Kaba

[Rut]

Actually no, the Kaba does not have a place where people go to listen to sermons...sorry if I was unclear, I was trying to make a comparison.

The Kaba is a place where we do Hajj and that is why they make seven circuits around it, as it perscribed.

I've seen people kiss crosses and viles of holy water but I do not think they are worshipping these objects....rather showing respect to them. I know a lot of Chrisitans who desire to visit Jeruselum and walk the the road to Golgatha, they weep and pray because they are so overcome with emotion. This I think is comparible to the Hajj around the Kaba to a Muslim.

Hope this helps a bit.

~Sarah

Why shall they show respect for them? It`s only things.I have never understood that.
I understand what you say about Jerusalem but that haven`t God asked them to do but in Quran have Allah (swt) asked for that
3:97] In it are clear signs: the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone.

 

[Rut]

building ka`ba was an order from allah (arabic and in aramaic alaha ,means one true god) its not a miracle ,the miracle was the call for hajj and pray

I know but why then is it called Abraham`s shrine? That are what I trying to say.Moses said that he was doing things but God had said to him that the should honour God when Moses make water

 

[ahmadhassan]

yes he can do pray bec ka`ba has haram in which he can pray (edited for my misunderstanding )
ka`ba is the cubic house only not all haram

ka`ba is the cubic house only not all haram

 

[ahmadhassan]

I know but why then is it called Abraham`s shrine? That are what I trying to say.Moses said that he was doing things but God had said to him that the should honour God when Moses make water

this is a clearer translation of meaning
3:97. In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqâm (place) of Ibrâhîm (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka‘bah ) is a duty that mankind owes to Allâh, those who can afford the expenses (for one’s conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves [i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever of Allâh], then Allâh stands not in need of any of the ‘Âlamîn (mankind, jinn and all that exists)[SIZE=-1][1][/SIZE].

 

[sunrise0]

Here is another Biblical text about the Holy Mosque "Kabah" :

Psals: 84:4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.​

The Ka'bah is open 24 hours a day, and is contineousley full of worshipers who praise the Almighty Allah like the verse says.

 

[français]

The kabaa has not existed as long as muslims claim.. "Since the time of Adam." If that was the case, then 1. The Jews would have been going to the kabaa and praying towards it and such, and 2. Ancient documents would have spoken of it, but there have been none so far that say a such.

The kabaa today is not the only kabaa in that area.(or wasn't.) There used to be many different kabaa style worships that the pagans did. Of course, they have all since been destroyed except the present day kabaa.

History of course shows us that the kabaa was used as a place of pagan worship and the worship of the planet saturn. There is also ample evidence to suggest that it could have been a Hindu temple. (Contray to what most people believe, hinduism seems to have had a pressence in arabia at a time.)

Never though did Christians go around the kabaa, nor Jews.

The Temple in the OT was mentioned many times, by many people. It was the place to be! It was Gods temple! But never do we see the Bible, or even history, mentioning Jews having anything to do with the kabaa.


When someone prays around a big stone, it often makes one wonder why. And, it does indeed look like pagan worship or idoltry. I, as a Chrsitian would say that it is most certainly idoltry.

mohammad's family had a long history with the kabaa. And it's nto surpising that mohammad chose the kabaa and claimed that it was built by adam, then later by abraham, and this and that. It is of course all lies, and it is a very heretical belief that does not go hand in hand with what history tells us.

EDIT:

To the member who mentioned Isaiah 42 - Oh my goodness, how many times have we gone over this? Please, open your mind. I already showed you what it meant, and showed you the history of the prophesy.

To sunrise - How is that mentioning kabaa? Can you show me where in particular it mentions the arabs? It is speaking of the Lords house, the Temple, in Jerusalem. For you to abruptly switch things around to conform to your heretical beliefs is disgusting. It also says "selah." Selah means to sing. Hmm, last time I checked, singing and most music in general was haram in islam!

 

[baobobtree]

History of course shows us that the kabaa was used as a place of pagan worship and the worship of the planet saturn. There is also ample evidence to suggest that it could have been a Hindu temple. (Contray to what most people believe, hinduism seems to have had a pressence in arabia at a time.)

Agreed, but calling it a Hindu temple is a bit of an overstatement. The majority of the deities worshiped in the Kaba were probably of Arabian, Persian, Egyptian or Palestinian (Canaanitian) origin (though it's possible a few Hindu deities were imported to Arabia as well).

When someone prays around a big stone, it often makes one wonder why. And, it does indeed look like pagan worship or idoltry. I, as a Chrsitian would say that it is most certainly idoltry.

Again agreed, but keep in mind, many Christians practice something called iconography which is a bit idolatrous itself.

 

[français]

Agreed, but calling it a Hindu temple is a bit of an overstatement. The majority of the deities worshiped in the Kaba were probably of Arabian, Persian, Egyptian or Palestinian (Canaanitian) origin (though it's possible a few Hindu deities were imported to Arabia as well).

I too agree that the vast majority of deities worshipped there were Arabian, Persian, etc. But, there was a docuemnt found (hundreds of years before mohammad i might add) and it was a document on Hinduism and Hindu Gods being worshipped at the kabaa. So, at a point, it was probably a Hindu Temple, or at least had great Hindu significance.

Again agreed, but keep in mind, many Christians practice something called iconography which is a bit idolatrous itself.

Ahh, I see them as different. Iconography is merely where there is a portrait of someone from the Bible, a Saint, etc. So like if there is a portrait of Jesus, we might pray to Jesus looking at it! But it's not like islam, where you pray towards a big black stone!

But then again, I would say that at least 40% of Christians do not practice iconography.

 

[Islam_mulia]

I too agree that the vast majority of deities worshipped there were Arabian, Persian, etc. But, there was a docuemnt found (hundreds of years before mohammad i might add) and it was a document on Hinduism and Hindu Gods being worshipped at the kabaa. So, at a point, it was probably a Hindu Temple, or at least had great Hindu significance.

... and I believe the same theory said that Jesus was a Hindu too.... can you really stomach that?

Do me a favour. While I understand your dislike for Islam, I would hope that you have some grain of intelligence to evaluate the theory before blasting out and making yourself a victim of incredulity.

 

[français]

... and I believe the same theory said that Jesus was a Hindu too.... can you really stomach that?

Hm, the document on Hindunet that speaks of docuemnts showing the kabaa was a Hindu temple never once mentions anything about Jesus. I do not know where you get your informatin from. Perhaps a different document.

Do me a favour. While I understand your dislike for Islam, I would hope that you have some grain of intelligence to evaluate the theory before blasting out and making yourself a victim of incredulity.

Thanks for the concern, but no thank you. So far, I have yet to see how you have made me a victim of incredulity. By simply claiming that Hindu's thought that Jesus was a Hidu?

Even if they did, does that still all of a sudden mean that it was NOT a Hindu temple, nor had any Hindu significance at a point in time? No, it does not. Rather, it means that some Hindu's held that belief. That nevertheless does not make the document untrusted, because if it was a belief, then it was a belief!

 

[Islam_mulia]

Please follow this link to understand why the Ka'aba and Islamic haj have some parallel to the jewish pilgrimage.
http://www.christianforums.com/t5591579-must-read-the-muslim-haj-and-jewish-hag.html

It will be silly to think that Jacob and Abraham could have institutionalised a paganistic ritual.

 

[sunrise0]

To kjf512

This is an invitation for a dual dialogue between you and me about Islam and Christianity. you are my guest so you have the privilage to start a thread.

waiting

 

[français]

Ahh, why not! lol


But before .. What topics would we be discussing?

 

[sunrise0]

Good

How about starting from the most important point ; the concept of God in both Islam and Christianity.you start a thread , we discuss this point to the end before we move to another point.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

[2:125] We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate."


Why did they build the Kaba? See Exodus 20:4 - 5 I know You muslims take this verse very serious so what are Kaba so different?
What is the different between the Kaba and the Gold calf Exodus 32:1 - 35
Kaba aren`t a house what I know either

2:127] As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient

When I read "Abraham shrine" I feel that is something wrong here.Why? Always in the Bible when peole take the honour to make something but that was God then God discipline see for example Numbers 20:1 -13, 22 - 29

The problem here is the translation. This is what it says to me based on both Warsh and Hafs reading of the Arabic text of teh Quran:

Q 2:125

وَإِذْ جَعَلْنَا الْبَيْتَ مَثَابَةً لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَمْناً وَاتَّخِذُواْ مِن مَّقَامِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ مُصَلًّى وَعَهِدْنَا إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ أَن طَهِّرَا بَيْتِيَ لِلطَّائِفِينَ وَالْعَاكِفِينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجُودِ​

and when we made the house a place of return and assembly for the people, and as a safety, and to take (or take you) Abraham's station( or location/spot) of prayer and we made an agreement with Abraham and Ishmael to "Purify My house for the travelers and those who seek isolation, and bow and make prostration

Q 2:127

وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ​

and when Abraham and Ishamel raised the base (or foundation) of the house, (they said) Our Lord accept this from us, verily you are indeed the All Hearing, the Omniscient

There is not mention of "Abraham's shrine" in the text. The word shrine used in your translation is an interpolation of the translator

The Kaba was built for santurary purpose, or a house of worship where worshippers can turn to in reverence of G-d. This same pratice is found in the Bible:

Psalm 5:7

But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

Psalm 138:2

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

This is called in Arabic Qiblah or a direction of Prayer. Jews from all over the world when making prayer turn towards Jerusalem to which the remnant of the temple stands in their perspective.

If I was you Rut try reading other translations that may help clearify a particular verse that is in question. If it is not still clear to you then one of us will explain or clerify it from the text it self.

 

[Oxy2Hydr0]

The kabaa has not existed as long as muslims claim.. "Since the time of Adam." If that was the case, then 1. The Jews would have been going to the kabaa and praying towards it and such, and 2. Ancient documents would have spoken of it, but there have been none so far that say a such.

Thank you once again for another copy and paste work. It seems you lack the ability to produce a critical thesis of your own.

1) What sense does this make ? During the time of the Jews Makkah was already inhabited, and the Ka'abah was defiled by idols. G-d lead them to a place of safety after being inslaved in Egypt to which a new house was built exclusively to be used by them and for it to be maintianed by.

Makkah is 4 times the distance to travel from the land which they were established in.

2) Again another nonsence statement. The Ka'abah is prehistoric. Historical documents go all the way back to 500BC and even at this time it was noted as a well established shrine known by all Arabs The History of the Ka'abah thus placing its date even further back to have been given such popularity in penensula.

Never though did Christians go around the kabaa, nor Jews.

Because they were not allowed in the city by the Makkan leader in the pre-Islamic of fear of proselytizing that would hurt their business.

Your very own Bible mentions Makkah ie Bakkah in Hebrew "Baka"(baca) with a house. Your commentators did a very good job in sugar coating it to be some location in Palestine which is not even on no map.

The fact remains the ONLY place on earth that exist and has existed with PROOF that is called Baca or Baka that is a valley in which there is a house of worship resides ONLY in modern day Makkah formally called Bakkah in Arabic.

 

[Rut]

The problem here is the translation. This is what it says to me based on both Warsh and Hafs reading of the Arabic text of teh Quran:

Q 2:125

وَإِذْ جَعَلْنَا الْبَيْتَ مَثَابَةً لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَمْناً وَاتَّخِذُواْ مِن مَّقَامِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ مُصَلًّى وَعَهِدْنَا إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ أَن طَهِّرَا بَيْتِيَ لِلطَّائِفِينَ وَالْعَاكِفِينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجُودِ​

and when we made the house a place of return and assembly for the people, and as a safety, and to take (or take you) Abraham's station( or location/spot) of prayer and we made an agreement with Abraham and Ishmael to "Purify My house for the travelers and those who seek isolation, and bow and make prostration

Q 2:127

وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ​

and when Abraham and Ishamel raised the base (or foundation) of the house, (they said) Our Lord accept this from us, verily you are indeed the All Hearing, the Omniscient

There is not mention of "Abraham's shrine" in the text. The word shrine used in your translation is an interpolation of the translator

The Kaba was built for santurary purpose, or a house of worship where worshippers can turn to in reverence of G-d. This same pratice is found in the Bible:


This is called in Arabic Qiblah or a direction of Prayer. Jews from all over the world when making prayer turn towards Jerusalem to which the remnant of the temple stands in their perspective.

If I was you Rut try reading other translations that may help clearify a particular verse that is in question. If it is not still clear to you then one of us will explain or clerify it from the text it self.

Thank you very much for this.I shall look into this little more tomorrow and meditate over it

 

[ShyMuslim]

Thank you once again for another copy and paste work. It seems you lack the ability to produce a critical thesis of your own.

1) What sense does this make ? During the time of the Jews Makkah was already inhabited, and the Ka'abah was defiled by idols. G-d lead them to a place of safety after being inslaved in Egypt to which a new house was built exclusively to be used by them and for it to be maintianed by.

Makkah is 4 times the distance to travel from the land which they were established in.

2) Again another nonsence statement. The Ka'abah is prehistoric. Historical documents go all the way back to 500BC and even at this time it was noted as a well established shrine known by all Arabs The History of the Ka'abah thus placing its date even further back to have been given such popularity in penensula.



Because they were not allowed in the city by the Makkan leader in the pre-Islamic of fear of proselytizing that would hurt their business.

Your very own Bible mentions Makkah ie Bakkah in Hebrew "Baka"(baca) with a house. Your commentators did a very good job in sugar coating it to be some location in Palestine which is not even on no map.

The fact remains the ONLY place on earth that exist and has existed with PROOF that is called Baca or Baka that is a valley in which there is a house of worship resides ONLY in modern day Makkah formally called Bakkah in Arabic.

Mash'Allah brother!!! I wish I had half of the scholarly and historical knowledge you do.

~Sarah

 

[français]

Thank you once again for another copy and paste work. It seems you lack the ability to produce a critical thesis of your own.

Where do you see anything that I copied and pasted? *Rolls eyes*

1) What sense does this make ? During the time of the Jews Makkah was already inhabited, and the Ka'abah was defiled by idols. G-d lead them to a place of safety after being inslaved in Egypt to which a new house was built exclusively to be used by them and for it to be maintianed by.

Makkah is 4 times the distance to travel from the land which they were established in.

2) Again another nonsence statement. The Ka'abah is prehistoric. Historical documents go all the way back to 500BC and even at this time it was noted as a well established shrine known by all Arabs The History of the Ka'abah thus placing its date even further back to have been given such popularity in penensula.

1. So why would God be so unsuccessful, as to make a freaking kabaa and have it unhabited, and later have it taken over by pagans. And you call that Gods house? LOL

2.Yes, but it does not go as far back as muslims claim (during the time of adam.) Sorry bro, but Adam came way before 500 BC.

Your very own Bible mentions Makkah ie Bakkah in Hebrew "Baka"(baca) with a house. Your commentators did a very good job in sugar coating it to be some location in Palestine which is not even on no map.

The fact remains the ONLY place on earth that exist and has existed with PROOF that is called Baca or Baka that is a valley in which there is a house of worship resides ONLY in modern day Makkah formally called Bakkah in Arabic.

Ok well instead of sitting around saying things, show me proof from the Bible! Show me where it says that.

Oh, but then again, you love to twist and turn things around. You are the one who stupidly claimed that the "gospel of barnabas" was authentic LOL. Hah, and you expect me to believe you after you make such a hideous claim? Get real.

EDIT: Oh let me guess, you are going to quote Psalms 84.. LOL

Let us see what it says..

Muslim Claim :
ov.rei be.e.mek ha.ba.kha ma.yan ye.shi.tu.hu gam-be.ra.khot ya.te mo.re:

As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
(Psalm 84:6)

However, what we have to ask our selves is what does ha.ba.kha mean? Well, let us see where his is used elsewhere within the Bible.

va.yish.al od da.vid be.lo.him va.yo.mer lo ha.e.lo.him lo ta.a.le a.kha.rei.hem ha.sev me.a.lei.hem u.va.ta la.hem mi.mul ha.be.kha.im:

so David inquired of God again, and God answered him, "Do not go straight up, but circle around them and attack them in front of the balsam trees. (1 Chronicles 14:14)

So if muslims were to take it that he.be.kha were to mean "mecca", then let us see how this verse would sound.

So David inquired of God again, and God answered him, "Do not go straight up, but circle around them and attack them in fron of mecca."

vi.hi ke.sham.a.kha et-kol ha.tse.a.da be.ra.shei ha.be.kha.im az te.tse va.mil.kha.ma ki-ya.tsa ha.e.lo.him le.fa.nei.kha la.ha.kot et-ma.kha.ne fe.lish.tim:

As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the balsam trees, move out to battle, because that will mean God has gone out in front of you to strike the Philistine army." (1 Chronicles 14:15)

Muslims would have to make this say: As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of mecca, move out to battle, because that will mean God has come out in front of you to strike the Philinstine army.

va.yish.al da.vid ba.a.do.nai va.yo.mer lo ta.a.le ha.sev el-a.kha.rei.hem u.va.ta la.hem mi.mul be.kha.im:

so David inquired of the LORD, and he answered, "Do not go straight up, but circle around them and attack them in front of the balsam trees. (2 Samuel 5:23)

muslims would have to have it like this : So David inquited of the LORD, and He answered, "Do not go straight up, but circle around them and attack them in front of mecca."
> Make any sense?

vi.hi be.sham.a.kha ke.sham.a.kha et-kol tse.a.da be.ra.shei ha.be.kha.im az te.khe.rats ki az ya.tsa a.do.nai le.fa.nei.kha le.ha.kot be.ma.kha.ne fe.lish.tim:

As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the balsam trees, move quickly, because that will mean the LORD has gone out in front of you to strike the Philistine army." (2 Samuel 5:24)

muslims would say: As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of mecca, move quickly, because that will mean the LORD has gone out in front of you to strike the philistine army.
>> Once again - make any sense?

2 Samuel 5:18
18 Now the Philistines had come and spread out in the Valley of Rephaim;
>> The valley of Rephaim is near Jerusalem.
David then attacked them "in front of the balsam trees." - So if we accept that baca means mecca, then it would make no sense what so ever.

Also..

They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion. (Psalm 84:7)

Now what is Zion? The TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM!

Now I did not copy and paste this, not this time.. So please, save your rheteric. Thank you.

CONCLUSION: It would appear that the MUSLIMS are trying to sugar coat their claims (as they always do.)

 

[Rut]

The problem here is the translation. This is what it says to me based on both Warsh and Hafs reading of the Arabic text of teh Quran:

Q 2:125

وَإِذْ جَعَلْنَا الْبَيْتَ مَثَابَةً لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَمْناً وَاتَّخِذُواْ مِن مَّقَامِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ مُصَلًّى وَعَهِدْنَا إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ أَن طَهِّرَا بَيْتِيَ لِلطَّائِفِينَ وَالْعَاكِفِينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجُودِ​

and when we made the house a place of return and assembly for the people, and as a safety, and to take (or take you) Abraham's station( or location/spot) of prayer and we made an agreement with Abraham and Ishmael to "Purify My house for the travelers and those who seek isolation, and bow and make prostration

Q 2:127

وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَاهِيمُ الْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَاعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّا إِنَّكَ أَنتَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ​

and when Abraham and Ishamel raised the base (or foundation) of the house, (they said) Our Lord accept this from us, verily you are indeed the All Hearing, the Omniscient

There is not mention of "Abraham's shrine" in the text. The word shrine used in your translation is an interpolation of the translator

The Kaba was built for santurary purpose, or a house of worship where worshippers can turn to in reverence of G-d. This same pratice is found in the Bible:


This is called in Arabic Qiblah or a direction of Prayer. Jews from all over the world when making prayer turn towards Jerusalem to which the remnant of the temple stands in their perspective.

If I was you Rut try reading other translations that may help clearify a particular verse that is in question. If it is not still clear to you then one of us will explain or clerify it from the text it self.

When I have read this during the night it come up a question about this.
if that was so why must the Israeli build a Temple for nearly thge same reason? Why say it in the Bible that even the Christian shall be in the spirital Tempel? For me it`s look like the tempel are more imortant then this place.
God don`t lie or chance his mind so this much have somewhere some deeper meaning then