k1 chart - open for discussion

[DavidPT]

Newsflash! Cyrus lets Jews go home!
The latest from the newsroom is that here in 538 BC, King Cyrus - father of many nations - let the Jews go home! As the Britannica says:

Although the Jews suffered greatly and faced powerful cultural pressures in a foreign land, they maintained their national spirit and religious identity. Elders supervised the Jewish communities, and Ezekiel was one of several prophets who kept alive the hope of one day returning home. This was possibly also the period when synagogues were first established, for the Jews observed the Sabbath and religious holidays, practiced circumcision, and substituted prayers for former ritual sacrifices in the Temple. The degree to which the Jews looked upon Cyrus the Great as their benefactor and a servant of their God is reflected at several points in the Hebrew Bible—e.g., at Isaiah 45:1–3, where he is actually called God’s anointed.

Ezekiel 38-39 involves the last days. The last days don't begin prior to the first coming of Christ. The last days begin after the first coming of Christ. We have been in the last days for almost 2000 years not 2500 years.

 

[DavidPT]

I was not proving his point, but clarifying why there are no 7 years follow Revelation 20:8-9. BECAUSE the Revelation 20:8-9 event is NOT the Ezekiel 38-39 event.

That would be true only if there is a battle involving Gog and his multitude prior to the thousand years and another battle involving Gog and his multitude after the thousand years. But if there is only one battle, and that it is after the thousand years, you already agree there is no 7 years following that battle. Of course though, you don't agree that there is only one battle and that it is after the thousand years. And neither do I agree, yet I have to wonder why I do because now I have to explain why the Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 is not the same Gog/Magog in Revelation 20, except I can't explain that. Can you?

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I believe that will be in 2040.

And what would be the purpose of these supposed sacrifices and offerings? This is at least the third time I've asked you this. Is there some reason why you won't answer this question? Until you do, I can only assume that you have no answer for it.

IMHO it is because those who follow that line of understnding do not understnd the plan of salvation laid out on the temple as described in the old testement as a shadow of ministry, death andwork as high priest of Jesus Christ our Lord,

 

[Original Happy Camper]

That there is a literal 7 years in Revelation is by the first half and second half components of it given in the text.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

second half
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5


View attachment 317734

Time, times and half a time, 42 months, and 1260 days are all the same time period written in different forms. This can be deduced from Hebrew parallelism.

 

[Douggg]

Time, times and half a time, 42 months, and 1260 days are all the same time period written in different forms. This can be deduced from Hebrew parallelism.

They are not the same length of time in bible prophecy. Look at the chart. The 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony is 1260 days. The seven years is 2520 days long. The exact mid point is day 1260.

They are killed, the world celebrates their deaths, but the two witnesses come back to life 3 1/2 days later and ascend to heaven. Leaving 1256 1/2 days in the 2520 day 7 years.

That 1256 1/2 days is called 42 months, that the beast will rule unimpeded by the two witnesses who will be gone from the earth.

 

[Douggg]

And neither do I agree, yet I have to wonder why I do because now I have to explain why the Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38-39 is not the same Gog/Magog in Revelation 20, except I can't explain that. Can you?

See my post #23 in this thread.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

They are not the same length of time in bible prophecy. Look at the chart. The 1260 days of the two witnesses testimony is 1260 days. The seven years is 2520 days long. The exact mid point is day 1260.

They are killed, the world celebrates their deaths, but the two witnesses come back to life 3 1/2 days later and ascend to heaven. Leaving 1256 1/2 days in the 2520 day 7 years.

That 1256 1/2 days is called 42 months, that the beast will rule unimpeded by the two witnesses who will be gone from the earth.View attachment 317737

your chart is in error you need to study the french revolution
The Bible and the French Revolution

REV
11:3-4 “The two witnesses,” which are said to be “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks,” represent the Old and New Testaments. The olive trees represent the power of the Holy Spirit. The candlesticks symbolize the spiritual light of the scriptures. Psalm 119:105; Zechariah 4:1-14. The two witnesses were to “prophesy…in sackcloth,” symbolizing mourning. The Bible was not readily available to the common people. There are several reasons for this:

1. It was only available in Hebrew, Greek and Latin;
2. It had to be copied by hand so there were few copies;
3. During religious services both scripture reading and sermons were in Latin;
4. The church’s stance was that since the common people could not understand the Bible, the clergy must interpret it for them;
5. Even after the Bible was translated into the common language of the people, the church forbade them to read it.

Revelation 11 Commentary

 

[Douggg]

your chart is in error you need to study the french revolution
The Bible and the French Revolution

REV
11:3-4 “The two witnesses,” which are said to be “two olive trees” and “two candlesticks,” represent the Old and New Testaments. The olive trees represent the power of the Holy Spirit. The candlesticks symbolize the spiritual light of the scriptures. Psalm 119:105; Zechariah 4:1-14. The two witnesses were to “prophesy…in sackcloth,” symbolizing mourning. The Bible was not readily available to the common people. There are several reasons for this:

1. It was only available in Hebrew, Greek and Latin;
2. It had to be copied by hand so there were few copies;
3. During religious services both scripture reading and sermons were in Latin;
4. The church’s stance was that since the common people could not understand the Bible, the clergy must interpret it for them;
5. Even after the Bible was translated into the common language of the people, the church forbade them to read it.

Revelation 11 Commentary

I updated the chart to include the time/times/half time

___________________________________________________________________

The commentary is wrong about who the two witnesses are. The two witnesses, after their 1260 days of testimony, will be killed and their bodies lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem, as the world celebrated their deaths for 3 1/2 days.

At the end of the 3 1/2 days, the two witnesses come back to life, and called up to heaven as the world looks on. Nothing like that has happened in history.

 

[eclipsenow]

But not in the latter years, latter days. Ezekiel 38:8. Ezekiel 38:16.

It certainly was later than Ezekiel's own life

 

[eclipsenow]

Ezekiel 38-39 involves the last days

.
Why? Seriously? The Jews were currently in captivity and then the king of Persia sets them free to go home!

It sounds like people here need to see how layered prophecy is. There were partial small-scale fulfilments of old testament prophecy in the Old testament. God rescues the Israelites from Egypt, and they go into the promised land. But then the book of Hebrews in the New testament tells us that Abraham looked to a heavenly kingdom! What are we to make of that? Layered prophecy that just gets bigger in the new testament!

 

[eclipsenow]

That there is a literal 7 years in Revelation is by the first half and second half components of it given in the text.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

second half
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5

Except 3.5 years is half 7.
7 means God's perfect amount of time.
3.5 years means a time cut short - or a limited amount of time.

Almost NONE of this is literal. It's like going to Shakespeare to learn how to run a computer - or reading Lord of the Rings to build an aeroplane. It's just plain wrong.

 

[Douggg]

Except 3.5 years is half 7.
7 means God's perfect amount of time.
3.5 years means a time cut short - or a limited amount of time.

Almost NONE of this is literal. It's like going to Shakespeare to learn how to run a computer - or reading Lord of the Rings to build an aeroplane. It's just plain wrong.

3.5 or 3 1/2 years is not a term stated in Revelation. The "time/times/half times" is the closest thing to it, but is not "exactly'' 3 1/2 years.

btw, you can mouse over the chart, right click, and select "open in new tab". A new tab will appear at the top of your screen. Click on that to view the chart in the new tab.

You can then mouse over the chart picture in the new tab, right click, and select "save as", which a dialogue box will come up where you select what folder in you computer you want to save the chart picture to. I would suggest your picture folder. Or a sub folder within your picture folder. Select "save", click, and it will be saved into to your computer, to whatever folder you chose.

@keras, are you reading this?

 

[rwb]

3.5 or 3 1/2 years is not a term stated in Revelation. The "time/times/half times" is the closest thing to it, but is not "exactly'' 3 1/2 years.

Neither is seven years.

 

[Douggg]

Neither is seven years.

I agree. The components of the seven years though are there. I created a thread concerning those components

Components of the seven years in Revelation chart

 

[rwb]

I agree. The components of the seven years though are there. I created a thread concerning those components

Components of the seven years in Revelation chart

Sorry Doug, but "created" is the perfect word to describe your chart. I should add created with a bias toward the doctrine you believe you are proving.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry Doug, but "created" is the perfect word to describe your chart. I should add created with a bias toward the doctrine you believe you are proving.

Certainly biased toward my eschatology view of the sequence of events of the end times.

If I were presenting someone's else's view, I would be stating so - like in the k1 chart thread opening post.

 

[rwb]

Certainly biased toward my eschatology view of the sequence of events of the end times.

If I were presenting someone's else's view, I would be stating so - like in the k1 chart thread opening post.

That's not the point Doug. We all present what we believe is truth from the Bible. It doesn't matter whether you use your chart or any other. Just putting up a chart and saying this is when this will occur, or this is what happens next is NOT proving from the Bible what you say you have derived from the Bible. We all make assumptions, but assumptions without biblical proof are simply that...Assumptions, but not necessarily truth.

 

[Douggg]

That's not the point Doug. We all present what we believe is truth from the Bible. It doesn't matter whether you use your chart or any other. Just putting up a chart and saying this is when this will occur, or this is what happens next is NOT proving from the Bible what you say you have derived from the Bible. We all make assumptions, but assumptions without biblical proof are simply that...Assumptions, but not necessarily truth.

I agree that there has to be biblical rationale behind whatever a chart shows. I have never said any chart in and of itself is proof. The charts are to promote understanding - not proof.

The chart reflects that there are three different time expressions used in Revelation - and not just one of 1260 days.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

but is not "exactly'' 3 1/2 years.

what is it then?

 

[Douggg]

what is it then?

3 1/2 years - exactly - is 1260 days. 1260 days is the most precise expression.

`There is not a set number of days to the expression "time/times/half time". It is close to 1260 days but not exactly. And it varies (in actual days) depending where it is used in the bible.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The time/times/half time in that verse is from when the person claims to have achieved God-hood until Jesus returns.



Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The time/times/half time in that verse is from the beginning of the time of trouble (verse 1) not like anything in Israel's history until Jesus returns. i.e. the great tribulation. Which will last 1335 days, as indicated by Daniel 12:12.



Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The time/times/half time in that verse is from when Satan is cast down to earth, intensifying the great tribulation because he has great wrath knowing that his time is short - to Jesus's return.


All three places where the time/times/half time are stated - all end with Jesus's return.