Korahites even though they are mentioned in your own quran. You obviously have no clue what their temple duties were, and how they match perfectly with Psalm 84. And, you obviously have not read other Psalms written by them, saying that they were CRYING(weeping), yet you still think it's mecca even though I have already mentioned all the facts.

You are in personal denial, trying so hard to prove your religion true, when you have absolutetly no ground to stand on. You pick and chose part of my posts so you can "tear me up." Yet you never seem to succeed. With the bee thing, I showed you how honey bees do not make their own nests. And you ran away from the topic. On the Earth thing, I showed you how there was no mountains when the meteorite mar sized hit, and I mentioned numerous links to prove my point, and you did not respond.

And now this.You just run away from all the important points I make, refusing to answer them, and try to make me look like I am some idiot. Yet really, I think it's doing quite the opposite. Because you are denying clear evidence in front of your face, that shows that the Korahites were in charge of the TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM, and that in Psalm 42 they were crying(weeping.) Yet you put all of that aside, put all of the similarities of the Korahites description of the Temple to the Temple in Jerusalem, you put aside all historic facts, you put aside what Rabbi's, scholars, and so forth have mentioned forever, and you mention something that is totally false, and you do everything you can, including manipulating my posts, to try and get your point across. You can't accept the facts.

I told you that I did not expect you to respond to my posts, because I knew that if you did it would make me really angry, because you are just twisting things around. You can not take it to be wrong. and whenever you have been "slam dunked", you make it seem like the world is coming to an end. You harass and make fun of me, yet I say one thing about you, and you click that button with the red exclamation mark at the bottom right side of the post.

See above starting and ending route of teh muslim pilgrimage

Really repetitive you know?

>> It makes more sense that Zion does not refer to Jerusalem if you cant find where the Valley of Baca is in or near Jerusalem that is associated with a pilgrimage.​

I already showed you that the Korahites in Psalm 42 were weeping. Yet you totally ignored that. I showed you the Korahites significance with the Temple in Jerusalem. Yet you ignore it.

You ignore any facts I say that make your point flawed, and you just skip right over it.

>>Does it make sense that is it literal ?​

Sure, that why we need to start from source 1 where on earth is there a location called The Valley of Baca where pilgrims pass through which resides a house of worship ?​

I am going to say it again - the Bible NEVER says that the House of Worship is in the valey of baca. It NEVER says that. In fact, what it says, is that they PASS THROUGH IT, to GET TO THE HOUSE OF WOPRSHIP(Zion.)

If you would have looked at my other topics before you replied to this, I doubt you would even have replied with all the nonsense you posted, because EVERYTHING was explained in those other two posts.

 

[français]

Somehow I dont see the connection how that would mean the pilgrimage would encompassed climbing the mountain in Jordan, and walk all the way back to Jerusalem to complete the Feast of Tabernacle. You have not explained how this is consistent with Psalms 84.

And I do not why they would go all the way down to mecca, "pass through" or make a stop at some temple with a stone in the middle of it, then go to some mountain WHICH THE PILGRIMS IN MECCA USED TO NOT DO BECAUSE IT WAS NOT YET AN ISLAMIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP, SO THEY DID NOT NEED TO GO TO THE MOUNTAIN WHERE MOHAMMAD'S FAREWELL SPEECH WAS, and then go all the way to Israel, where they were. Make any sense? No. and the mountain was what they were PASSING THROUGH, to GET to the Temple in Jerusalem.

Why then did the Psalmist longed to be at the House of God. Since we know the Temple was not built yet, that leaves us with the question of where the House of God is, which was located at the Valley of Baca.

You and oxy2hydro both do not know how to read.
The TEMPLE as in one of the 2 major onces standing was not yet built, but the Tabernacle, which was a House of God, which the KORAHITES WERE IN CHARGE OF was.

Wrong, most bible commentators put it as a Psalms FOR the sons of Korah. I hope it was not on purpose you wrote 'BY Korah's descendants'.

No it does not! You are soo wrong.
It all depends on what Bible translation you view. but go to Biblegateway.com and I promise you that you will see some that say "By the descendents of Korah."

And even if it was just "for" the desendents. So! It's still a Psalm for the Korahites.. It still refers to them, and speaks of them. And as you ignored above, the Korahites had a major role in the Tabernacle.

Yes, I am amazed. Can you also highlight to me other examples in the OT book where the authors were not who they were thought to be? Interesting, I always imagine the Christians stand that the bible is the word of God.

Do you mind showing me any proof what so ever from a bible, or a Chrsitian site, that says the Psalms were all written by David? Please look for just ONE that says that. I promise you will not find it. Different Psalms were written by different people. In Christian translations, usually the first verse will say who it is, like it might say "A psalm of David" or something. In Jewish translations, it is usually the intro. They do not count it as a verse, but it is still in the Tanakh's!

Study the Bible a little more dude!

 

[Islam_mulia]

And I do not why they would go all the way down to mecca, "pass through" or make a stop at some temple with a stone in the middle of it, then go to some mountain WHICH THE PILGRIMS IN MECCA USED TO NOT DO BECAUSE IT WAS NOT YET AN ISLAMIC HOUSE OF WORSHIP, SO THEY DID NOT NEED TO GO TO THE MOUNTAIN WHERE MOHAMMAD'S FAREWELL SPEECH WAS, and then go all the way to Israel, where they were. Make any sense? No. and the mountain was what they were PASSING THROUGH, to GET to the Temple in Jerusalem.

1. The sentence that was capitalized is something which you may need to do more research. The Haj was practicised even before Islam came and Muslims do not go to Arafat just bec the Prophet has his last sermon there, but because God commands the Muslims to do so. It is tye zenith of the haj and that is the place where Muslims from all over the world praise God and seek his forgiveness.

2. Having said that, how then is your idea of a Jewish pilgrimage that takes you to a mountain in Jordan (or Lebanon, or Golan Heights, if you do not already changed your mind) and then walk all the way back to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacle. Did you get from the Rabbi that is what the Jews practiced?

3. btw, where do you get the idea of crying and weeping with the Feast of Tabernacle? You seemed too preoccupied to relate the weeping with Baca that you forget the Feast of Tabernacke is a feast, it is a joyful day, not where you cry and weep. Can you explain?

No it does not! You are soo wrong.
It all depends on what Bible translation you view. but go to Biblegateway.com and I promise you that you will see some that say "By the descendents of Korah."

Here is the passage from biblegateway.com
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms+84&version=31

Where does it say it was written 'BY the descendants of Korash'?

And even if it was just "for" the desendents. So! It's still a Psalm for the Korahites.. It still refers to them, and speaks of them. And as you ignored above, the Korahites had a major role in the Tabernacle.

Aha... now you are not very sure it is written BY the Korashite.

Basically this Psalms was just a poem for the Chief Musician to play about David's complaint that he was unable to get access to the House of God.

I did not ignore the Korahites had a role in the Tabernacle. I just wanted you to link the Tabernacle, the crying and weeping (on a festive joyful day?), and the Valley of Baca.

Do you mind showing me any proof what so ever from a bible, or a Chrsitian site, that says the Psalms were all written by David? Please look for just ONE that says that. I promise you will not find it. Different Psalms were written by different people. In Christian translations, usually the first verse will say who it is, like it might say "A psalm of David" or something. In Jewish translations, it is usually the intro. They do not count it as a verse, but it is still in the Tanakh's!

Study the Bible a little more dude!

Ok. OK... you win. The Psalms was NOT written by David alone. There were indeed other authors.

How about the other OT books. Were there also uninspired priests/scribes who wrote the book and ascribed them as from God?

 

[dnihila]

I`m fine dnhila I hope you are so too
Thank you for the reply.That what you told me many question come up in my mind.
What I understand You muslims have hard time to understand that Jesus have been up to heaven before he was here on earth, correct? Why is it easier to understand that Adam have been there? Was Eve there too? When Adam came to the earth where did Allah (swt) sat him? Was it in Saudi Arabia where Mecca is?

All people were in heaven as souls before they are born including Jesus and Muhammad (P eace Be Upon them Both)
Then How did prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him )
saw the people of Hell punished in there and saw the palaces of Heaven but not inhabited by people.
Cause prophet Muhammad is the first one to get into heaven(PBUH).
He saw all the prophets in different Heavens praying. And he didn't describe them having luxury of Heaven.
Which means that they are alive in the place between Heaven and Life.
He described some of them (Peace Be Upon Them All)
and he talked to Moses (PBUH) when Allah ordered prophet Muhammad to ask people to pray that we all know that Moses Title is ( The Speaker To Allah).
That He has that gift that he was able to speak to prophet Muhammad (PBUH) because of this blessing by Allah and to go back to Moses (PBUH) life his nation also were ordered to pray but more than 5 times and that's why he advised prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to go back to Allah and ask Him to decrease the number of prayers which were 50 prayers aday into a lower number and Moses (PBUH) said that your followers will not stand the 50 prayers like my followers.
The story above show us that the prophets are alive in afterlife and they are not dead cause the earth doesn't eat their bodies and Allah is the All Knowing .
We believe that prophet Jesus (PBUH) is created in his mother's womb ( Mary's womb) (PBUH) and his soul is blown into his mother and this soul is from Allah's soul.
And we all know that Allah has created Adam and blow in him from His soul. So Adam and Jesus (PBU them both) share this quality.and that's why Allah has said that creating Jesus (PBUH) is like creating Adam(PBUH).
But Adam was created without a mother and a father and Jesus was created from a mother.
And we know that Adam was created by Allah's hands and he is created from mud/clay and Adam's offspring in generating are different.
And Jesus is created by Allah's Soul which is the second phase in Adam's creation.But not created from mud/clay cause that has happened once with Adam that even Eve was not created from clay/mud and she is Adam's wife.
Jesus (PBUH) is one of Adam's offspring but is blessed by this way of creating cause he is a miracle to Sons of Israel that the woman at mary's time were known for prostitution that she was tested by having a child without a husband to show them that she the clean one has a child and he became a prophet while those woman were wishing to have children who will become prophets.
And we never call the Creator (father). Cause He is The Almighty and we are not His offspring ( May Allah be praised ).

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Why didn`t God take away the idolatry as he have done earlier for example Sodom and Gomorra, Gold calf?

G-d does what he wills at whatever time he pleases to do so. Idolatry was bannished in Makkah and the House purified as G-d fulfilled the request of Abraham and Ishmael by the sending a prophetic messenger to them.

So simple put it was the will of G-d for the Jewish people to purify the house in Makkah cause it would have fell back to idolotry like they did with the Temple that was intrusted to them.

History speaks for its self.

So God want us to have knowledge so much as possible He want us to ask things

So be it, becarefull not to chew more than what you can swallow. I dont know you, and I dont know your compacity, but I have seen people loose it when trying to understand everything, and have been led astray trying to understand G-d's actions and then comparing them with human actions in logical perpective.

For the first:
If I wanted only to know the history of the Ka`abah I could ask for that but I gave You even scripture from Quran so I wanted to know the deep things.(I have learned about Ka`abah in school in Sweden, about history)

Understood

For the second:
When I asked I didn`t know what kind of replies I got so that`s why I ask more.I want to understand the hole picture.
When we debate about something else in another thread one of You muslims wrote that if "all scripture are inspired" why couldn`t then Quran belongs to "all scripture" so that`s why I want to see if everything can be from the same God.Then I can get answer on my questions in a understanding way

I dont know in what context the muslim answered this question. If he/she was speaking in the context that ALL REVEALED scripture to the prophets are inspired by G-d then yes I would 100% agree.

However if such a person in context stated that all scripture TODAY which has been alleged to be revealed to the prophets is inspired by G-d I would object to this, and would question the muslim's awareness of what the Quran tells us about the former scriptures that are at hand.

1) The Quran is a musadiq and muhaymin over all scripture claimed to have been revealed by G-d. A musadiq is a truth verifier, it verifies whatever is in the former scripture is and is not from G-d. A Muhaymin is a supervisor or governor, it governs over whatever is inside those scripture and supersides them in authority.

2) Whatever contradict the Quran or conflicts with it is not from G-d so therefore not inspired by G-d.

3) Muslim apsect of the Bible is that whatever is in agreement with the Quran then that thing is from G-d, and whatever conflicts with the Quran then that thing is not from G-d

 

[français]

1. The sentence that was capitalized is something which you may need to do more research. The Haj was practicised even before Islam came and Muslims do not go to Arafat just bec the Prophet has his last sermon there, but because God commands the Muslims to do so. It is tye zenith of the haj and that is the place where Muslims from all over the world praise God and seek his forgiveness.

Yes, I understand, but do you honestly believe that over 2,000 years ago they went to arafat and all? And if so, can you show me some preislamic documents to prove that they did?

2. Having said that, how then is your idea of a Jewish pilgrimage that takes you to a mountain in Jordan (or Lebanon, or Golan Heights, if you do not already changed your mind) and then walk all the way back to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacle. Did you get from the Rabbi that is what the Jews practiced?

You do not understand.. They do not pass through the "valley of weeping" as part of their pilgrimage. They just pass through it to GET to their destination. NEVER does Psalm 84 say that it is part of their pilgrimage. It is just simply a place where they pass through. This is what I have been trying to tell you guys forever!

3. btw, where do you get the idea of crying and weeping with the Feast of Tabernacle? You seemed too preoccupied to relate the weeping with Baca that you forget the Feast of Tabernacke is a feast, it is a joyful day, not where you cry and weep. Can you explain?

The Psalm is speaking directly about the Korahites, and not the other Jews. The Korahites were saddened by something, so they were crying. And they passed through this area to get to the pilgrimage where some thing sad had happened.

The "Valley of weeping" is NOT part of the pilgrimage. It is merely a place that the Korahites called because they were weeping there when they passed through this area. So, they made it known as "The valley of weeping." But it is NOT a part of the pilgrimage. It's merely a place where they pass through.

Here is the passage from biblegateway.com
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms+84&version=31

Where does it say it was written 'BY the descendants of Korash'?

That is one version of many that you could have viewed.

Aha... now you are not very sure it is written BY the Korashite.

Nope, I never said that. But what I said, was that even if it was not written BY the korahites, it was written at least ABOUT the Korahites.

Basically this Psalms was just a poem for the Chief Musician to play about David's complaint that he was unable to get access to the House of God.

The Psalm has nothing to do with David. It has to do with the Korahites.

I did not ignore the Korahites had a role in the Tabernacle. I just wanted you to link the Tabernacle, the crying and weeping (on a festive joyful day?), and the Valley of Baca.

Like I said.. The "Valley of Weeping" is not part of the pilgrimage. notice that it says they PASS THROUGH. And, the word in verse 5 that some translations use as pilgrim does not mean that at all, and most translations say highway, or roadway. They were merely passing through an area, and they were sad about something(Psalm 42) so they called it the "Valley of weeping"

Ok. OK... you win. The Psalms was NOT written by David alone. There were indeed other authors.

Yes, and that is how it has always been. Psalms was not meant to be written by just David. There are Psalms by Abraham, Adam, etc.

How about the other OT books. Were there also uninspired priests/scribes who wrote the book and ascribed them as from God?

Nope, because other books were written by Prophets and such. Psalms on the other hand was just writings, like short stories, poems, etc, written by people of high power. Example would be Abraham, David, and the Korahites (as they had a major duty with the Temple.)

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

I was showing you a TOTALLY DIFFERENT place called bekaa. This is not the same "valley of Tears" I was referring to earlier. Sorry if I did not make that clear enough.

Ok, so now where is the proof of where this Valley of Tears is located ? Please show us where it is on a map.

I am sure you have a Bible that shows has the old ancient maps. The one i have shows no location of such name in or around Jerusalem. Do you have the Hebrew name of "Tears" ?

The verse I quoted also did not mention the word "mecca" in Hebrew like it should if it is referring to the hajj. Now you INTERPERET it as doing so, but it never says the Hebrew word for mecca.

Ww are not speaking about the modern name Mecca, we are speaking about the former name of Makkah(Mecca) that is also called "Bakkah" which denotes a place of weaping the same as the Hebrew Baca. Both words are COGNATES.

LOL ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

No I am joking you

Hah you honestly interperet Psalm 84 to be meaning mecca, and you think that I am digging a hole? I just freaking showed you that in Psalm 42 they were CRYING AKA WEEPING. It also mentioned a LOCATION.

No, I honestly interpret Psalm 84 to mean Bakkah the former name of Makkah. During the pilgrimage the pilgrims do weap when passing through the Valley where the Holy House resides.

Yet you STILL think it is referring to mecca.

Bakkah

Haha I don't know what kind of Jew you used to be.. Are you sure you were even a Jew?

What is a Jew ?

I also showed you how the Korahites were assigned to do this or that at the Temple, and it is mentioned in Psalm 84.

You didnt show us where this Valley of Baca is located at. Everything is mere assumption, speculation, and conjecture. You have not shown not one ounce of hard core evidence like a map showing this valley exist in or around Jerusalem.

Such a great commemorated event that the Psalmist speaks of whould have been well known and mapped just like the hill of olives, and other commemorted sites that are ALL mapped.

And I already showed you how the Valley of Weeping(Valley of Tears) was just a place where they were, on Mount Miraz, and they were weeping there, so they called it the valley of weeping.

You showed no mapping of this location. All you did is made an allegation. You stated with this :

1. It could be talking about a literal place. If this is the case, then it is probably referring to the "Valley of Tears" (also known as "Vale of Tears" which is near Golan Heights in palestine but occupied by Israel. This place is even known as habakah.

Now I asked you to show proof of a Valley of Baca that is "in" or "around" Jerusalem. You said it is "Probably refereing the Valley of Tears in Golan Heights".

Now we looked this up and we found that The Valley of Tears resides a city called Qunaytirah or Kuneitra (Reference) which is about 100 hundred miles north west of Jerusalem.

Making a pilgrimage to and from this valley back then would have been almost 500 miles to cover which would have taken them a months perhaps months to make the journey.

This location is NO WHERE NEAR JERUSALEM.

It seems the word "tears" in "The Valley of Tears" may come from the word Qunaytirah, not Baca.

Also the Valley of Qunaytirah or Tears was named this after the Yom Kippur war in 1973.

Whether you know anything about the Yom Kippur War - and even if you don't - this place should be included on your agenda of sites to see while in the area. The summit of Mount Bental offers a spectacular panoramic view of Syria, Lebanon and Northeastern Israel. From this strategic point, one can look over the famous Quinetra Valley, aka "Valley of Tears" - named so for hosting one of the Yom Kippur's bloodiest battles in 1973.

http://www.virtualtourist.com/trave...Ziwan-1815806/Things_To_Do-Ayn_Ziwan-R-1.html

In the north, an elite Syrian commando attacked and captured the key Israeli electronic surveillance base at the top of Mt Hermon. Two Syrian divisions and hundreds of tanks attacked in the north, where Israel had placed about 130 tanks of the Seventh brigade on high ground before a deep antitank ditch, facing a plain that become known as the "vale of tears." During the day, the Israelis had a slight advantage because the Sun was in the eyes of the Syrians. At night however, this situation was reversed. Israeli tanks did not have night-vision sights or binoculars. The Soviet tanks did. Israeli tank commanders had to find "sleeping" Syrian tanks, often yards away, from the sound of their motors. The crucial battle in the north was fought on October 9th. Israeli tanks, reduced to a few dozen by Syrian artillery and tank fire, annihilated about two hundred Syrian tanks as they attempted to advance in the vale of tears near Quneitra. The Israelis were out of ammunition and many tanks were damaged. However, the Syrians, considering their own losses and failing to estimate the situation accurately, halted their attack.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/YomKippurWar.htm

You got 2 strikes kjf512. Please show us where the Valley of Baca is.

 

[français]

I am going to tell you this one last time. And don't even start with the "You have to strikes." Because hah, if this was a gaem, you would have already been out!
What part of

6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca,
they make it a place of springs;
the autumn rains also cover it with pools. 7 They go from strength to strength,
till each appears before God in Zion.

They are simply PASSING THROUGH the damn place to get to the House in zion.

I already showed you Psalm 42..

My tears have been my food
day and night,
while men say to me all day long,
"Where is your God?"


(Psa 42:6) My soul is discouraged. That is why I will remember you in the land of Jordan, on the peaks of Hermon, on Mount Mizar.

When the Korahites were passing through Jordan they were discouraged, and in TEARS. Hence, they nicknamed the place "VALLEY OF TEARS"

It does not have to be on some freaking geographical map. And it is NOT the pilgrimage they are on. They are simply PASSING THROUGH until they appear to God in Zion.

I also mentioned that during hajj, before mohammad came, they did NOT go to mount arafat and all of that. Are you so stupid that you can't even grasp that?

I also showed you what the duty of the Korahites were at the Tubernacle. And you STILL ignore that.

you ignore all the facts, you ignore all of it, all to try and prove your point.

WELL YOU CAN'T DO IT.

So get a freaking life and get off the damn computer and quit your lying.

 

[français]

Oxy2hydr0, I am sorry, but I have NEVER been so disgusted by a person like you who tries to make up all kinds of lies to try and prove your point.

I showed you specifically what the Korahites duty at the temple was, as well as Psalm 42 that says that they were crying(weeping.) And, Psalm 42, like 84, is one by the Korahites.

Yet you STILL ignore this, and you make up all kinds of lies to try and prove your point.

You think that simply because your false prophet called mecca "bakkah" that all of a sudden the two "baca's" are the same thing.
If anything, your false prophet made a mistake, just as you are making now. he did not know the duties that the Korahites had towards the Tabernacle and did not read Psalm 42 where when the Korahites were passing through an area they were in tears, aka they were WEEPING.

you think that just because your false prophet called mecca bakkah, that all of a sudden this is what mecca was referred to for years. This simply is not true. Please show me some non islamic documents where mecca is called bakkah.


You are so desperate to try and prove yourself right, and it seems as if you rely strictly on this verse. But then again.. You were Christian, you were a Jew, and now you're muslim. Only God knows what you will be next!

You can never accept the fact that you might just so happen to be wrong. And whenever you are wrong, you accuse someone of lying, or forging something, or something of that nature.

I have never seen someone so desperate as you are to try and prove yourself right. You pick and choose which one of my quotes you want to discuss. You ignore two of my posts all together, where I totally showed you how the Description of the Temple in Psalm 84 matches EXACTLY with how it was. You ignore the fact that the Korahites were in charge of the temple.

And, you ignore that the Korahites were crying(weeping) in Psalm 42, and they even mentioned exactly WHERE they were weeping at.

And lastly, you ignore the fact the that Korahites were simply passing through the "valley of weeping" to GET to Zion. You also ignore that I specifically told you that in verse 5, the word used for pilgrimage actually means nothing of the sort, and most translations say highway or some thing, meaning they PASS THROUGH it, sort of going going on a highway to pass through, to GET TO ZION.

Your desperation to prove me wrong is put of whack. You think that people don't read these posts, so you will just quote a few things in my post, ignoring 90% of the other part, and you try and make a long response, or some smart allick comment that you think will make people so "Oh! he rebutted him." But really, all it does is shows how desperate and what a laughing stock you really are.

Your ignorance is appalling. I have never seen someone so ignorant, desperate, and such a deceiver as you are. You disgust me. And you make me so mad to where I have to result in making a hugggeee post criticizing you, some thing that I hate to do. I am a compulsive cusser. And when I can't cuss, I will just rant about how ignorant someone is, which is what I am doing now. You are a filth. And your desperation shows that.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

I am still waiting for you to show us proof where the Valley of Baca is located at.

 

[français]

I Just Showed You From The Bible Where It Says That They Were Crying(weeping.) It Is In Psalm 42. It Also Says Where They Were When They Were Crying.

Psalm 84 Is Saying That They Were Weeping As They Were passing Through That Area. It Is not an Actual Place Called "valley Of Weeping." It Has A Metephorical Meaning To It.

So Shut Up About Looking For A Freaking Place Called That Already.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

Can you please show us on a Map where this "Valley of Baca" is located at that you claim the Psalmist is speaking about ?

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

To conclude this episode, the ONLY place on earth geographically that can be "found" with a place called "The Valley of Baca" in which pilgrims pass through this valley where there is a "well, spring or fountain" to give drink to the pilgrims is in Saudia Arabia known today as Makkah which was formerly called by the name Bakkah

Valley of Baca (Hebrew): Baca, meaning: weaping

Valley or Bakkah(Arabic): Bakkah, meaning: weaping

 

[Islam_mulia]

Other than Makkah fitting the description of the Valley of Baca in Psalms 84 (see Brother Oxy's posts), the passage does not accurately relate to the Korahites as suggested by kjf (and you see the pressure is on him with the shouting):

1. Why would the Psalms be about the Feast of Tabernacles, a time of joy and prayer, when the Psalms were talking about 'weeping' and 'crying' 'lamenting'? It just does not add.

2. Why would the Psalmist write about his lamentation to be at the House of God, if the pilgrimage would guide him to Jerusalem? Why the srying and weeping?

3. There was never a time where the jewish pilgrimage entails going as far as the mountain of Jordan, Lebanon or Golan Heights (depending on what suited kjf best) before making their final destination to the Temple which has not been built at the time of King David). This is far-fetched, I must say, and have no corresponding practice by Jews.

4. Bible commentaries are divided over who actually wrote Psalms 84. The following suggests that the Psalms was written about David (for ten Korahites)

4.1 John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

4.2 C.H. Spurgeons's The Treasury of David

4.3 The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]

[/FONT]
4.4 The 1599 Geneva Study Bible[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]

5. To conclude this interesting discussion, I must say that the inability of kjf to (i) point to the Valley of Baca and (ii) the (inconsistencies regarding jewish pilgrimage and the weeping with Psalms 84), together with the correct descriptions of Mecca shows that the Valley of Baca was referring to Mecca.

6. Many thanks to Brother Oxy and kjf for the interesting discussions (and shouting),
[/FONT]

 

[français]

To conclude this episode, the ONLY place on earth geographically that can be "found" with a place called "The Valley of Baca" in which pilgrims pass through this valley where there is a "well, spring or fountain" to give drink to the pilgrims is in Saudia Arabia known today as Makkah which was formerly called by the name Bakkah

Valley of Baca (Hebrew): Baca, meaning: weaping

Valley or Bakkah(Arabic): Bakkah, meaning: weaping

Ok, that is your conclusion. Now here is MY conclusion.

Conclusion:

We know that this Psalm is by the Korahites. If islam_mulia does not accept that, then we can it least say that it is ABOUT the korahites.

We know a lot about the Tabernacle, which is discussed quite often in the Bible. If you refer to page 10, I made 2 long posts about it. We know that the Tabernacle was controlled by the Korahites. and we know that the Korahites were doorkeepers. Not only that, but we also know a lot more about the Korahites and the Tabernacle, and the Tabernacle in general.

In Psalm 84, we know that the Korahites say that they would rather be the doorkeeper at the Lords house then dwell in the tents of the wicked (v. 10)

We know that Psalm 42 is a maskil of the sons of Korah(v.1)
We know that they were in tears, or weeping (v. 1,3,&4)
We know that they were leading the House of God(tabernacle) (v.4)
We know that the house of God is the Tabernacle, and that the Korah were in charge of it (1 Chronicles 9:19)
We know that when they were crying, they were crying from the land of Jordan, from mount mizar(Ps 42:4)


So: We know that they were weeping, and they were weeping from Mount Mizar. We know that they played a key role in the Tabernacle. We know that the "springs" being referred to in Ps 84:6 actually means spring of tears (42:1)

We know that they were simply PASSING THOUGH the "valley of weeping" in order to get the Zion.(84:6,7) We know that Zion is the Temple mount in Jerusalem. We know that during their time, the Tabernacle was there.
We know that the word "Pilgrim" being used in v.5 is wrong, and it should actually mean road, highway, or something of that nature.

מסלּה
mesillâh
mes-il-law'
From H5549; a thoroughfare (as turnpiked), literally or figuratively; specifically a viaduct, a staircase: - causeway, roadway, highway, path, terrace.

So, we know that the Korah were in charge of the Tabernacle, and that they were doorkeepers. We know that they played a VERY significant role in the Tabernacle. We know that they were crying as they were passing through and area. And we know that "valley of weeping" is simply metaphorical.

We know that before the (false) prophet mohammad, people did not go to mount arafat and such, since mohammad was not yet there.

how can someone honestly believe that this is referring to mecca, when
1. The Korahites played a huge role in the Tubernacle
2. They were weeping in Psalm 42
3. They were doorkeepers of the Tubernacle, and Psalm 84 says that they want to be doorkepers

To claim that it is referring to mecca, disregarding all of what I have just said here, and I said on Page 10 (http://www.christianforums.com/t5586060&page=10) is outright ridiculous and a lie.

Thank you

 

[français]

Other than Makkah fitting the description of the Valley of Baca in Psalms 84 (see Brother Oxy's posts), the passage does not accurately relate to the Korahites as suggested by kjf (and you see the pressure is on him with the shouting):

Please show me how it does not relate to the Korahites when VERSE 1 SAYS IT DOES.

1. Why would the Psalms be about the Feast of Tabernacles, a time of joy and prayer, when the Psalms were talking about 'weeping' and 'crying' 'lamenting'? It just does not add.

Read about the Korahites, and how they were punished by God.

2. Why would the Psalmist write about his lamentation to be at the House of God, if the pilgrimage would guide him to Jerusalem? Why the srying and weeping?

Same question as question 1 lol. Like I said, read about the Korahites and Gods punishment on them. I believe it is even in the quran if you would like a small, blunt, unexplanative version of it.

3. There was never a time where the jewish pilgrimage entails going as far as the mountain of Jordan, Lebanon or Golan Heights (depending on what suited kjf best) before making their final destination to the Temple which has not been built at the time of King David). This is far-fetched, I must say, and have no corresponding practice by Jews.

FOR THE LOVE OF FREAKING GOODNESS.. ARE YOU SO BLIND TO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE SIMPLY PASSING THROUGH TO GET TO THE HOUSE OF GOD. WHAT IS SO HARD ABOUT THAT? IT IS NOT PART OF THE PILGRIMAGE.

4. Bible commentaries are divided over who actually wrote Psalms 84. The following suggests that the Psalms was written about David (for ten Korahites)

4.1 John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

4.2 C.H. Spurgeons's The Treasury of David

4.3 The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]

[/FONT]
4.4 The 1599 Geneva Study Bible

It is still about the Korahites though, as you have just showed. So thank you!
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
[/FONT]

5. To conclude this interesting discussion, I must say that the inability of kjf to (i) point to the Valley of Baca and (ii) the (inconsistencies regarding jewish pilgrimage and the weeping with Psalms 84), together with the correct descriptions of Mecca shows that the Valley of Baca was referring to Mecca.

You and oxy2hydro are the two most ignorant men I have ever met online
I already told you.. The "Valley of baca" is simply a metephorical meaning of a place where they were when they were weeping. And it is NOT part of their pilgirmage. It is simply where they passed through.
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]

6. Many thanks to Brother Oxy and kjf for the interesting discussions (and shouting),

[/FONT]

Oxy not only did not answer to my objections, but he bluntly quoted only parts of my posts, and totally ignored the two main posts on page 10 where I proved my point. Since this debate is over, I must say, oxyhydro did a very poor and lame job at "rebutting" what I said. His denial of facts is disturbingly disgusting, and I have never seen anything like it.

 

[Rut]

I shall admit that I have read everything you have written about the Valley of Baca.( I have been busy the last days) What I have understand you all think that can be a place that is the name and we don`t know where it is.I found something intresting when I look very quick in my books.The Baca can be a plant - hebrew ba`kha``

Little about the plant in the Bible:

The plant that played such an important role in David`s encounter with the Philistines " 2 Sam 5:22 - 25, 1 Chron 14:13 - 16

From 2 Sam

24 And let it be, when thou hearest the sound of a going in the tops of the mulberry trees, that then thou shalt bestir thyself: for then shall the LORD go out before thee, to smite the host of the Philistines.

Yes I know here it say mulberry trees but when I look into the hebrew verse it say it say baca

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H01057&Version=kjv

The only other reference to the plant is at Psalm 84:6 This may refer to the same "low plain of Rephaim"where David`s fight took place and which plain is believed to be SW of Jerusalem