k1 chart - open for discussion

[Douggg]

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Isaiah 66:18b-19 I am going to gather people of every tongue, they will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on them and some of these survivors I will send out to the nations, to proclaim My Gospel among them. They will go to distant places that have not heard of My glory.
Irrefutable proof that this happens before the Return, as then: every eye shall see Him. Revelation 1:7
These people are only the believers in Jesus, Jew and Gentiles.

The Lord’s people, all faithful Christians, are gathered from all parts of the earth. 12,000 are selected from each of the 12 assigned groups and sent out to proclaim the good news of the coming Kingdom of God. Revelation 7:3-8 & 14:1-7, Isaiah 49:6.

Isaiah 66:20-21 From every nation, your people will be brought, on every kind of conveyance, coming as an offering to the Lord on His holy mountain. They will come to Jerusalem, just as the ancient Israelites brought their grain offerings. The Lord will select some of them to be His priests. Psalms 107:1-43, Rev 5:10

Soon after the Lord’s Day of vengeance, all the Lord’s people, will be motivated to emigrate to the holy Land. Ezekiel 36:10-12, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Isaiah35:1-10, Jeremiah 30:10-14. They will live there in great prosperity and peace for several years, until the Anti-Christ comes to power. He will break his 7 year treaty of peace with Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, and take control of the country, sitting in the Temple. This will start the 3½ year Tribulation period. The faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety during this time. Zechariah 14:2b, Revelation 12:14.

Then Jesus Christ will Return in His glory, to reign for 1000 years.

The holy Land is all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Genesis 15:18
I refer to the faithful Christians. Many who say they are Christian' are not.

keras, those verses are not instructions for Christians to move to the land of Israel. No pastor or preachers are giving sermons for Christians to do so.

 

[Douggg]

What you fail to take note of, is the fact that God separated the original nation of Israel into 2 groups; the House of Israel, the 10 Northern tribes and the House of Judah. Only Judah is a visible entity today.
Israel remains scattered around the world. They have not yet rejoined: Ezekiel 37 remains unfulfilled. Jesus came to save the House of Israel, He was successful and we Christians are the result.

So the word Israel, used in the scriptures that you posted, refers the the Christian Israelites of God. The Overcomers for God; His actual people who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus and who keep the Commandments.
Thinking that God's Promises belong exclusively to the Jews, makes a mockery of the teachings of the new Testament.

What you also miss, is the many Prophesies that say the apostate and Jesus rejecting Jews, will be Judged and punished and only a remnant will survive.
So the word 'Israel', used in the Prophesies you quoted, cannot apply to the people who call their nation Israel. If anything their nation should be called Judah. As David ben Gurion did want to call it.

An Israelite simply means an overcomer for God. Isn't that what you and I are?

In David's insertion of saved Christians into the text....

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the saved Christians went into captivity for their iniquity:

Really, keras?

 

[eclipsenow]

In David's insertion of saved Christians into the text....

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the saved Christians went into captivity for their iniquity:

Really, keras?

You mean there are actually moments where we must respect the original intention of the Old testament author? We've actually got to appreciate the unfolding Covenant of God in the different stages it appears to us in? Why this sounds like Biblical Theology - I'm shocked! I totally agree with your points here Douggg.

 

[Timtofly]

Nero killed Peter and Paul.

You are being too literal with your speculations.

Only according to a rewriting of History. Peter actually wrote from Babylon, not Rome.

You are not being literal enough. Perhaps Nero symbolically killed Peter?

 

[keras]

keras, those verses are not instructions for Christians to move to the land of Israel. No pastor or preachers are giving sermons for Christians to do so.

No pastor, or only a very few; ever speak on end times prophecy.
And when they do, it is most often a false teaching, like the 'rapture to heaven'.

There is plenty of prophecy, OT and NT, which proves that the holy Land is our heritage. Ephesians 3:6

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the saved Christians went into captivity for their iniquity:

And the godless peoples will know that the spiritual ancestors of the Christian peoples, were sent into exile because they failed to obey God or to keep His Commandments. Ezekiel 39:23 paraphrased and expanded.

But that exile was for a decreed time period: Ezekiel 4:4-5, and He is watching over them: Amos 9:9
He sent Jesus to save them and we Christians are the result.
It is our honour and privilege to be the people who will prove the success of God's plan to have a people, who have freely chosen to believe in Jesus and who produce the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[trophy33]

Only according to a rewriting of History. Peter actually wrote from Babylon, not Rome.

You are not being literal enough. Perhaps Nero symbolically killed Peter?

Peter (or possibly James) - a witness for Jews.

Paul - a witness for Gentiles.

 

[eclipsenow]

Peter (or possibly James) - a witness for Jews.

Paul - a witness for Gentiles.

Yet both ultimately agreeing on the core definitions of who God's people are now after the gospel events.

Peter wrestled a lot with the gentiles coming into the kingdom of God, but ultimately agreed that the food laws could be dropped in favour of the gospel going out into all the world. And eventually even he offered up the following definition of God's people, which seems to be all gospel and no lingering promises for any other groups.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.​

 

[trophy33]

Yet both ultimately agreeing on the core definitions of who God's people are now after the gospel events.

Peter wrestled a lot with the gentiles coming into the kingdom of God, but ultimately agreed that the food laws could be dropped in favour of the gospel going out into all the world. And eventually even he offered up the following definition of God's people, which seems to be all gospel and no lingering promises for any other groups.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.​

I think Peter was being influenced by James, a bit. Even though Peter should officially lead the apostles and be their head, it seems that James eventually got a lot of power in Jerusalem.

 

[Douggg]

There is plenty of prophecy, OT and NT, which proves that the holy Land is our heritage. Ephesians 3:6

The inheritance of Christians is eternal life. Stay focused.

 

[Timtofly]

I think Peter was being influenced by James, a bit. Even though Peter should officially lead the apostles and be their head, it seems that James eventually got a lot of power in Jerusalem.

Peter did what God told him to do. He traveled the whole Roman Empire feeding the sheep of Israel.

 

[trophy33]

Peter did what God told him to do. He traveled the whole Roman Empire feeding the sheep of Israel.

Certainly not the whole Roman Empire.

Peter's journeys:

https://thebiblejourney.org/biblejourney1/7-journeys-of-jesuss-followers/peters-journeys/

 

[Timtofly]

Certainly not the whole Roman Empire.

Peter's journeys:

https://thebiblejourney.org/biblejourney1/7-journeys-of-jesuss-followers/peters-journeys/

Peter did not stop in Rome. He kept moving, the whole empire: Germany, Britain, Spain, North Africa, Egypt, ending in Babylon. Literally the whole empire. What makes you think Peter ever stopped obeying God? So he could be the first "Pope" in some "rewriting of history" to prove erroneous interpretation of Scripture?

 

[trophy33]

Peter did not stop in Rome. He kept moving, the whole empire: Germany, Britain, Spain, North Africa, Egypt, ending in Babylon. Literally the whole empire. What makes you think Peter ever stopped obeying God? So he could be the first "Pope" in some "rewriting of history" to prove erroneous interpretation of Scripture?

Why are you posting baseless speculations? Not useful.

 

[Timtofly]

Why are you posting baseless speculations? Not useful.

Why are you posting lies from people rewriting history to support their biased opinions?

God gave Peter a job to do. The Roman Catholic church did not give Peter a job to do several hundred years after the fact.

My point comes from Scripture and no bias at all, unless obedience to God is a bias.

You speculate history into The Scripture constantly. Of course the rewriters of history will suppress the truth out of history and change the narrative to fit their bias. They could not remove the truth from God's Word. Only private interpretation would be used to misinform people. I literally have no agenda driving my interpretation other than pointing out truth.

 

[trophy33]

Why are you posting lies from people rewriting history to support their biased opinions?

God gave Peter a job to do. The Roman Catholic church did not give Peter a job to do several hundred years after the fact.

My point comes from Scripture and no bias at all, unless obedience to God is a bias.

You speculate history into The Scripture constantly. Of course the rewriters of history will suppress the truth out of history and change the narrative to fit their bias. They could not remove the truth from God's Word. Only private interpretation would be used to misinform people. I literally have no agenda driving my interpretation other than pointing out truth.

If you have no sources to post, then I do not see any usefulness in continuing to react to this.

 

[keras]

The inheritance of Christians is eternal life. Stay focused.

Eventually; yes.
But what we are discussing is what must happen before Eternity.

Why does anybody object to going to live in the holy Land? Especially when our own countries will become uninhabitable by the fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis of the Lord's Day of wrath.
Psalms 107:1-43 Give thanks, you who are redeemed by the Lord, saved from the power of the enemy and gathered from all of the world......He makes the desert bloom and gives the people a home...... Whoever is wise, take these things to heart.....

 

[Douggg]

Eventually; yes.
But what we are discussing is what must happen before Eternity.

Why does anybody object to going to live in the holy Land? Especially when our own countries will become uninhabitable by the fire, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis of the Lord's Day of wrath.
Psalms 107:1-43 Give thanks, you who are redeemed by the Lord, saved from the power of the enemy and gathered from all of the world......He makes the desert bloom and gives the people a home...... Whoever is wise, take these things to heart.....

keras, I go whereever the Lord decides.

Change of topics, go here...

Using Corel Paintshop Pro to make charts

 

[DavidPT]

Why does anybody object to going to live in the holy Land?

For one, in light of chapters such as Ezekiel 38-39 it does not make sense to do that prior to Jesus returning. After Jesus returns I then see it making sense, but not prior to Him returning, though.

As to me, I'm not arguing against going to the holy Land to live in it, I'm arguing against when that is initially meaning, and that you have it meaning before Christ even returns first. Replacement theology sometimes comes up in some of these discussions, and it seems to me if anyone is promoting replacement theology around here, it appears it is you, because you are apparently replacing unbelieving Jews with that of believing Christians in Ezekiel 38-39.

In order for that interpretation to logically work out, the house of Israel meant in those two chapters have to be expelled from this land first and not one single place in either of these 2 chapters does it have them being expelled from their land once they are gathered back into it. And BTW, that's exactly what started happening in the 20th century, they began being gathered back into their own land, except this time for forever.

 

[BillCody]

I think that Ezekiel 38-39 is most misinterpreted scripture in the whole Bible. The "unwalled", "at rest", "dwelling safely" and "without bars and gates" is Millennium talk if I ever heard it. To say it is present day Israel is just silly talk. The Gog/Magog war is a Millennium war. And we have two accounts of it - one in Revelation and the other in Ezekiel - two visions of the same war. I find that God repeats prophecy twice so that it's confirmed by two witnesses. The real question is why Israel is being lead to believe that Gog/Magog is about to happen. I think it is what causes them to join forces with the antichrist.

 

[keras]

keras, I go whereever the Lord decides.

He has already decided, but you and most Christians don't believe it.
Isaiah 65:9 My chosen people will inherit the holy Land..... Who are Christians, John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9

In order for that interpretation to logically work out, the house of Israel meant in those two chapters have to be expelled from this land first

It is the House of Judah, who currently occupy a small part of the holy Land.
Many Prophesies tell of their forthcoming Judgment and punishment; only a remnant will survive.
The best scripture that tells of this and how they can go back only by becoming Christian is:
Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the Way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.

This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people.

1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5

2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27

3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Followers of the right Way. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27

This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

I think that Ezekiel 38-39 is most misinterpreted scripture in the whole Bible. The "unwalled", "at rest", "dwelling safely" and "without bars and gates" is Millennium talk if I ever heard it. To say it is present day Israel is just silly talk. The Gog/Magog war is a Millennium war

Your ideas about the Gog attack, simply do not relate to the prophesies, as Written.
What seems to be so hard for people to see, is the tremendous change to the world which will happen when the Lord sends His fiery wrath to destroy His enemies. As Psalms 83 graphically describes. Plus 100 other Prophesies of the next to happen; terrible Sixth Seal event.
On that Day, the Lord will destroy or neutralize all weapons of war; Isaiah 34:2, Hosea 2:18, Haggai2:21-22, Jeremiah 49:35... Irans nuke missiles will explode on the ground. Psalms 7:12-16

And we have two accounts of it - one in Revelation and the other in Ezekiel - two visions of the same war.

The final battle of Revelation 20:7-9 is quit different in every way to the one Ezekiel 38 & 39 describe. Also Joel 2:20
Gog/Magog is merely used at the end of the Millennium, as a metaphor for an uncountable horde.